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will the bad guys put up more of a fight this time?


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after the complete thrashing of the great lord's minions in the gathering storm, can the bunch of losers led by the most ineffectual deity this side of the ocean muster enough fight in them to actually hurt the forces of light?

 

i mean, i am so sick of seeing bad guys meeting their end after every book literally. AT this rate, there won't be anyone to fight at the last battle save for some worthless shadowspawn and dreadlords who could be over powered by callandor alone

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I was under the impression that the Forces of Light got quite a beating in TGS.

 

Two forsaken was killed, but in order to save himself from Semirhage, Rand channeled True Power, which is supposedly much stronger and much more addictive than the One Power. Rand also damaged the pattern severely by using a large amount of balefire to kill Graendal.

I hunch that there will be grave repercussions in the future from these two events alone.

 

Semirhage was captured already so her death was the natural course. We never seen Graendal die though. For all we know, she could have used a proxy and got away.

 

There are other things, such as Rand finally snapping and almost losing his sanity, or the White Tower and the Seanchan. Both sides got quite a beating. And both technically belongs to the Light.

 

I say the Dark Side ain't doing too bad.

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Yeah, but in individual terms the Forsaken have put up a fairly miserable show the last while. Mesaana? All of her 3000yrs of experience and Egwene has the place bang to rights. That's Halima/Arangar at a bit of a loose end too. Semi threw her glory away to have her jollies torturing Rand, and look how that worked out. Moggy and Cyndane are pretty much toothless now( has Moridin a cour'souvra for Cyndane as well as Moggy? Can't remember) I personally think Demandred has been hiding too long, and am apprehensive that his reveal will be a big damp squib.

Moridin is the only one of them with any promise. He'd wanna do somethin fun too. Of course the Lightfriends are still well capable of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory all on their own...

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Yeah, but in individual terms the Forsaken have put up a fairly miserable show the last while. Mesaana? All of her 3000yrs of experience and Egwene has the place bang to rights. That's Halima/Arangar at a bit of a loose end too. Semi threw her glory away to have her jollies torturing Rand, and look how that worked out. Moggy and Cyndane are pretty much toothless now( has Moridin a cour'souvra for Cyndane as well as Moggy? Can't remember) I personally think Demandred has been hiding too long, and am apprehensive that his reveal will be a big damp squib.

Moridin is the only one of them with any promise. He'd wanna do somethin fun too. Of course the Lightfriends are still well capable of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory all on their own...

I think there's a reason we haven't seen Moridin do much "fun" stuff yet. He doesn't think he has to at this point. RJ said that all the Shadow really has to do is hold on at this point (as of KoD). They don't have to score any big victories. They'll win by default unless Rand pulls something out of his...er...Mat's hat. Sure, the Forsaken haven't exactly lived up to their feared reputations. As far as the DO is concerned, they're just tools, anyway -- quite misguided ones who will be in for a surprise at the end if they survive, if Moridin is to be believed. In fact, if Moridin is to be believed, the DO has a motive for them to not survive once they've outlived their usefulness because they can't turn against him. If I'm knocking out my bedroom wall and I can't find my hammer, a rock will do just fine.

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I personally think Demandred has been hiding too long, and am apprehensive that his reveal will be a big damp squib.

 

Hmm... maybe Demandred won't ever show up, so they never have to explain what he was up to.  He could have been waiting with Graendal for Rand to come into her fortress, and gotten balefired along with her.  And no one will ever know...  ;)

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Yeah, but in individual terms the Forsaken have put up a fairly miserable show the last while. Mesaana? All of her 3000yrs of experience and Egwene has the place bang to rights. That's Halima/Arangar at a bit of a loose end too. Semi threw her glory away to have her jollies torturing Rand, and look how that worked out. Moggy and Cyndane are pretty much toothless now( has Moridin a cour'souvra for Cyndane as well as Moggy? Can't remember) I personally think Demandred has been hiding too long, and am apprehensive that his reveal will be a big damp squib.

Moridin is the only one of them with any promise. He'd wanna do somethin fun too. Of course the Lightfriends are still well capable of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory all on their own...

 

The one thing that I feel many readers forget is that the Forsaken are human. The oldest of them is perhaps 300 years old and for most of that they lived in an idyllic, peaceful, harmonious world. All of the Forsaken have very human flaws. Nowhere is it stated that they are omnipotent or for that matter competent. They were 13 of the most powerful channelers that went over to the DO. Some of them have special skill and are quite talented in certain areas. Most of them turned to the DO out of jealousy or some other petty human emotion that were brought about by the Bore being drilled. (The drilling of the bore was like opening Pandora’s Box, all kinds of unthinkable things were released with it.)

If you look at the Forsaken, without the prestige of their legacy, they are a pretty sorry lot. The only ones with truly useful skills, besides just channeling, would be Ishy, Sammel, Aginor, Demmy, and Semi. The rest were just bad guys and girls who were strong in the one power. They were probably more useful during the AoL, with all of the intrigues, politics and cultures that they were intimately familiar with.

3000 years have passed. They left a modern world at war. The world they find is completely changed in composition, cultures and technology (mundane and OP). Most of the Forsaken are completely unprepared to live and operate in a pre-industrial society.

They all understand power, lust, desire and ambition. What they don’t understand are the  cultures that exist today in Randland.  Most have flailed around, trying unsuccessfully to recreate the past. They have tried to do things as they would have in the AoL. Set up a powerbase, consolidate their power and influence. However, this hasn’t worked well in this time and place. They are used to an entire WORLD at war, not a small part of one continent. Things may seem spread out in Randland, but everything is very centralized. This has worked against the Forsaken time and again, more so since the rediscovery of Travelling.

All of the Forsaken who have died, have fallen to their pride and inability to adapt to current realities. They are all human and make human mistakes. The DO can only work with the tools at hand.

 

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I have a feeling that we are seeing some of the Forsaken, among others, be defeated easily to give a false sense of Shai'tan's strength in himself.  I'd be willing to wager, (maybe not an eye, but at least a copper), that the last battle will be heavy with casualities that we really don't want to see.  Especially and specifically at the hand of the dark one.

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I dont really expect Demandred's reveal (if he is revealed as someone other than himself) to be spectacular, i think we built it up to be. If he is revealed, it will be in a position that is for the logical advantage to the Shadow.

As for the Dark Side losing. well, its true that the Light has done alright in the last two books, but still, the borderlands are basically undefended (against the might of the blight) sspeaking of the blight, 100,000 trollocs were randomly sent to kill Rand. So i would say the trollocs would number in the millions. Darkfriends still infest every nation and will reek havoc. The white tower, true it is pretty cclean now, but theres still around 80 BA, plus other random DF channelers which i would say to be about another 50-300 at least among all of the other channeling groups. We have DF in the Black Tower, and we know that male channelers are much stronger (in raw power and destruction at least) than female channelers. Even when Logain mauls Taim, the dark AM arnt going to give up without decimating the Light AM. The seanchan/BT/WT/Rand/Andor are all different factions, none of them communicate and coordinate effectively, no matter that there a strong force, they arnt one force united (at least yet) so the Shadow can pick them off 1 by 1. and of course theres the DO himself, he is messing with the pattern, everything is unravelling, a strong force of Channelers cant compete with the DO's power. Also we are forgetting how the AS were pretty beat up by 300 odd Seanchan when they attacked the tower, so i wouldnt rely too much on them to be a challenge to millions of trollocs, thousands of myrddraal, worms, darkhounds, drakhar, crazy moving plants and what have you in the blight, not to mention the Gholam (although i assume its toast soon)

 

Also the main thing is, Rand really doesnt know how to actually win the LB yet, yea, he has an idea and hints from LTT memories how to seal the bore, but in actual fact nothing is certain.

 

So while the Light seems to be getting it together, i wouldnt say they were winning at all

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The light side isn't really any better. I mean the dark side were so close to winning in VoG, perhaps even when Rand channeled TP depending on what the DO ultimately wants Rand to do. Clearly DO needs something from Rand to win and that is the only thing he has been concentrating on leaving the forsaken to mostly do as they wish(which as you say is pretty much nothing useful).

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@ Barid - but Dem's reveal has to be spectacular, because he's been hidden this whole time. If he's only gonna show his *face* for the last act, he'd wanna be at least a surprise. Prob Roedran though. Actually, thinking now about why that's a bit...blah... Talmanes was only moderately impressed by Roedran. All of the Forsaken, with the exception of Moggy, have created better first impressions than that.

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Yeah, but in individual terms the Forsaken have put up a fairly miserable show the last while. Mesaana? All of her 3000yrs of experience and Egwene has the place bang to rights. That's Halima/Arangar at a bit of a loose end too. Semi threw her glory away to have her jollies torturing Rand, and look how that worked out. Moggy and Cyndane are pretty much toothless now( has Moridin a cour'souvra for Cyndane as well as Moggy? Can't remember) I personally think Demandred has been hiding too long, and am apprehensive that his reveal will be a big damp squib.

Moridin is the only one of them with any promise. He'd wanna do somethin fun too. Of course the Lightfriends are still well capable of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory all on their own...

 

The one thing that I feel many readers forget is that the Forsaken are human. The oldest of them is perhaps 300 years old and for most of that they lived in an idyllic, peaceful, harmonious world. All of the Forsaken have very human flaws. Nowhere is it stated that they are omnipotent or for that matter competent. They were 13 of the most powerful channelers that went over to the DO. Some of them have special skill and are quite talented in certain areas. Most of them turned to the DO out of jealousy or some other petty human emotion that were brought about by the Bore being drilled. (The drilling of the bore was like opening Pandora’s Box, all kinds of unthinkable things were released with it.)

If you look at the Forsaken, without the prestige of their legacy, they are a pretty sorry lot. The only ones with truly useful skills, besides just channeling, would be Ishy, Sammel, Aginor, Demmy, and Semi. The rest were just bad guys and girls who were strong in the one power. They were probably more useful during the AoL, with all of the intrigues, politics and cultures that they were intimately familiar with.

3000 years have passed. They left a modern world at war. The world they find is completely changed in composition, cultures and technology (mundane and OP). Most of the Forsaken are completely unprepared to live and operate in a pre-industrial society.

They all understand power, lust, desire and ambition. What they don’t understand are the  cultures that exist today in Randland.  Most have flailed around, trying unsuccessfully to recreate the past. They have tried to do things as they would have in the AoL. Set up a powerbase, consolidate their power and influence. However, this hasn’t worked well in this time and place. They are used to an entire WORLD at war, not a small part of one continent. Things may seem spread out in Randland, but everything is very centralized. This has worked against the Forsaken time and again, more so since the rediscovery of Travelling.

All of the Forsaken who have died, have fallen to their pride and inability to adapt to current realities. They are all human and make human mistakes. The DO can only work with the tools at hand.

 

 

These are all good points. Remember, we were weaned on their legend long before we began to discover the reality (much like the rest of randland) and that can certainly color expectation. They existed in a world where warfare was unknown, so any successful strategy was brilliant and have come forward into a land where wars have been fought for hundreds upon hundreds of years, breeding a more barbaric but more skilled warrior. At the same time, countless skills and talents go wasted in this new civilization they find themselves in for a variety of reasons - billionare finance bankers with more power than some governments would find themselves relatively useless if transported back in time to the Aztec or Incan Empires. World class computer hackers who are legends in this day and age wouldn't have much to offer the Roman Empire. Indeed, many skills necessary for survival in more primative times are lost to generations born into technology... and for all of our 'advancement', most of us would be pretty dead weight if we woke up tomorrow in medieval Europe.

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I still think that Taim is Demandred and have chosen to ignore all the unimpeachable evidence to contradict that idea.

 

 

You know, RJ saying that Demandred has never pretended to be Mazrim Taim isn't lying if he hadn't pretended to be Mazrim Taim at the point when RJ said that!  So maybe he is Taim NOW, but wasn't THEN!  It's brilliant!  Or maybe Taim is DEMANDRED, not the otherway around!  Brilliant!

 

Personally, though, I think we've got everything backwards.  Clearly Demandred is Olver, and Taim is Gaidal Cain.

 

As for the enemy putting up more of a fight... I'd almost guarantee things are going to look pretty bleak... especially as peoples loyalties become clear.  There might be a lot more Darkfriends then we think...

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I still think that Taim is Demandred and have chosen to ignore all the unimpeachable evidence to contradict that idea.

 

 

You know, RJ saying that Demandred has never pretended to be Mazrim Taim isn't lying if he hadn't pretended to be Mazrim Taim at the point when RJ said that!  So maybe he is Taim NOW, but wasn't THEN!  It's brilliant!  Or maybe Taim is DEMANDRED, not the otherway around!  Brilliant!

 

Personally, though, I think we've got everything backwards.  Clearly Demandred is Olver, and Taim is Gaidal Cain.

 

As for the enemy putting up more of a fight... I'd almost guarantee things are going to look pretty bleak... especially as peoples loyalties become clear.  There might be a lot more Darkfriends then we think...

 

Demandred is actually 3 entites

 

To'Raken (thast why the tower was attacked)

a Finn (obviously)

and a Tinker, He will lead an army of Tinkers against the world

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I was under the impression that the Forces of Light got quite a beating in TGS.

 

Two forsaken was killed, but in order to save himself from Semirhage, Rand channeled True Power, which is supposedly much stronger and much more addictive than the One Power. Rand also damaged the pattern severely by using a large amount of balefire to kill Graendal.

I hunch that there will be grave repercussions in the future from these two events alone.

 

Semirhage was captured already so her death was the natural course. We never seen Graendal die though. For all we know, she could have used a proxy and got away.

 

There are other things, such as Rand finally snapping and almost losing his sanity, or the White Tower and the Seanchan. Both sides got quite a beating. And both technically belongs to the Light.

 

I say the Dark Side ain't doing too bad.

Not only that but Seanchan is still devestated by Civil War and famine is scouring the land and millions are starving.

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I still think that Taim is Demandred and have chosen to ignore all the unimpeachable evidence to contradict that idea.

 

 

You know, RJ saying that Demandred has never pretended to be Mazrim Taim isn't lying if he hadn't pretended to be Mazrim Taim at the point when RJ said that!  So maybe he is Taim NOW, but wasn't THEN!  It's brilliant!  Or maybe Taim is DEMANDRED, not the otherway around!  Brilliant!

 

 

 

Wait... did RJ say "Demandred has never pretended to be Taim" or did he say "Demandred is not and has never been Taim"?

 

You could argue that if Demandred is Taim - that is, Taim has never been anyone else than Demandred - then he is not pretending to be Taim. Twisting words, I know, but RJ was very good at that.   

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TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003-April 2004

 

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you.

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DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

RJ: I was surprised...but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while. I like to watch you squirm.

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Whereupon the wolves will discover that with just the right amount of saffron humans are very tasty.

Whereupon the DO realizes all he needs to kill all humans is to produce vast amounts of saffron. The forges near SG will all be taken out and trollocs will be made farmers in order to grow more saffron.
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