Dreaming of Matwin Cauthon (TGS spoilers)

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

In TGS chapter 36, Verin and Mat strike a deal, a part of which is that Mat will take a letter from Verin and remain in Caemlyn for 30 days.  If he opens the letter, as part of the agreement, he must obey its instructions.

 

I don't think we have nearly enough information to do more than guess at exactly what Verin's letter to Mat will ask him to do.  But I'm posting this topic to see what people think about a possible connection to one of Egwene's Dreams.  In TPOD chapter 15, she Dreams of "Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended. . . . She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps."

 

Now, we know from a preponderance of storyline evidence and the cover art for TOM that Mat is going to the Tower of Ghenjei to rescue Moiraine Aes Sedai.  I wonder then if the two Aes Sedai that Mat is "weighing" in Egwene's Dream are Moiraine and Verin, ie, weighing Moiraine's rescue against Verin's request (either the request to wait in Caemlyn, or the request in the letter, assuming he opens it).

 

And, just to stir discussion, despite what I said earlier about not having "nearly enough information", one of the known connections between Verin and Mat is that she hid the Horn of Valere, and he blew it (haha).  So one possibility is that the letter contains instructions to find the Horn.

 

Admittedly, Verin and Moiraine are far from the only candidates for Mat's (I assume) symbolic scales.  Requests or needs from either Egwene or Elayne are also prominent possibilities.  This is just a Dream that I would like to see discussed some, since it seems likely to me that we are about to see its fulfillment in TOM.

[Duskfire]

Yeah I completely agree; Verins letter will contain something of interest and he has to choose whether to follow up on it or go after Moiraine (he will do the latter of course.) Mat has two prophecies concerning balance scales; the one where he weighs two Aes Sedai on balance scales, and where he places his own left eye on balance scales. The imagery is far too similiar for it not to mean something related.

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, I always took it to mean that he would have to choose between saving Moiraine and doing whatever's in Verin's letter.  Min had a viewing that Rand would fail without Moiraine, so the implication is that if he chooses Verin, Rand will fail and the DO will win, so the fate of the world rests upon his choice.  It is sort of a silly bit of suspense, since everyone knows that he's going after Moiraine and whatever Verin asks of him is going to be sidelined, but that's neither here nor there.

 

It's likely that something about where the Horn is will be in there, since the main connection between Verin and Mat is that he blew it and she knows where it is.

 

As a bit of a derail that's sort of related, what happened with Mat's Aes Sedai?  Did Verin teach them Travelling?  Did they go back to the White Tower or are they still hanging around with him?

[gambril]

Moiraine and Verin are the two likeliest possibilities but with Robert Jordan I don't think him choosing to go after Moiraine over Verin is the full jist of it.  Matrim's well established as a trickster and good bargainer with a side of luck.  Assuming he gets 3 more wishes again (doubtful) or just one wish to bargain with, he could possibly fulfill both Moiraine and Verin's request of him via this.  Who's to say?

 

I've seen a good few questions about the Finns and practically everyone was answered with RAFO which is exciting to think that TOM will actually answer as many of these as possible.

 

How in the world do those Finns get memories from people?

 

Are the Eelfinn and Aelfinn both in the TOG which would make sense.  So what kind of interraction between the two is there? If any?

 

How can those Snakey folks read a persons thread in the pattern?

 

Will we learn of how they view the Light/Shadow?  Indifference would seem to be the easiest answer but if the Shadow wins they wouldn't exist either right?

 

Maybe the Snakes will make a bargain with the Foxes to get Mat's group to re-establish another ter'angreal dooframe somewhere for them :)

 

Oh and a quick two questions that caught my attention...

 

1: Is it assumed that it took 7 days for the Foxes to "implant" Matrim's head with those memories?  Cuz when he goes through the Tear doorframe he's in and out in under and hour, but in the Foxes world for 7 days.

 

2: The second is the Snakes carried him and booted him out back through the doorframe.  This doesn't seem to be the case in how he "exited" the Foxes world.  They just seem to knock him out and he wakes up....yeah kinda strange

[DocBean]

Have we ever heard of someone visiting the Aelfin or Eelfin twice?

 

Don't the Wise Ones go through the doorways twice?

Obviously Moiraine is there a second time, maybe that's why they're holding her.

I'm just curious to see if they will let Mat have any more requests?

 

I always thought they were more like genies. You get three wishes/questions.

No wishing for more wishes! - no coming back again and wanting more!

 

Maybe it doesn't work that way, but I imagine the Fins will be upset to see Mat again.

[gambril]

Have we ever heard of someone visiting the Aelfin or Eelfin twice?

 

Don't the Wise Ones go through the doorways twice?

Obviously Moiraine is there a second time, maybe that's why they're holding her.

I'm just curious to see if they will let Mat have any more requests?

 

I always thought they were more like genies. You get three wishes/questions.

No wishing for more wishes! - no coming back again and wanting more!

 

Maybe it doesn't work that way, but I imagine the Fins will be upset to see Mat again.

 

No.  Mat's the only one that will have been there 3 times which is fitting since he's suppose to be King of the Underworld or something...and 3 is always significant in RJ's world, symbolism that kinda thing.

 

 

The Wise Ones go through 1 of 3 rings on there first trip and go through glass columns, similar to Rands trip I assume,  on their second trip (Avienda POV here por favor)

 

Moiraine did not go through there a second time which is why she was able to fall through the Ter'angreal doorframe with Lanfear in the first place.  Remember this doorframe was the one from Rhuidean, not Tear.  The assumed reasons she's being held is because she was channeling when she entered but who knows why for sure until TOM.

[Cirin]

Wise Ones go through the silver columns, I believe, not the Eelfinn ter'angreal.  Mat tried going through the Aelfinn one again, and it simply didn't work.  In order for him to get back in, he's going to have to actually find the door - thus the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

As for the Moiraine vs Verin idea, it's certainly a possibility.  Verin might have something important to tell Mat, not knowing about Moiraine, and he may have to choose.  The other possibility is that she might now about Moiraine, and just be working against them... I know she came clean and what not at the end... but it's kind of chilling to realize the only reason we think she was working against the Black Ajah from inside is because she said she was, and she killed herself.  She gave Egwene an incomplete list of Black Sisters, who fled the tower, and several random letters to people we don't know the contents of.  It's certainly possible that she is working against the Dark One, but you don't really know until you know, you know.

[StefanR]

I believe the letters Verin had set in forth motion things depending on different eventualities relating to her death, and she just handed one to Mat at random relying on his ta veren nature to take care of choosing the right one.

 

We see the Amirlyn have letters like this with the same sort of description when she gives Nynaeve and Egwene letters giving them the authority of the tower I believe. Although it might have been a different time, my memory on the scene is a little fuzzy.

[StringWinder]

 

1: Is it assumed that it took 7 days for the Foxes to "implant" Matrim's head with those memories?  Cuz when he goes through the Tear doorframe he's in and out in under and hour, but in the Foxes world for 7 days.

 

 

 

Huh?  Did I miss something?  I don't remember that trip taking a week?  He never slept, or ate while he was in there...

[Sentinel78]

 

1: Is it assumed that it took 7 days for the Foxes to "implant" Matrim's head with those memories?  Cuz when he goes through the Tear doorframe he's in and out in under and hour, but in the Foxes world for 7 days.

 

 

 

Huh?  Did I miss something?  I don't remember that trip taking a week?  He never slept, or ate while he was in there...

 

Rand and Mat are told when they return to the Aiel camp after their Rhuidean trip that they've been gone for 7 days.  Rand drops the waterbag in shock at realizing this -- neither him nor Mat had any idea it had been that long.  That's also why Lan is going nuts because Moiraine followed them in right afterwards and still hadn't returned. 

 

If Mat hadn't gone into the ter'angreal to Finnland in Rhuidean, he would have either starved to death, he would have gone in after Rand because he didn't know how long to expect Rand to be gone (and he would have died most likely) or he would have just headed back to the Aiel camp early without his memories (thereby sidestepping his fate and failing to fulfill his part at the Last Battle).

 

Chalk it up to ta'veren luck/chance that after 7 days, Rand hops out of his ter'angreal only minutes after Mat is taken back to Rhuidean and hanged by the Finns, just in time to give Mat some CPR.

[yoniy0]

This has been discussed many times. Just search for the wording of the Dream, you won't miss for results. For example: http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,42394.msg1114978.html#msg1114978

[Durinax]

eh I still think that mat being strung up was the first time he died, as said in prophecy I think he was strung up on the first day, and rand came out on the 7th and saved him

[mb]

Like another poster told, these things were discussed in many threads.

 

Directions to the Horn seems the most probable contents of the letter.  Other things Verin might not known about and/or would not need to tell Mat.

 

 

The 2 Aes Sedia choice, I would doubt Moiraine vs Verin.

A more probable choice would be who to be Rand's adviser (Moiraine vs Cadsuane).  Or maybe who to rule saidar channelers (Egwene vs Tuon).

The 2 Aes Sedia choice, I take relates to the Aelfinn prediction since the world is affected with both.

 

[Fains nose]

Time runs differently in finnland, i think there are RJ quotes to support this; therefore a couple of hours in finland equals 7 days in the real world, so Moiraine has only been in finland for like 40 hours

[Fains nose]

Time runs differently in finnland, i think there are RJ quotes to support this; therefore a couple of hours in finland equals 7 days in the real world, so Moiraine has only been in finland for like 40 hours

[FarShainMael]

@Durinax.. after hanging for seven days??

 

Rand couldn't have given him new life. What he did give him was CPR.

 

Are the Eelfinn and Aelfinn both in the TOG which would make sense.  So what kind of interraction between the two is there? If any?

 

In tSR Ch 28, there is mention of the 'realms' (plural) of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, and again in KoD Ch10 to the 'lands' (again, plural). so it seemes these realms/lands are separate. However, there's a reference in WH Ch 35 to Cyndane being 'held' by 'the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn' so presumably they do interact.

 

Cyndane appears to be Lanfear (though Demandred has his doubts; see WH Ch13, http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/wh/ch13.html) and if so, she appears to have died while being held, and reincarnated by the DO.

 

It seems very likely indeed that Cyndane is the new Lanfear, as evidenced by her PoV during the Cleansing; so how did she die?

 

From Moiraine we know that 'questions touching the Shadow have dire consequences' (tSR, Ch6). Exactly what those might be she doesn't say. The 'finns don't appear to be aligned to the DO, so presumably, when their realms are 'invaded' by a Forsaken, they would react, probably violently. So why was Lanfear 'held' rather than killed outright?

 

I'm wondering if perhaps the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn are none too friendly towards each other, if not at outright war, and maybe they fought over Lanfear, and she lost!

 

[Jillain Sanche]

Wasn't there some reference Verin made to Mat about his being in danger, related to the letter she left with him?

 

[algspkr]

Wasn't there some reference Verin made to Mat about his being in danger, related to the letter she left with him?

 

 

We have no more than guesses (mostly wild) what was in the letter, but she told him flat out that she got his picture from a darkfriend.

[Charlz Guybon]

Wasn't there some reference Verin made to Mat about his being in danger, related to the letter she left with him?

 

She probably got wind of Moridin's order to assassinate him.

[Sharaman]

The Doorway in Tear and the Doorway in Rhuidean lead to two different Finn realms.

The Tear-ites (snakes) read the future and answer three questions, the Rhuideanistas (foxes) offer three gifts.

Mat's been once to each realm.

He tried to go a second time through the Tear Door but failed.

 

The Tower of G connects to both Finn realms, which presumably connect to each other. It is apparently possible to go through that regardless of whether the person has been before but it's not clear whether anybody going through the ToG gets either wishes, or kisses.

 

The Wise Ones and Wannabe Chiefs don't go through the Doorway in Rhuidean at all. They run around the rings (only WOs) where they can see their alternative futures and the glass ter'angreals (both WO and chiefs) where they can see their ancestors' memories. 

 

Time runs differently in Finnland but it doesn't run backward - the natural laws are radically different according to an RJ quote.