Egwene's Reign (speculation & possible spoilers)

[Durinax]

A.  I love Egwene

B.  Technically, Rand already knows the Amyrlin's anger.  Remember how pissed off she was at him in tEotW when he was giving her crap for wanting to become Aes Sedai?

On point B, he has not felt the Amyrlins anger because she was not amyrlin.

 

And for a previous poster I hate Egwene because

1) she compares her 'captivity' in the tower to rands in the chest when it is not nearly the same, she is not contorted into unnatural positions for most of a day then taken out beaten, and splashed with a bucket of water for a wash plus she didnt see the one she loves get tortured (when Min got beaten and rand went ballistic)

2) she refers to rand in the same way as other AS that he must be guided and controlled, which means she hasnt learnt a thing! We have seen every attempt at that become disastrous for all involved

3) she still thinks that AS are the top of the world not the 'servants' that they are supposed to be, as in helping people getting out there and righting the wrong so to speak

4) she isnt a strong person, she is just stubborn. She changes her personallity to fit best with whom she has to learn from and temporarily borrows some of their traits (Aiel) but still believes she is better than them!

[wumpus]

even if a complete olde style AS reunification occures who would control it, Egwene would want complete control (DISASTROUS) and refuse to give any control to Rand (SUCCESS). Or do you think it would end up with the male AS being represented by logain and the female by egwene with rand ruling over all of them

 

I agree only Rand can take the high seat, he does have experience with it and all. Full reunification would require lots of plot time, but a core made up of the White and Black towers when rand reveals again how to increase circle size, the majority of female AS feel saidin for the first time, feel it complete saidar, etc would be a doable point before the final battle and a required one to pull off what the 100 companions couldn't do alone once they figure out how to keep the DO from tainting everything.

[balefireruinssteaks]

"knowing her anger" doesn't necessarily mean that Rand will be taken or changed BY her anger.

 

I think Rand making his treaties with the Seanchan is what will spark Egwene's anger and perhaps she herself will see that those treaties are necessary, which will pave the way for the fulfillment of the dream that she will work together with a Seanchan woman.

[Eht Slat Meit]

And for a previous poster I hate Egwene because

1) she compares her 'captivity' in the tower to rands in the chest when it is not nearly the same, she is not contorted into unnatural positions for most of a day then taken out beaten, and splashed with a bucket of water for a wash plus she didnt see the one she loves get tortured (when Min got beaten and rand went ballistic)

 

Both forms of captivity are meant to serve the same capacity - dehumanize the dragon/damane to the point where they know they are an animal and nothing more, meant to be leashed and guided. Pain serves both in achieving this end, and what the Seanchan does is arguably worse, because not only do they enslave someone, but they destroy that person's identity in the process.

 

2) she refers to rand in the same way as other AS that he mus[qut be guided and controlled, which means she hasnt learnt a thing! We have seen every attempt at that become disastrous for all involved

 

Guided and -advised- are key words here. Egwene had this conversation with the Whites, showing she knows full well the Dragon cannot be controlled, as it flies in the face of prophecy. Note that guiding is not the same as controlling, because a person has the choice of following or not following a guide, the same with advising.

 

3) she still thinks that AS are the top of the world not the 'servants' that they are supposed to be, as in helping people getting out there and righting the wrong so to speak

 

That's the essence of guiding and advising. Serving does NOT only mean that you obey commands like a good little dog.

 

4) she isnt a strong person, she is just stubborn. She changes her personallity to fit best with whom she has to learn from and temporarily borrows some of their traits (Aiel) but still believes she is better than them!

 

.. where on earth has Egwene ever stated she's better than the Aiel? This one baffles me.

[Durinax]

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Quote from: Durinax on Today at 09:45:31 AM

And for a previous poster I hate Egwene because

1) she compares her 'captivity' in the tower to rands in the chest when it is not nearly the same, she is not contorted into unnatural positions for most of a day then taken out beaten, and splashed with a bucket of water for a wash plus she didnt see the one she loves get tortured (when Min got beaten and rand went ballistic)

 

Both forms of captivity are meant to serve the same capacity - dehumanize the dragon/damane to the point where they know they are an animal and nothing more, meant to be leashed and guided. Pain serves both in achieving this end, and what the Seanchan does is arguably worse, because not only do they enslave someone, but they destroy that person's identity in the process.

she doesnt make the comparison about damane/rand's chest she makes it about being captive in the tower to rand being in the chest. Thats what pissed me off, she had everything extremely cushy compared to rand, and brought the discipline upon herself (although I would admit it was an effective tactic).

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4) she isnt a strong person, she is just stubborn. She changes her personallity to fit best with whom she has to learn from and temporarily borrows some of their traits (Aiel) but still believes she is better than them!

.. where on earth has Egwene ever stated she's better than the Aiel? This one baffles me.

thats the feeling that I got from Egwene when she was travelling with them and they believed that she was AS but did not treat her as such, I got the feeling she was deferring with them visually but was raging inside about the treatment to an AS and such

 

 

as for the being a servant part, they serve no one but their own purposes. Sure they do heal the sick when an AS can be found, but they do not get out and about trying to help humanity which creates alot of problems for them, and this policy of being shut in is probably going to continue with Egwene (eexcept for recruiting parties)

[randfandom]

1) she compares her 'captivity' in the tower to rands in the chest when it is not nearly the same, she is not contorted into unnatural positions for most of a day then taken out beaten, and splashed with a bucket of water for a wash plus she didnt see the one she loves get tortured (when Min got beaten and rand went ballistic)

 

I am not a big Egwene fan, but this is unfair.

 

She compared specifically the time she was kept in a tiny lightless cell that did not allow her to stand or lie straight, where she too was taken out and beaten once or twice a day, without being granted Healing. This is very similar to what Rand went through, so her comparison is valid. Rand's ordeal was harsher and longer (11 days in the box compared to 2 or 3 for Egwene), but if you read her talk with Siuan and thoughts later, she acknowledges the fact.

I thought that her musings on this were actually the beginning of her understanding of what he is going through. It is certainly the first time we have seen her show compassion towards him rather than impatience, envy, resentment or frustration.

2) she refers to rand in the same way as other AS that he must be guided and controlled, which means she hasnt learnt a thing! We have seen every attempt at that become disastrous for all involved

Well, she is working on getting Aes Sedai to follow her and not see her as an unruly novice. This means she has to pick her battles carefully. Before she can convince Aes Sedai they need to work with Rand rather than rule over him, she has to first convince them that she is fit to be an Aes Sedai and Amyrlin. Starting out by attacking such a widely held belief would not get her to her goal. She did tell them that they had to choose an Amyrlin that would "work" rather than "deal" with the Dragon Reborn, but her first priority was reuniting the Tower behind her, before tackling how to handle the Tower relationship with the Dragon Reborn. This was the right choice.

[mikael]

I think they should use Elaidas tower project to somehow symbolize their role of servants, let the poor people visiting for advice or healing or w/e live in the pent house kind of thing.

 

Ill withold judgement on Egwene until after her confrontation with Rand, Ive never really liked her pov but tGS was really good and entertaining from her view. However, if her role is to scream at Rand about one thing or another and make things worse instead showing some understanding for the fact that he´s the Lights only hope against the DO, and thus takes an insane amount of damage from the Dark and on top of that has to deal with half the Light trying to use him and the other half trying to tell him what to do. Then Ill think of her as another nuisance that lets her pride of her office get in the way of the fight against the DO.

 

On a side note, how can the AS hold themselves in such a high esteem when 3/5 only consider their own gain when making decisions and 1/5 were actual BA. In the beginning of the series it seemed like the fear/hate against AS were unfounded superstition but now it seem like the AS really need to accept that thats what theyve mostly been for a long while and do what they can to redeem it.

[garion]

She compared specifically the time she was kept in a tiny lightless cell that did not allow her to stand or lie straight, where she too was taken out and beaten once or twice a day, without being granted Healing. This is very similar to what Rand went through, so her comparison is valid. Rand's ordeal was harsher and longer (11 days in the box compared to 2 or 3 for Egwene), but if you read her talk with Siuan and thoughts later, she acknowledges the fact.

 

The main difference here is that Egwene could talk to sane individuals while Rand only had LTT.

[OsaroLJ]

How many people here didn't feel bad for the Aes Sedai when they got their tails kicked by the Seanchen? I know I didn't ::)

[azrael.1289]

I agree 100%.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that he already had that sign as a banner when going to wat, alongside the Dragon Banner. I believe he's had both as banners since Caemlyn or even before that.

 

Yes, he's had that banner a long time. But he did that because that's what he thought of the prophecy. What we're saying is we think the reason for the prophecy mentioning the ancient sign is that it means the male and female channelers need to work together - not just having the banner as a symbol, but having unified channelers in truth.

Yeah...I don't think you can take that prophecy literally that he'll just use that symbol but rather focus on what that symbol signifies.

[randfandom]

The main difference here is that Egwene could talk to sane individuals while Rand only had LTT.

 

And she said that herself to Siuan - paraphrased from memory, so apologies if I misquote: "This is what Rand went through, no worse - rumors said he was locked in a box smaller than my cell - and he had no one to talk to. I have you and T'A'R. He had nothing to make him believe his imprisonment meant something".

 

I think that was a fair assessment of the situation. And lest you forget, while the intensity of Rand's torture was far worse than Egwene's, his imprisonment lasted approximately two WoT weeks, whereas Egwene's lasted much longer.

 

Rand is my favorite character and I never liked Egwene, but there is no reason to denigrate her experience just because you think Rand had it worse.

 

For that matter, the worst imprisonment experience seen so far had been Galina's with the Shaido, but I doubt any of us will shed any tears over it.

[thewalrus777]

Egwene got the most important thing on her list done. She made the WT whole again. Now she can start dealing, with more current things that need to be addressed.

 

And her confinement was almost as bad as Rand's. Why? Because she wasn't just held in a tiny cell. She was beaten several times a day, with healing in between so she could get beat some more. It's just that when she was in the cell she didn't recieve healing. So she got it some fierce during her imprisonment.

 

Remember she has to keep things on the up in the Tower. If she doesn't plan out her actions rationally, she could end up like Siuan and Elaida did. She is treading likely at the moment. And she did present herself as one who would work with the DR. She knows more than anyone that Rand will not be controlled. I believe Moiraine's return will help Rand accept the WT's advice more readily.

 

Egwene is not stubborn nor does she think she's better than everyone else. She does what she needs to, for accomplishing her goals. The same as Moiraine or Rand for that matter. She knows what needs to happen for success at TG and will do anything to make sure that victory happens.

[Ataxia]

It was also her choice to be there (which included being beaten). There were many offers of rescue. Rand didnt choose to be captured and beaten.

 

 

[Treehugger]

It was also her choice to be there (which included being beaten). There were many offers of rescue. Rand didnt choose to be captured and beaten.

 

 

 

The DO wanted the Tower destroyed from within, Egwene was fighting against that.  Her being thrown into the cell was a consequence of that fight, most likely Mesaana was trying to limit her influence within the tower at this point. Escaping would to her have been an act of desertion

 

Anybody notice that the White Tower now has a ready made army to ride with them to TG.

 

As for that prophecy of Elaida currently the Black Tower is commanded by a guy who, at the very best, has serious issues with Rand being the Dragon Reborn instead of him or, at the very worst, is either a darkfriend or a forsaken. Maybe Elaida's prophecy partially refers to the sorting out of that little mess

[DemandredFO]

Personally, I'm looking forward to the Nyneave/Egwene meeting.  I don't think Egwene's bullying tactics will work, they might backfire, like, "I sent my husband to Tarwin's Gap while you've been playing with Silviana".

As to Rand's vs. Egwene captivity, it came to a battle in the end anyway and her screwing around gave the Seanchan their golden opportunity.  TG was coming, she should've taken rescue, maybe russled up Nyneave and Elayne and with the army taken Tar Valon and the Tower.  Sort out differences later.  Rand had NO choice in his captivity and he wasn't healed.

knowing Amyrlin's anger, the poster who said seanchan is correct, I think but more specifically, I think Egwene will know rand is right, something like, "I know he's right but I can't let him know that and that fact will piss her off even more.

Incidently, we can see Egwene hasn't changed when she gets pissed at Bryne and Gawyn rescuing her, logic and training should tell her that being unguarded when an enemy has just retreated, not smart.  They might leave surprises behind, like the surprise that nearly killed Suian.

[azrael.1289]

It was also her choice to be there (which included being beaten). There were many offers of rescue. Rand didnt choose to be captured and beaten.

 

 

 

The DO wanted the Tower destroyed from within, Egwene was fighting against that.  Her being thrown into the cell was a consequence of that fight, most likely Mesaana was trying to limit her influence within the tower at this point. Escaping would to her have been an act of desertion

 

That's not the point. The point is she had a choice, if she wanted out she could get out. Rand didn't. That makes a world of difference when you are captured and tortured, don't you think?

[dumont76]

knowing Amyrlin's anger, the poster who said seanchan is correct, I think but more specifically, I think Egwene will know rand is right, something like, "I know he's right but I can't let him know that and that fact will piss her off even more.

Incidently, we can see Egwene hasn't changed when she gets pissed at Bryne and Gawyn rescuing her, logic and training should tell her that being unguarded when an enemy has just retreated, not smart.

 

The part here about "I know he's right..." sounds like it could be a quote out of almost any of the books.  The attitude taken towards men is so derisive it borders on sickness sometimes.  Egwene's inability to mature into a woman who can understand and dislike these "male" issues may just be turned around when when she sees what Rand/Nynaeve/&co. have accomplished without the precious guidance of the Amyrlin & co.  In fact, as stated in the quote above, she is going to have to in order to survive TG and IMO the fem & male are going to have a relationship of quality, revitalizing the progress made in the Age of Legends.  Besides, if they wan to truly seal the DO, they'll need saidar and saidin together!

[thewalrus777]

It was also her choice to be there (which included being beaten). There were many offers of rescue. Rand didnt choose to be captured and beaten.

 

 

 

The DO wanted the Tower destroyed from within, Egwene was fighting against that.  Her being thrown into the cell was a consequence of that fight, most likely Mesaana was trying to limit her influence within the tower at this point. Escaping would to her have been an act of desertion

 

That's not the point. The point is she had a choice, if she wanted out she could get out. Rand didn't. That makes a world of difference when you are captured and tortured, don't you think?

 

It's different, just not in the way you think. Rand didn't have the option of leaving and Egwene did. Egwene willing chose to be in the Tower to prove her point to the Sisters she needed to turn her way. Yes Rand's imprisonment was absolutely terrible, and I take nothing from that. Egwene's imprisonment was in a way self imposed for a very noble purpose. She was truly looking at a VERY BIG picture in regards to healing the Tower. Obviously Elaida was doing a terrible job of it. And the Sitters that where coming to a decision after Elaida's capture almost made another mistake by nominating one of themselves for the Seat. She took the punishments to prove a very strong point. Look at what's happened to the Tower and how bad things truly are. Her taking the punishments, just told everyone in the Tower that she would not be broken, and that her purpose is true. She still had a very horrible time during her imprisonment, even though it was self imposed. She was beaten several times a day with healing in between to just get beaten again. And that had been for weeks at this point. Then she was thrown into a cell a little bigger than Rand's box. Where she was beaten several times a day without healing. Like I said before that I'm not taking anything away from his captivity, just not writing off Egwene's captivity as uncomparable. Because their captivities were 2 different situations, but still similar in pain and suffering.

[Treehugger]

I agree with you Thewalrus777.

 

It took a lot of courage for Egwene to remain in that situation. Egwene herself acknowledges taht what she has gone through is not bad as Rand's situation but it has given her empathy and compssaion for one of Rand major stressors that will surely affect how the two character interact in future.

[azrael.1289]

It's different, just not in the way you think. Rand didn't have the option of leaving and Egwene did. Egwene willing chose to be in the Tower to prove her point to the Sisters she needed to turn her way. Yes Rand's imprisonment was absolutely terrible, and I take nothing from that. Egwene's imprisonment was in a way self imposed for a very noble purpose. She was truly looking at a VERY BIG picture in regards to healing the Tower. Obviously Elaida was doing a terrible job of it. And the Sitters that where coming to a decision after Elaida's capture almost made another mistake by nominating one of themselves for the Seat. She took the punishments to prove a very strong point. Look at what's happened to the Tower and how bad things truly are. Her taking the punishments, just told everyone in the Tower that she would not be broken, and that her purpose is true. She still had a very horrible time during her imprisonment, even though it was self imposed. She was beaten several times a day with healing in between to just get beaten again. And that had been for weeks at this point. Then she was thrown into a cell a little bigger than Rand's box. Where she was beaten several times a day without healing. Like I said before that I'm not taking anything away from his captivity, just not writing off Egwene's captivity as uncomparable. Because their captivities were 2 different situations, but still similar in pain and suffering.

I know the physical aspects of both their imprisonments are somewhat comparable. But, what I am talking about is the effect the imprisonments had on Rand and Egwene's psyche.Knowing that you can end your imprisonment goes a long long way in keeping a person sane in such situations. So, the psyhcological damage Egwene suffered is nowhere comparable to what Rand did, atleast IMO.

 

[thewalrus777]

It's different, just not in the way you think. Rand didn't have the option of leaving and Egwene did. Egwene willing chose to be in the Tower to prove her point to the Sisters she needed to turn her way. Yes Rand's imprisonment was absolutely terrible, and I take nothing from that. Egwene's imprisonment was in a way self imposed for a very noble purpose. She was truly looking at a VERY BIG picture in regards to healing the Tower. Obviously Elaida was doing a terrible job of it. And the Sitters that where coming to a decision after Elaida's capture almost made another mistake by nominating one of themselves for the Seat. She took the punishments to prove a very strong point. Look at what's happened to the Tower and how bad things truly are. Her taking the punishments, just told everyone in the Tower that she would not be broken, and that her purpose is true. She still had a very horrible time during her imprisonment, even though it was self imposed. She was beaten several times a day with healing in between to just get beaten again. And that had been for weeks at this point. Then she was thrown into a cell a little bigger than Rand's box. Where she was beaten several times a day without healing. Like I said before that I'm not taking anything away from his captivity, just not writing off Egwene's captivity as uncomparable. Because their captivities were 2 different situations, but still similar in pain and suffering.

I know the physical aspects of both their imprisonments are somewhat comparable. But, what I am talking about is the effect the imprisonments had on Rand and Egwene's psyche.Knowing that you can end your imprisonment goes a long long way in keeping a person sane in such situations. So, the psyhcological damage Egwene suffered is nowhere comparable to what Rand did, atleast IMO.

 

 

I do agree on this point with you about the mental effects the imprisonment had on Rand, being a lot more severe than what Egwene had happen to her mentally.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Don't hate me but if we are comparing the psychological consequences of both imprisonments then I would suggest that Egwene is STRONGER than Rand in that she was able to come out unscathed and embrace what the Aiel taught her because she understood a bigger purpose and picture.

 

Rand's imprisonment left him detached and emotionless; instead of finding a bigger purpose he embraced rage and anger and made himself unable to feel anything.

 

Psychologically, Egwene handled her capture in a much better way and I think she accomplished more by applying what she learned and knew rather than giving in to anger or allowing herself to be rescued.

[DemandredFO]

Yes, but what people are saying is that Egwene KNEW her capture would end with the fall of the tower.  As far as Rand KNEW, he was being taken to the tower and no one knew he was missing.  Egwene embraced pain because she could see light at the end of the tunnel; as far as rand knew, there was just more tunnel.

Egwene is NOT more noble, she knew TG was coming but instead of acting and using her GREAT CAPTAIN, she dithered.  The only reason she suceeded was because of the Seanchan; she refused to do what was necessary.

I won't even dignify the Egwene is stronger than Rand comment with one of my own; I don't want to provoke a flame war.

[Durinax]

I will start the flame war then :P

Points about each captures

Rand

1) was folded in half and stuffed inside of a chest

2) was taken out and beaten (and presumably told terrible things that would happen to him in the tower)

3) no one knew he was missing, and he knew it, so he had no hope of escape

4) a voice in his head was raging against everyone saying not to trust anyone, etc. and it slowly became more convincing

5) Rand had to see Min get beaten

6) No training whatsoever in taking abuse, he just has training with putting up with manipulation

7) completely shielded no chance at touching Saidin which I believe he was addicted too and thus craving

 

Egwene

1) put into a small cell (she could still almost lie down, just not move, and she had to bend her neck in order to fit)

2) was beaten and then healed for more beatings (Rand was beaten ontop of bruises which would have hurt more)

3) Egwene told people not to rescue her and had training with taking abuse (novice times and apprentice times)

4) No voice in her head, and could converse with others who shared her ideas and cause

5) could touch saidar but only limited amounts which helped do damage control within herself

[azrael.1289]

Don't hate me but if we are comparing the psychological consequences of both imprisonments then I would suggest that Egwene is STRONGER than Rand in that she was able to come out unscathed and embrace what the Aiel taught her because she understood a bigger purpose and picture.

 

Rand's imprisonment left him detached and emotionless; instead of finding a bigger purpose he embraced rage and anger and made himself unable to feel anything.

 

Psychologically, Egwene handled her capture in a much better way and I think she accomplished more by applying what she learned and knew rather than giving in to anger or allowing herself to be rescued.

You're still not getting it. She had the knowledge that she COULD get out if things got too bad. Rand had absolutely no hope, had a painful stab wound already, was destined to die anyways, had a madman in his head, saw AS torture a person he cared for, was tortured for a longer period etc etc etc.

 

Tell me how Egwene is stronger again? She came out unscathed because what she went through is nothing compared to what Rand went through.