Egwene's Strategic Options

[Luckers]

how would telling them those things make them continue wanting to live when the singlemost important thing in their lives disappears? I believe the seanchean would still hold them prisoner, they would still be depressed due to the loss.

 

Saving the Tower helped Siuan and Leane, and this adds the promise of recovery. Besides this saves them from torture and degredation. Depression is not so bad as that.

 

Even were that not the case. Even were this dooming them. It still would not be evil for Egwene to do it any more than her striking down to'raken carrying Aes Sedai prisoners was evil.

 

Plus being stilled for the reason that they where captured, with no action plan to go get them and bring them back, the hall would never allow it

 

Why not? The action is not irreversible, and it forestalls the Seanchan gaining travelling. By what basis do you suggest the Hall wouldn't support this?

 

it would give egwene complete control and she would be a tyrant.

 

Why? Free sisters can protect their dreams so there is no presumption of this being used against them, and it would be asked of the hall, and decided by the hall. This would be neither autonomous nor tyrannical.

 

remember the shawl does not change the person and in fact achieving the shawl seems to make them more greedy and selfish. Whats to say that they wish to be diminished in the power and thus of status in front of others (if they where recovered)

 

Yes. Against degredation, torture and ultimate loss of self status amongst the sisterhood is important.

 

Besides, I actually do not suggest the Hall would grant them a decision in the matter. They are compromised, as unpleasent as that is.

 

yes one man accepted the evil, but I was refering to the people of aridhol, they did not accept it, a glib tongue fooled them into commiting atrocities and by being willing to do such horrors that doomed the city.

 

They did accept it in listening, just as Elaida did--and Brandon stated she was tainted by the evil. Egwene and Mat, meanwhile, resisted it. Mordeth, for that matter, was as much a victim as any one else. He meant well, but encountered something which tainted him.

 

The point is that the SL evil was an infection. It wasn't that they did evil actions and grew to be evil, it was that evil infected them exactly as it did Mat in the Eye of the World. And thus it is very different to this proposal. Egwene would not become evil by doing this.

[Hadilmir]

I'll say again, pulling someone into T'A'R is not Evil. Stop that whole argument. Second, Durinax, are you of the mind that killing a man intent on killing fifty people is in any way more evil than letting him kill those fifty people because killing is evil? If so, you would make a much better Tinker than Aes Sedai.

 

Anyways, as has been previously pointed out, T'A'R is inaccessible while wearing an a'dam, so the whole point is moot. =/

[Lambada]

There is a distinction between action and evil.  The Seanchan have enslaved Aes Sedai. That's monstrous. The Aes Sedai have every right to be perfectly monstrous back.

While enslaving anyone is monstorous, I can see situations when people / rulers might want it. Say if they thought the Aes Sedai were getting aggresive, and given their unique abilities, enslaving them is the only way to ensure their kingdoms are stable.

And you are wrong in your presentation. It is well known Aes Sedai do not tolerate agrievences against them. Thrones have fallen doing so, and they will tell you as much as often as they can. The Seanchan leash Aes Sedai. Nations will not panic should the Aes Sedai bitch slap them because of it. In fact they will expect it.

But Aes Sedai, since the Three Oaths, have never openly gone out and attacked anyone. They have manipulated countries into unstableness / set up a new rival. But this is different from openly attacking.

Not that this would satisfy that anyway. What non-channeler would appreciate the drawing in on a slave to a dream to cut them off from the One Power as a monstrous act?

Ahh, I see. We are talking about different theories. My original post was responding to farthammer's speculation that "If she could do that [pulling someone into TaR] why wouldn't she use the captured AS for information and strike at the sul`dam and other important seanchan?". I.e. she'd pull the AS into TaR and get information on where they are / important people they have seen, then physically strike against those important bases. Not severing AS from the source.

The Seanchan would be pissed, but its no less then their current perspective. As for the rest--the White Tower is wary of common opinion, but they'll not let it cripple them.

As we were talking about different theories, I don't think there is a need to address this point anymore.

[Durinax]

I'll say again, pulling someone into T'A'R is not Evil. Stop that whole argument. Second, Durinax, are you of the mind that killing a man intent on killing fifty people is in any way more evil than letting him kill those fifty people because killing is evil? If so, you would make a much better Tinker than Aes Sedai.

 

Anyways, as has been previously pointed out, T'A'R is inaccessible while wearing an a'dam, so the whole point is moot. =/

well if i could kill a murderer who is about to kill 50 people I would. but killing people because they may potentially kill or hurt me is wrong. plus in the story the seanchan realize the last battle is coming soon, as do the AS so they need to start working towards that end. besides killing the raiders who are retreating is perfectly acceptable. but egwene would also be stillign AS who dont know anything in particular, just becasue they could potentially know somethign they dont want revealed. thats like  bombing a PoW camp. or like when Ivon the terrible executed the people who built a palace or some such so they couldnt tell people where the secret passages where.

 

and stilling the AS would cause trauma also, and under the conditions ultimately lead to their deaths since I cant see the seanchan releasing people who were previously AS and channellers.

 

and luckers it would set a precedent, once she used her powers to still people for a legitimate reason then it becomes easier for her to order it done again, so in essence it becomes easier for her to still and exile people who know her secrets, lets say those who know she has coerced oaths from AS (funnily its ok for Egwene to do this but not Rand who has the escuse of taveren and their own free will, just realized that)

[farthammer]

It's evil because there are better alternatives.  Especially if it's for preventing the Seanchan from learning how to Travel, because then it just becomes an incentive to teach them in order to hopefully avoid that fate.  Healing someone who was stilled is not such a big secret anymore either and then you risk giving them channelers unbound by the three oaths.  A better bet would be to make captured sisters give oath to not reveal or use these weaves in TAR, or really just about anything besides stilling. 

 

[csarmi]

I'll say again, pulling someone into T'A'R is not Evil.

 

We don't know that. The wise ones think so, but they are not infallible. I think they're wrong on that point (and also might be wrong stating that entering the dream in the flesh takes your humanity). They might think so because Forsaken did it and memory of that remains still.

 

Besides, it is only a means. Hiw you USE it defines whether your action is evil.

 

Wise ones also teach that sometimes you have to do evil, as long as you are aware of/accept/pay the price.

 

BTW, there is no need to still anyone. Just make them swear as farthammer and I mentioned already.

[Hadilmir]

I'll say again, pulling someone into T'A'R is not Evil.

 

We don't know that. The wise ones think so, but they are not infallible. I think they're wrong on that point (and also might be wrong stating that entering the dream in the flesh takes your humanity). They might think so because Forsaken did it and memory of that remains still.

 

Besides, it is only a means. Hiw you USE it defines whether your action is evil.

 

Wise ones also teach that sometimes you have to do evil, as long as you are aware of/accept/pay the price.

You realize that you just paraphrased my earlier post, right?  :-\

 

Also, farthammer, you have a point. It's still a moot point anyway since the a'dam apparently prevents access to T'A'R. Or maybe Moghedien needed to channel to enter T'A'R, which would destroy all proof of such.

[Charlz Guybon]

If Aes Sedai go on the offensive, it wouldn't be that long before almost every nation would want them to be collared so their own nations can be 'saved' from the Aes Sedai.

 

Nobody will care if they attack the Seanchan, everyone's at war with thim.

[Random Man]

If Aes Sedai go on the offensive, it wouldn't be that long before almost every nation would want them to be collared so their own nations can be 'saved' from the Aes Sedai.

 

Nobody will care if they attack the Seanchan, everyone's at war with thim.

Additionally, who left is going to take the Seanchan side over the White Tower? Tarabon, Altara and Amadacia are already lost to Seanchan control and are probably better off for it. Arad Doman is a complete mess; if Ituralde returns (and I have a feeling he won't) they're not going to be taking the Seanchan side. The Borderlanders are off with their heads in the clouds, Elayne's ruling Andor, and Tear, Illian, Cairhien, Mayene and Ghealdan are all under Rand's control (directly or indirectly). Who's left? Murandy?

[gambril]

Nobody really seriously thinks Egwene's going to mount a rescue mission?  Granted it does seem possibly simply because some of those Aes Sedai taken captive had to have left a warder behind so locating them is simple enough.  And with Traveling they can easily intercept them.  But for whatever reasons, most likely the main reason for this rescue not happening is for plot reasons if you think about it.  The Seanchan need Traveling so things can get hectic here towards the end.  BWS already said that the Seanchan consider the raid a success simply due to acquiring Traveling.  So we know there will be no rescue mission.

 

Three biggest issues for Egwene at this time as I see it are:

 

1:  Needs to work out some deal with Rand and work with him.  I know there's a lot of tension surrounding this but it would be terrible and terribly disapointing if things just work out how they did at the end of the AoL with Rand assaulting the DO without some kind of compact with females.

 

2: She has to figure out how to deal with the Seanchan.  No idea how this will play out but will be very interesting to see.

 

3: At some point or another Mesaana is going to lash out and hopefully this isn't total doom for Egwene.

 

Egwene stepped up and took control of the helm at the end of the last book but she is far from being clear of the woods.  Her story arc is far from done in my opinion and will be very interesting to read and see how it all plays out.

[Random Man]

Nobody really seriously thinks Egwene's going to mount a rescue mission?  Granted it does seem possibly simply because some of those Aes Sedai taken captive had to have left a warder behind so locating them is simple enough.  And with Traveling they can easily intercept them.  But for whatever reasons, most likely the main reason for this rescue not happening is for plot reasons if you think about it.  The Seanchan need Traveling so things can get hectic here towards the end.  BWS already said that the Seanchan consider the raid a success simply due to acquiring Traveling.  So we know there will be no rescue mission.

He actually said the Seanchan consider the raid a success but were disappointed they didn't get the Aes Sedai superweapon (the explosion Elayne set off while trying to unravel a gateway) Egwene herself reflected that more captives had gotten away than she'd brought down. AFAIK, he hasn't said outright that the Seanchan have Traveling. I wouldn't doubt they'll get it from Suffa, though.

 

Another plot-related reason why a rescue probably won't happen is that Elaida is among one of the captives, and if she were rescued it might throw the Tower back into chaos; perhaps some of the Hall reconsider their decision to raise Egwene as too hastily dismissing the Tower's ability to rescue their Amyrlin. Of course, that brings up the political reasons against attempting a rescue: many Aes Sedai don't want her back, and would consider being rid of her worth compromising Traveling. Egwene would probably agree a unified Tower under her is worth letting the Seanchan have Traveling if they can get it from Elaida. Personally, I think that's letting politics carry the day over reason; Egwene knows how to counter the damane, and they could have easily gone and grabbed the captives in the days it took to fly back behind Seanchan lines. They lacked the desire to do so.

[farthammer]

The AS have no problem looking at someone who was Amyrlin one minute, and completely irrelevant the next, so I don't think Elaida factors into Egwene's decision making outside of her knowing Traveling.  Even if she did hold a major grudge, Elaida is just one of about 40 captives I think, so she's again not all that important.  I think Egwene's days of flying by the seat of her pants are pretty much over, I doubt she'll be running all over confronting the Seanchan.

 

She needs to secure the WT first, they are fighting two wars simultaneously - black ajah and seanchan. 

[Charles_Darwin]

All this rescue talk is interesting, and some nice theories here.

 

But it won't happen. Rand will declare peace with the Seanchan (The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south. ) and 'inform' Egwene she is not to attack them either, because the World needs to focus on TG.

 

She gets angry with him and that "wrath" thing that was foretold will happen. But she will see the sense of it, or Rand will declare to side with the Seanchan if the WT attacks, and then she will see sense.

Or something similar. An attack would also prevent that north/east vs. west/south prophecy.

 

Time for peace; time for TG. Light vs. Dark, and the Seanchan will fight for the Light.

[gambril]

All this rescue talk is interesting, and some nice theories here.

 

But it won't happen. Rand will declare peace with the Seanchan (The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south. ) and 'inform' Egwene she is not to attack them either, because the World needs to focus on TG.

 

She gets angry with him and that "wrath" thing that was foretold will happen. But she will see the sense of it, or Rand will declare to side with the Seanchan if the WT attacks, and then she will see sense.

Or something similar. An attack would also prevent that north/east vs. west/south prophecy.

 

Time for peace; time for TG. Light vs. Dark, and the Seanchan will fight for the Light.

 

I agree with this for the most part.  The only thing I disagree slightly with is Rand forcing a peace with the Seanchan.  Yes, it's pretty safe bet to assume this will happen someway or another.  But I don't think this compact with the Seanchan will soley be Rand and Tuon coming to this agreement.  This agreement will not work without Egwene's consent.  So somehow Egwene will be involved and for it to work, has to be involved.  I could be wrong but I think the 'Pattern' will agree with me.

 

I'm fairly certain that some kind of 'compact' will be formed between Seanchan and Randlands players but the events leading up to this meeting and who exactly will be there is curious.  It could be just Rand/Egwene/Tuon but this is pretty simple.  Maybe Rand won't even be there and it's Mat/Egwene/Tuon/Elayne. The possibilities are intriguing and the by-play of all these main characters together will be very fun indeed.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Egwene's opinion wont matter to the Seanchan, they still think she, and all AS need to be leashed, so it will most likly be something along the lines of Perrin's pact with Tylee.

 

Unless of course, the damane system falls, like its been forshadowed, then there will be no need for any conflict between the Tower and seanchan.

[Durinax]

I think that Egwene will start ranting and raving about how monstrous the seanhcan are with every mention of creating a pact with them for TG.

 

personnally I think rand will have to tell egwene to drop the hatred just as he is going to have to (somewhat) drop his mistrust of the AS (from them treating him as subhuman) this will be when we get the amyrlins anger bit because Egwene will get super pissed  at being told to drop her hatred of the Seanchan. I think that she is the main person standing in the way of everyone allying against the shadow

[Hadilmir]

I think that she is the main person standing in the way of everyone allying against the shadow

So the ones who just unprecedentedly raided a neutral organization to capture and enslave its inhabitants are relatively blameless? I'm thinking Tuon is the major player preventing an alliance. Still, Mat will force them to work together because he's awesome and whatnot. I wonder who will resist more, Egwene the Amyrlin or Tuon the Empress?  :-X

[Duskfire]

It will be a combination of Mat, Perrin and Egwene I imagine. Perrin winning over Tylee wasn't just a little subplot I imagine, but that something big will already come of it.

 

I think Egwene will have something to do with it because of her dream...

 

"Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan."

[farthammer]

Tuon is out counting how many hoots Owls make in the forest and only just recently discovered Trollocs are not fairy tales.  Rand should've just kidnapped her ass and dumped her in the Blight for a few days as an educational experience.

[wvlr2]

Tuon is out counting how many hoots Owls make in the forest and only just recently discovered Trollocs are not fairy tales.  Rand should've just kidnapped her ass and dumped her in the Blight for a few days as an educational experience.

With an a'dam around her neck!

 

I would love to see it, but it will not happen.

[Val Mickey]

Convert damane into da'covale by the Oath Rod.