A clue to Taim

[Mr Ares]

I wish someone would do a write up of my favourite crackpot theory - that Taim is is Taim. Absurd, I know, with no supporting evidence, but it speaks to me in a way the lunatic fringe and their theories of Taim being Moridin, Demandred, and me never manage.

[clu7ch]

A write-up on why taim is taim.

 

His name, as you all may or (more likely) may not realize, is Mazrim Taim. Which is not to be confused with Elan Morin Tedronai, Ishamael, Moridin, Barid Bel Medar, or Demandred, however given the similarities between the two names it is quite easy to see the confusion. He refuses to believe that Rand cleansed Saidin, although a good number of forsaken were there, and if he were someone else, other than who he is, word would have reached him via the 'grapevine.' Please note, I'm not proposing a theory where Taim is actually a grapevine in disguise. Most notably, via Rand's senile voice in his head, he knows a great deal about the forsaken, because LTT was alive with them all once, and knew many of them personally. I think it would be odd for the good old LTT to miss out on an old soccer buddy hanging out constantly. The way he talks etc. etc. Therefor, Taim, or Mazrim Taim, is none other than: demandred shit. I mean....MAZRIM TAIM. or a robot. go figure. 

[Lacanos]

I wish someone would do a write up of my favourite crackpot theory - that Taim is is Taim. Absurd, I know, with no supporting evidence, but it speaks to me in a way the lunatic fringe and their theories of Taim being Moridin, Demandred, and me never manage.

My initial post could support that, it's up to you to make what you want from it.

Just confirms he's linked to the forsaken in a pretty major way - right at the top of the heirarchy

[clu7ch]

Really isn't much of a hierarchy with the forsaken, pretty much goes Nae'blis, then the rest. With SH floating around but I don't qualify him as a forsaken.

[Lacanos]

Really isn't much of a hierarchy with the forsaken, pretty much goes Nae'blis, then the rest. With SH floating around but I don't qualify him as a forsaken.

I was talking about the DF heirarchy, he's likely a step below the forsaken (or a half-step?)

[TheAngryDruid]

I've read the Moridin/Taim theory here, and Linda's over at the Thirteenth, and I'm in that camp.

 

Most of the clues that lead many to point to Demandred also point to Moridin (Second age knonwlege and manner of speaking, so-called Aiel). Plus, the hatred by Lews Therin makes even MORE sense now, yes?.

 

As I posted in the other thread, Taim being Ishy (and not merely a proxy or student) would seem to put the Shadow in a much more advantageous position. I mean, 13 Fades shouldn't be too hard for Moridin to round up. He's been sitting there educating and teaching DO theology. And if he misses on someone, or someone finds out, he just turns them forcefully. Now he's got AS to work with as well. And AS who could truthfully say they aren't Black (I think).

 

Plus the fact that no one is more dangerous than Moridin/Ishy. To have him that close to Rand, and with access to all those channelers so close to Rand (and Elayne's group), and to be able to spring a total surprise (to everyone but Logain) is a very strong position indeed, and backs up what BS (and RJ) have said about the strength of the Shadow's position.

 

Linda's point about Cadsuane teaching Rand and all the Asha'man something that would hurt them but that they need to learn takes on more relevance in this light. She's the one who captured Taim in the first place, and has those handy ornaments that could disrupt his TP weave.

 

Anyway, I'm on board.

 

[Durinax]

I figure taim was turned sometime after he got the head master position at the BT, it makes sense because to ensure that taim got the job ishy (or anyone else) could have left a seal laying around somewhere he would find it and put the idea in taims head that rand could offer a sanctuary from the people hunting him, then once Taim was in that position a forsaken came and turned him, which explains why he became so much more arrogent and a$$holish towards rand as time went on

[mossman87]

It's been said Moridin uses the TP exclusively now, right?  So is he just not teaching his students anymore if he's actually Taim?  Leaving it to subordinates?  Also I vaguely remember a point where Rand saw Moridin in his head get sick too from their link.  So if we assume he is still using Saidin to teach the Asha'man, does he just sick up every time he channels Saidin in-front of them?

 

Plus it just seems beneath Ishamael to have the whole M'hael attitude Taim carries himself with, but that's just personal opinion.

 

It'd be neat, but I just don't buy it.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Plus it just seems beneath Ishamael to have the whole M'hael attitude Taim carries himself with, but that's just personal opinion.

 

Exactly. While Taim craves temporal power for its own sake Ishy only cares about it because its a tool for him to use to obtain his ultimate goal (the dissolution of the wheel)..

[Phariah]

I've read the Moridin/Taim theory here, and Linda's over at the Thirteenth, and I'm in that camp.

 

Most of the clues that lead many to point to Demandred also point to Moridin (Second age knonwlege and manner of speaking, so-called Aiel). Plus, the hatred by Lews Therin makes even MORE sense now, yes?.

 

As I posted in the other thread, Taim being Ishy (and not merely a proxy or student) would seem to put the Shadow in a much more advantageous position. I mean, 13 Fades shouldn't be too hard for Moridin to round up. He's been sitting there educating and teaching DO theology. And if he misses on someone, or someone finds out, he just turns them forcefully. Now he's got AS to work with as well. And AS who could truthfully say they aren't Black (I think).

 

Plus the fact that no one is more dangerous than Moridin/Ishy. To have him that close to Rand, and with access to all those channelers so close to Rand (and Elayne's group), and to be able to spring a total surprise (to everyone but Logain) is a very strong position indeed, and backs up what BS (and RJ) have said about the strength of the Shadow's position.

 

Linda's point about Cadsuane teaching Rand and all the Asha'man something that would hurt them but that they need to learn takes on more relevance in this light. She's the one who captured Taim in the first place, and has those handy ornaments that could disrupt his TP weave.

 

Anyway, I'm on board.

 

um..... since when are there TP disrupting ter'angreal?, and when has it been said that old hag has em? her's disrupts OP so far shown only woman's half.

 

[coreybickle]

I don't believe that Taim is Moridin. Doesn't make enough sense. Rand isn't so dense not to notce that first off, and second, like stated in a previous post, Moridin is getting sick in the same way Rand is. There is no evidence that Taim is getting sick too.

 

It seems more likely that Taim is Demandred even though we've been told otherwise.

Or have we?

[DottieGirl]

I've always been stunned that none of the FS have mentioned Taim, even in passing.  It seems obvious to me he's a DF, he can Travel, knows something of Compulsion or mind control (see his comment to Bashere after his introduction), and has tons of nasty ways to kill people.  Not to mention, at least at one point, he was nearly as strong in saidin as Rand and commands the loyalty of at least 100 trained DF Asha'man.  So one of the FS must have Taim under his/her thumb, or they are completely ignoring a dangerous upstart that could be just as strong a threat to them as Rand or any Lightside channeler.  Yes, the FS consider today's channelers to be "untrained children," but even Graendal refused Sammael's unasked request to teach the Aiel Someryn Compulsion, not because Graendal feared her, but because Someryn was "not negligible" in saidar strength.  The FS are humans and jealous of those in this Age that possess both strength and skill, which Taim certainly has.

[Rasko]

I don't believe that Taim is Moridin. Doesn't make enough sense. Rand isn't so dense not to notce that first off, and second, like stated in a previous post, Moridin is getting sick in the same way Rand is. There is no evidence that Taim is getting sick too.

 

It seems more likely that Taim is Demandred even though we've been told otherwise.

Or have we?

 

Yes we have...RJ said so himself.

 

Demandred and Taim are different people.

[Beer Rot]

I honestly believe - and always will - that at the time that was written, Taim was supposed to be Demandred... and whatever necessitated the decision to change Taim from Demandred to some 'to be named later' persona took place afterwards. We know it to be untrue NOW, but at the time I think that it was very true.

 

I'll go to my grave wondering why RJ felt the need to make the switch.

 

THE TURTLE MOVES!!!

 

 

quick, hide! i hear the mob coming!

 

Which mob is that? The one full of people who take a beloved author at their word and aren't a fan of people calling RJ a liar just because their theory was destroyed? That mob.

 

The ones* that don't believe RJ was human and therefore capable of deception, truth twisting, and little white lies?  Yes, that one.

 

Bring it! *hides behind the Impressive Bosom*

 

I don't think you're talking about the right mob. Was RJ capable of deception? Of course. Would he out right lie to his readers? I say no. I guess it's up to you judge his integrity. Try and be objective and not let the fact that your pet theory was destroyed cloud your mind.

 

Believing has nothing to do with caring. You're assuming I care whether or not Taim is/was Demandred.

 

I don't.  I just believe the evidence pointed that it was so, and at a later date, this decision was changed.  And until evidence other than 'he said/she said' is shown, I'll continue to believe this.

 

 

If you want to know what I really care about, its Bela.  What will be her pivotal role in TG, and when will the books reveal how she killed Asmodean?

[Ashaman Kovan]

I honestly believe - and always will - that at the time that was written, Taim was supposed to be Demandred... and whatever necessitated the decision to change Taim from Demandred to some 'to be named later' persona took place afterwards. We know it to be untrue NOW, but at the time I think that it was very true.

 

I'll go to my grave wondering why RJ felt the need to make the switch.

 

THE TURTLE MOVES!!!

 

 

quick, hide! i hear the mob coming!

 

Which mob is that? The one full of people who take a beloved author at their word and aren't a fan of people calling RJ a liar just because their theory was destroyed? That mob.

 

The ones* that don't believe RJ was human and therefore capable of deception, truth twisting, and little white lies?  Yes, that one.

 

Bring it! *hides behind the Impressive Bosom*

 

I don't think you're talking about the right mob. Was RJ capable of deception? Of course. Would he out right lie to his readers? I say no. I guess it's up to you judge his integrity. Try and be objective and not let the fact that your pet theory was destroyed cloud your mind.

 

Believing has nothing to do with caring. You're assuming I care whether or not Taim is/was Demandred.

 

I don't.  I just believe the evidence pointed that it was so, and at a later date, this decision was changed.  And until evidence other than 'he said/she said' is shown, I'll continue to believe this.

 

 

If you want to know what I really care about, its Bela.  What will be her pivotal role in TG, and when will the books reveal how she killed Asmodean?

 

You obviously do care or you would concede the point that you don't know what you're talking about. The evidence is RJ's word. It's that simple. He said Demandred was never Taim. Therefore, he wasn't. It's not rocket science. Also, why am I not surprised that you're turning to Bela jokes....

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

It's one thing to disagree with the author on a philosophical point (see my sig), but to disagree with the author on a plain statement of fact is kinda disrespectful and certainly futile. It's RJ's story, after all. He's the author, and you can't spell "authority" without that. It isn't outright impossible that Taim is Demandred--perhaps RJ changed his mind for some reason like you suggest, or perhaps he felt a need to directly lie to us--but I just don't see a logical explanation for RJ telling us flat-out that Taim is not Demandred if in fact the opposite were true. Maybe Mazrim Taim is just Mazrim Taim. It'd be more interesting that way, I think: the same way Fain is more interesting as a kind of "Separate Shadow" rather than as just another Dark One plot.

 

Also: The idea of Taim becoming Nae'Blis is pretty far-fetched. We're too late in the story to bother with the motions of doing all the setup work necessarily to make that kind of a shocker effective. Remember, TGS was originally supposed to be the first part of a single, final book; we're just plain out of time for Taim to be hiding some major secret identity. Maybe he has some relationship with the Forsaken that we don't definitely know about, but there's no good opportunity left to say that Taim himself actually is one of the Forsaken, and forget about him being the heir apparent to Nae'Blis. All the pieces are falling into place for the Last Day. All the characters are gravitating toward their destinies as has been described to us over the past twenty years. Jumbling it all up at the last moment with new Big Bads and glaring plot twists would be like RJ undermining his own hard work over all this time. He is someone who typically spent books between introducing us to a plot detail and actually making that detail relevant. How long did we have to wait to learn about Thom's letter?

 

I think it's much more likely that Taim is Taim, give or take an alliance with one or more of the Forsaken, and that any evil Taim may throw into the plot machinery will have been long set up for us to recognize and appreciate.

[Ashaman Kovan]

It isn't outright impossible that Taim is Demandred--

 

Yes, it is.

[Sharaman]

Rj set out to write a trilogy; he ended up writing 10+ and counting.

Changed his mind. So?

If he originally intended Taim=Demandred and changed his mind about that as well, big deal.

He did so seamlessly - there's no point in the plotlines where there's a hitch if Taim doesn't equal Demandred, which is something all the identical theorists miss.

 

 

There is a hint that he wasn't intending to do a Taim = Demandred anyway since he said he was surprised when he learnt readers thought Taim = Demandred.

 

Two other possible points.

He introduced both characters onstage in the same book - he may have been unconsciously writing in some similar traits for both.

Readers who encountered two new characters in the same book - both bad-ass channelers with a dark side to them - may have seen a pattern RJ wasn't intending them to see.

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

If he originally intended Taim=Demandred and changed his mind about that as well, big deal.

 

He said he didn't. Either you believe him or you call him a liar. That's the issue now.

[papertiger]

I'll call RJ a liar. I think there are a number of instances where he showed inconsistency in his depiction of things like Tel'aran'rhiod or the Ageless Face or even Padan Fain. Like Sharaman said, Jordan started writing this series as a trilogy, then intended for it to be six books maximum. That's how much the story got away from him. Coming back to the point, though, I'm fairly sure he originally wrote Taim to be Demandred then simply changed his mind and kept him as a counterpart to Alviarin because the story worked out that way. All writers are defensive about their work, and RJ was no exception. This story was his life, and if it happened to change and he didn't want to admit that for some reason, more power to him. It still makes for a brilliant series. 

[Ashaman Kovan]

I'll call RJ a liar. I think there are a number of instances

Well then I'll call you an idiot. I only have one good instance though.

[Bela_theDo]

I can say that Taim is not Demandred-because he didnt recognise Flinn during the Cleansing of Saidin.

 

So it is not a RJ said so thing actually...

[OptimusPrime]

I'll call RJ a liar. I think there are a number of instances

Well then I'll call you an idiot. I only have one good instance though.

 

Top man Kovan, that made me laugh my head off  :D

[Mr Ares]

I'll call RJ a liar. I think there are a number of instances

Well then I'll call you an idiot. I only have one good instance though.

A response worthy of me. Excellent work.

 

As for RJ changing his mind, he has changed his mind in the past and admitted it. What is so special about Taimandred that not only did he have to scrap this twist, but also lie about never having planned it? It's going a bit far with absolutely no evidence to support it.

[Lacanos]

I don't buy that he changed his mind on Taim=Demandred, if he isn't then he was never meant to be.

However, I don't buy him claiming that the similarities were accidental either, he was blatently out to confuse us.