Do you feel bad for Alanna?

[Crael123]

Do you? Ino what she did was horrible but she has been through a lot of crap. I kind of do actually. but then again that is like feeling bad for a rapist for the guilt he has over raping a girl.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It's her own fault, she doesnt regret doing it, just that Rand doesnt let her near him or help him.

[Faolin]

I dont feel bad for her when Rand treats her like he does coz what she did to him is tantamount to rape. I think she should release his bond. But I do feel sorry for her over the loss of her other warder, Owein.

[OptimusPrime]

I dont feel bad for her, yet I dont think what she did was fully her own doing. I think she was a victim of Ta'verenism. She was thinking about bonding Perrin after all, IIRC, yet ended up bonding Rand. First thing, I think Rand needed that bond before he would get it off the groupies. Also I think Alanna may have some part to play, something like... Shaidar can detect Warder bonds and may end up killing Alanna to have a sly dig at Rands sanity.

 

What I dont understand is... why do Rands wounds, which he only takes note of when he exerts himself, makes Alanna babble and cry when Min Elayne and Aviendha dont seem phased by it. Or is it not Rands wounds that make Alanna cry? I know she lost a Warder but I seem to remember Alanna asking how Rand could stand the wounds. I like the fact that the bond and wounds can do that, but I dont understand why only one of his four bonders are affected by it.

[Tom Sawyer]

I think she's always crying over the loss of Owein, not because of anything to do with Rand's wounds.  It is getting old, though.

 

What I don't get is why he doesn't order her to remove the bond.  If she says no for some weird and obscure Aes Sedai reason, still her so the bond vanishes and then heal her up.

 

I have absolutely no sympathy for the woman.

[talligan]

I feel bad for her - really, it was a gift to Rand; the extra stamina, energy etc... have most likely kept him going as long as he has.

[Isgrimner]

Also I think Alanna may have some part to play, something like... Shaidar can detect Warder bonds and may end up killing Alanna to have a sly dig at Rands sanity.

 

 

Plot-wise the bond has already facilitated moving the story forward.  The bond was the main reason Perrin's rescue party found Rand when he had been taken by Elaida's group in LoC.  It could have more to do like you say, but it has already served at least one purpose.

[Morsker]

I don't feel bad about Alanna. I don't buy the analogy to rape though. Rand could be painlessly released from the bond, and only custom gets in the way, so really the entire White Tower is collectively guilty here. It's more like slavery than anything else, and parallels Egeanin's unwillingness to free Bayle Domon unless she can provide for his livelihood.

[Crael123]

I don't feel bad about Alanna. I don't buy the analogy to rape though. Rand could be painlessly released from the bond, and only custom gets in the way, so really the entire White Tower is collectively guilty here. It's more like slavery than anything else, and parallels Egeanin's unwillingness to free Bayle Domon unless she can provide for his livelihood.

 

idk i thot it was simular... like rand couldnt do a whole lot, she caught him off gaurd.but slavery is good as well. i wonder why if releasing somebody from the warder bond was possible, why didnt Elyas' aes sedai do it?

[nolirion]

That just the symbol of what is wrong with aes sedai , because they have a  hold on the one power (without getting mad ) they think they know/can do everything .

What did Alanna is not only wrong but also foolish , imagine if Rand didn't have a good opinion on aes sedai thing could have gotten ugly .

[Agitel]

That just the symbol of what is wrong with aes sedai , because they have a   hold on the one power (without getting mad ) they think they know/can do everything .

What did Alanna is not only wrong but also foolish , imagine if Rand didn't have a good opinion on aes sedai thing could have gotten ugly .

 

Rand's opinion of Aes Sedai throughout the series has been so peachy, after all.  :P

[Morsker]

idk i thot it was simular... like rand couldnt do a whole lot, she caught him off gaurd.but slavery is good as well. i wonder why if releasing somebody from the warder bond was possible, why didnt Elyas' aes sedai do it?

 

Releasing the bond takes a bit of time, and physical proximity, and Elyas had to flee for his life when the Red Ajah became suspicious of him.

 

And I realize AS make the rape analogy. I just don't think the analogy is very good. Bonding warders is quick, painless, causes no trauma, and can easily be undone. It's just assault, not rape. The custom of refusing to release them is the real atrocity. I'm glad I thought about it though, because it makes me lose sympathy for Aes Sedai enslaved by the Seanchen.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think the "rape" analogy refers to how the AS can "tweak" the bond to make their Warders obey them. Not to mention the fact that if the AS dies the warder basically dies. even given the extra strength and stamina, how can anyone say it is good? it is slavery little better than the seanchan use of damane

[chuckievi]

No, the rape analogy is in reference to bonding w/o permission.  The bond is an intimate connection between two people, and much like a sexual relationship it can be a willing or unwilling connection.

[Crael123]

No, the rape analogy is in reference to bonding w/o permission.  The bond is an intimate connection between two people, and much like a sexual relationship it can be a willing or unwilling connection.

 

yes that is what i ment sorry for the confusion

[jadelollipop]

apparently there is an aspect of compulsion to the Bond as well ....Other AS wonder why she did not use bond to control Rand...and one reason others keep asking Mat to be a warder...

Yet making an AS damane is wrong!!

[chuckievi]

apparently there is an aspect of compulsion to the Bond as well ....Other AS wonder why she did not use bond to control Rand...and one reason others keep asking Mat to be a warder...

Yet making an AS damane is wrong!!

 

I really don't understand how people don't see the difference.  In one case, the bond, it is normally entered willfully and is considered an honor to protect the Aes Sedai.  The "compulsion" aspect to the bond is just something they CAN do, it isn't necessary and sounds like it isn't even all that common.  Damane are humans who are treated as an animal or pet, they are debased to the point they no longer have self worth.  This is all done via conditioning and if necessary torture.  Bonding and collaring are VERY different.

[Morsker]

I don't think it's nearly as bad as damane. Warders are treated on par with the Seanchen's more honored slaves like Deathwatch Guards or sho'jin, while damane are treated like animals. The only part that really bothers me is the refusal to release warders, even in Rand's case. Alanna says she won't release Rand except to another woman, and then only if she's competent to "handle" him.

[DemandredFO]

Elayne, Aviendha and Min can handle him ;D

[Faolin]

I dont think Alanna has been very good at "handling" him anyway.

[FarShainMael]

apparently there is an aspect of compulsion to the Bond as well ....Other AS wonder why she did not use bond to control Rand...and one reason others keep asking Mat to be a warder...

Yet making an AS damane is wrong!!

 

I really don't understand how people don't see the difference.  In one case, the bond, it is normally entered willfully and is considered an honor to protect the Aes Sedai.

 

In fact, didn't Gareth Bryne ask Siuan to bond him as her Warder? Indeed, later, he said he would ask her to marry him.

 

 The "compulsion" aspect to the bond is just something they CAN do, it isn't necessary and sounds like it isn't even all that common.

 

Indeed, Alanna said that she tried to control Rand immediately after bonding him, and couldn't.

 

Damane are humans who are treated as an animal or pet, they are debased to the point they no longer have self worth.  This is all done via conditioning and if necessary torture.  Bonding and collaring are VERY different.

 

Now here I would disagree, though on a personal level. I would find being under someone's direct control (as are Gabrelle and Toveine with Logain) to be every bit as horrific, even if painless, as being controlled by conditioning and torture; it is the fact of being controlled, by whatever means, that horrifies me. I see it as a loss of my personal identity, and I would probably go insane if it ever happened to me.

 

[Shazzai]

 

 

Now here I would disagree, though on a personal level. I would find being under someone's direct control (as are Gabrelle and Toveine with Logain) to be every bit as horrific, even if painless, as being controlled by conditioning and torture; it is the fact of being controlled, by whatever means, that horrifies me. I see it as a loss of my personal identity, and I would probably go insane if it ever happened to me.

 

 

Also from a personal level.  It is possible to submit to someone else completely without losing your personal identity.  I could never do it either, but it IS possible to do and many people DO it voluntarily...

[Cirin]

I don't think it's really fair to say that Warder's are slaves, even if they enter into the compact unwillingly (as Rand did).  I think the Compulsion of the Warder bond only goes so far, it's not outright control (at least not with the traditional Aes Sedai bonding - the Asha'man bonding may be more along those lines, I don't recall if they ever really say).  I say that because there was at least one Aes Sedai of the Black Ajah that was avoiding her Warder, because her Warder wanted to kill her when he found out she was Black... or something along those lines.  Elyas is a Warder too, and he ran from his Aes Sedai.

 

Plus, the Warders retain their personalities and individual freedom to do things after the bonding, their not broken and reshaped into something else (except maybe by the Black Ajah, but they'll enslave you whether you're their Warder or not, so it's not really a fair comparison).  The Warders get some benefit out of it as well, being tougher than normal, etc.

 

So I really don't see it as slavery.  The rape analogy I can understand a little more, since you're forcing yourself on another and making an intimate connection with them, although I still don't think it would be quite as traumatic as actually being raped, unless possibly your Aes Sedai was then killed. 

[FarShainMael]

@Shazzai: So when did you meet someone who had had Compulsion used on them? Or wore an a'dam?

 

Submission to eg. a superior officer in the armed forces, to a monarch or tyrant, to a spouse, or to an employer, is simply not in that league. The person concerned still retains the capability of independent thought and action. A Compelled / collared person does not.

 

@Cirin: RE Asha'man bonding - The effect of Logain bonding Toveine is rather neatly summed up by this, from WH Prologue:

 

She fretted and fumed over how to disobey Logain, then did everything necessary to carry out his instructions without even thinking about it!

 

[Cirin]

Thanks for the quote FarShainMael!

 

Hmm... it doesn't necessarily say that they HAVE to obey, although that's the impression that I get from that quote and remember from the reading the books... although, actually, I wonder if the difference between Aes Sedai bonding Asha'man and Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai (since it's only really when the Asha'man bond an Aes Sedai that we see this) is that the Aes Sedai are bound by the Three Oaths as well.  If they swore fealty or any such thing like that to Logain along with the bonding, the Three Oaths mean they have to obey.