Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Faolin]

Thanks papertiger! Apparently I did miss something... :-)

[FarShainMael]

Regarding the seals, and the cuendillar focus points: what force is causing the cuendillar to weaken? I'm aware that it can be destroyed by the TP, but what would cause an FP to break when inside Nynaeve's washleather purse, for example?

 

[yoniy0]

Essanik Cycle [seanchan version of Prophecies of the Dragon]

If I'm allowed just a small correction, the Essanik Cycle isn't parallel to Randland's Karatheon Cycle, it's a different set of prophecies given by Seanchan damane (hence it didn't exist before Luthair arrived at the Seanchan continent). The part about Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne appears in the Seanchan Karatheon Cycle, and that's the part that was apparently tempered with.

Also, BS confirmed that there has been tampering with one if not both of those (he was unclear if that's regarding the Seanchan version or the Randland one), but he did not name the culprit.

 

Regarding the seals, and the cuendillar focus points: what force is causing the cuendillar to weaken? I'm aware that it can be destroyed by the TP, but what would cause an FP to break when inside Nynaeve's washleather purse, for example?

Might it be the taint itself? We know from LTT's memories that the Seals weren't perfect because of it. Anyways, I thought it worthwhile to mention BS said there's another way to break cuendillar except for using TP, and that we'll see it in ToM.

Regarding Nyneave's purse, I think whatever it was only worked to weaken the Seal. It broke due to physical damage it sustained during their travel to Salidar (the girls didn't think to try to protect it, since it WAS cuendillar).

[FarShainMael]

That would make sense, thanks.

 

[algspkr]

Essanik Cycle [seanchan version of Prophecies of the Dragon]

If I'm allowed just a small correction, the Essanik Cycle isn't parallel to Randland's Karatheon Cycle, it's a different set of prophecies given by Seanchan damane (hence it didn't exist before Luthair arrived at the Seanchan continent). The part about Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne appears in the Seanchan Karatheon Cycle, and that's the part that was apparently tempered with.

Also, BS confirmed that there has been tampering with one if not both of those (he was unclear if that's regarding the Seanchan version or the Randland one), but he did not name the culprit.

 

It says that the generally accepted version of the Seanchan prophecies came with Luthar Pendrag.  There is a quote somewhere that says that this is where the kneeling to the Crystal Throne line came from.

[Durinax]

I thought it was commonly accepted that hte seanchan version was the corrupted one, especially since it would be much easier to corrupt something that is being moved that somethign that is sitting still, and its more likely that Pendraeg had very few copies making the job that much easier

[Random Man]

I thought it was commonly accepted that hte seanchan version was the corrupted one, especially since it would be much easier to corrupt something that is being moved that somethign that is sitting still, and its more likely that Pendraeg had very few copies making the job that much easier

Either both the original Seanchan version AND the Kraethorn Cycle (neither of which mentioned Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne) are corrupted, or the version brought with Luthair (which does mention Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne) is corrupted. One or the other of these premises must be true -- unless all three are corrupted, in which case the gloves are off. If one or the other is pure, reason would say that Luthair's version is the corrupted one, especially considering that he was sent at a time when Ishy had the ear of Artur Hawkwing and would be in a prime position to corrupt the prophecies sent with Luthair to the Seanchan.

[papertiger]

@FarShainMael

 

So I found another article at the 13th Depository that said the Domination Band was made of cuendillar. Rand broke it with the TP so I guess you were right:

 

Male a’dam

 

Also called a Domination Band, this ter’angreal consists of two jointed bracelets of dull black metal and a wide collar. All three are made of cuendillar. A female channeller touching either bracelets or collar feels old and sharp pain, sorrow and suffering (The Shadow Rising, Need, and Into the Palace).

 

The male a’dam was made during the Breaking (The Gathering Storm, The Last That Could Be Done). Presumably, women tried to make a device that would enable them to control male channellers despite the taint. Making them from cuendillar ensured their unbreakability.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/search/label/Ter'angreal%20and%20Allied%20Items

[Dreamwalker]

I thought it was commonly accepted that hte seanchan version was the corrupted one, especially since it would be much easier to corrupt something that is being moved that somethign that is sitting still, and its more likely that Pendraeg had very few copies making the job that much easier

Either both the original Seanchan version AND the Kraethorn Cycle (neither of which mentioned Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne) are corrupted, or the version brought with Luthair (which does mention Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne) is corrupted. One or the other of these premises must be true -- unless all three are corrupted, in which case the gloves are off. If one or the other is pure, reason would say that Luthair's version is the corrupted one, especially considering that he was sent at a time when Ishy had the ear of Artur Hawkwing and would be in a prime position to corrupt the prophecies sent with Luthair to the Seanchan.

 

Likely they are all three slightly corrupted just because of the passage of time, retelling and retranslations. However, the big corruption I think was with Luthair's copy IMO. And I think it was done by Ishamael. Ishamael had been an advisor to Hawkwing and had been part of getting him to send off his sons like this - it would be relatively easy for him to corrupt Luthair's copy. Either that, or Luthair's copy was corrupted later by Emperors/Empresses changing it for propaganda purposes (kneeling to the Crystal Throne and all). That may be the simplest explanation, actually.

 

EDIT: Fixing grammar fail.

[algspkr]

I thought it was commonly accepted that hte seanchan version was the corrupted one, especially since it would be much easier to corrupt something that is being moved that somethign that is sitting still, and its more likely that Pendraeg had very few copies making the job that much easier

Either both the original Seanchan version AND the Kraethorn Cycle (neither of which mentioned Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne) are corrupted, or the version brought with Luthair (which does mention Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne) is corrupted. One or the other of these premises must be true -- unless all three are corrupted, in which case the gloves are off. If one or the other is pure, reason would say that Luthair's version is the corrupted one, especially considering that he was sent at a time when Ishy had the ear of Artur Hawkwing and would be in a prime position to corrupt the prophecies sent with Luthair to the Seanchan.

 

Likely they are all three slightly corrupted just because of the passage of time, retelling and retranslations. However, the big corruption I think was with Luthair's copy IMO. And I think it was done by Ishamael. Ishamael had been an advisor to Hawkwing and had been part of getting him to send off his sons like this - it would be relatively easy for him to corrupt Luthair's copy. Either that, or Luthair's copy was corrupted later by Emperors/Empresses changing it for propaganda purposes (kneeling to the Crystal Throne and all). That may be the simplest explanation, actually.

 

EDIT: Fixing grammar fail.

 

I have always believed in the propaganda theory myself as I do not see Ishamael predicting something as specific as the Seanchan adopting a crystal throne.

[lordofsoup]

the fact that they would purposely change prophecies, that would change the world astounds me.  If they did that there is no way they or any of their ancestors have any credibility in my eyes.  Pretty much so they feel good about themselves. 

[FarShainMael]

@papertiger - thanks for that ref.

 

[farthammer]

Was the Dragon reborn because the seals were weakening, or were the seals weakening because the dragon was reborn?

[Durinax]

Was the Dragon reborn because the seals were weakening, or were the seals weakening because the dragon was reborn?

I would have to say because the seals where weakening the dragon was reborn, since the dragon is only spun out again when the pattern needs him

[farthammer]

That's probably right.  It just seemed that actually getting the dragon to be reborn was this big elaborate hassle.  As in Gitara driving a lot of it all, getting Tigraine to be a maiden to marry a clan chief, and just pop out a dragon in the exact spot he died.  So sometimes I look at the cycle and everything that goes with that as if it was engineered that way.  If seanchan prophecy was ultimately corrupted so could the karaethon cycle.

[mb]

Was the Dragon reborn because the seals were weakening, or were the seals weakening because the dragon was reborn?

I would have to say because the seals where weakening the dragon was reborn, since the dragon is only spun out again when the pattern needs him

To me it seems that neither was the cause of the other.

Prophecy to be fulfilled I take is the reason for the Dragon's rebirth.

The seals weakening I take somehow relates to the Dark One's counter stroke, though I doubt the Taint specifically since the seals seem to be the only cuendillar that is/was weakening.

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

If seems that people are kind of forgetting that the cuendillar things that are breaking are actually the focus points for the real seals themselves. Which we know almost nothing about except that they're some kind of unknown Weave of the OP.

[farthammer]

There isn't much to say about something we know hardly anything about.  As far as I can tell they're there as a measure in the physical world how close the DO is to breaking free, and that's all for now.

[Sharaman]

The following is a mixture of speculation and fact - the facts are marked #.

#The Dragon is an instrument of the Pattern - he is born when the Pattern is in danger.

Whether that's because the seals had started going, or whether GLoD accelerated his escape attempt when the Dragon was born we don't know.

 

#GLoD's prison is in a different universe - outside the Pattern.

#The Bore is not a physical thing - it is present everywhere though most easily perceived at SG where the walls between the Pattern and the Prison are thinnest.

 

One could describe the Bore as a sort of wormhole between universes.

 

#The physical seals are scattered all over the place.

 

Let's say, they are each implanted with some sort of OP weave (Saidin) that maintains a barrier making the Bore impassible for GLoD.

 

#Over three millennia, the weaves have worn down in effective strength, presumably with help from GLoD.

As each seal's weave is nullified, it becomes fragile and breakable and essentially useless.

 

#The chosen have managed to break out.

Presumably because enough of the seals have lost effectiveness.

 

#GLoD can already Touch the Pattern more effectively.

Once the last seal is gone, GLoD will be able to enlarge the Bore at will.

 

#However, the Bore existed for 110 years before it was sealed.

 

So we don't really know how long it would take for GLoD to completely smash through.

One suspects that it would take a longish time because otherwise, the Shadow could just wait it out and let GLoD beaver away at breaking seals rather than provoke a violent conflict. The Shadow must be afraid that he will be resealed before he can bust out.

It you wish to debate this, take it to a new thread I guess?

 

[Shadow Rider]

Where is The Bore?

 

LoC Prologue: The First Message.

 

Demandred POV

Demandred felt awe. Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where The Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation. Here The Great Lords presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed.

 

Where is The Great Lords prison and the Bore Drilled through in the AoL?

 

 

 

[lordofsoup]

The bore is everywhere.  However it can be most easily felt at Shayol Ghul, where the pattern thins.  I believe that was where the bore was originally drilled from.

[Shadow Rider]

The bore is everywhere.  However it can be most easily felt at Shayol Ghul, where the pattern thins.  I believe that was where the bore was originally drilled from.

 

 

So where does Rand face The Great Lord? Does Rand have to die and face The Great Lord in his own Realm?

[Azrael Maravaile]

Where the bore was drilled... from the wheel of time wiki:

In the Age of Legends, Aes Sedai researchers at the Collam Daan discovered a region of the Pattern with what appeared to be an undivided source of the One Power separate from the True Source. Initial research suggested that this energy could be used by either gender without many of the known limitations of the One Power.

An attempt was made to access this new energy source by boring a hole in the Pattern. The resulting explosion destroyed the Sharom of Collam Daan. What the researchers had found was actually the prison of the Dark One. The resulting hole is known as the Bore, and although it has not allowed the Dark One to escape, it does allow him to influence the world.

 

shayol ghul....from the Wot Wiki...

Shayol Ghul (pronounced: SHAY-ol GHOOL) is a great black mountain, once an idyllic tropical island paradise and vacation spot, now the focal point of the Dark One's power.

[Shadow Rider]

So no one knows where The Great Lords prison is....

[Durinax]

So no one knows where The Great Lords prison is....

the great lords prison is the pattern, it locks him out of the physical world. shayol ghul is where a person could feel his influence more because of a thinness of the pattern