Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[EmperorAllspice]

And that's why I think a Ta'veren character dying would help in this case. to establish that Ta'veren can be killed permanently, and enforce some rules. Right now, all of the life or death situations I see are kinda tensionless cuz I'm thinking, "How will REALITY bend to save him this time?" not "how will HE save himself this time?"

 

Look at FOH as an example. Rand didn't accomplish anything in that himself. Rahvin would've won if Nynaeve hadn't COINCIDENTALLY been there. It's not an accomplishment of the character, and it felt like Rahvin was screwed over. He didn't lose because he was bested. He lost because reality contrived to kill him.

[Whizbang]

This actually is a great question to ask, while reading Lords of Chaos. The plan that Ishy and the DO are tying to enact is to throw as much wild chance into the pattern as possible. Send out conflicting orders. Cause the Light side to question their own actions. Randomly do a bunch of both low and high level destruction and chaos. That is how they will counter the Pattern warping events. The more chaos they introduce, the more likely it will be that when they confront a Ta'veren, all the pieces won't be in place to save the hero from death.

[EmperorAllspice]

"Let the lord of Chaos reign"?

[Amandera]

And that's why I think a Ta'veren character dying would help in this case. to establish that Ta'veren can be killed permanently, and enforce some rules. Right now, all of the life or death situations I see are kinda tensionless cuz I'm thinking, "How will REALITY bend to save him this time?" not "how will HE save himself this time?"

 

Look at FOH as an example. Rand didn't accomplish anything in that himself. Rahvin would've won if Nynaeve hadn't COINCIDENTALLY been there. It's not an accomplishment of the character, and it felt like Rahvin was screwed over. He didn't lose because he was bested. He lost because reality contrived to kill him.

If we are going to take tFoH as an example, Mat killed Couladin by his skill with ashandarei alone and he desperately wanted to avoid that fight. It's not always ta'veren.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Cem Önal

[EmperorAllspice]

Don't get me started on Couladin... (grumbles) best Aiel in the whole story and he gets killed off off-screen. What tripe

[Amandera]

And by the way, you want to see a ta'veren die? Mat did die at the end of tFoH. Balefire burns a thread from the Pattern so ta'veren has nothing to do with his resurrection.

 

Don't get me started on Couladin... (grumbles) best Aiel in the whole story and he gets killed off off-screen. What tripe

Well, you wanted an example. One of the greatest warriors of the greatest warrior people in the world, and Mat killed him with his skill alone. It should be enough to prove that they don't always get lucky.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Cem Önal

[EmperorAllspice]

But wasn't one of his prophecies that he would die and come back? so that death was forseen by the pattern

[Amandera]

That's how fate works, Rand's whole life was foreseen and Foretold 3000 years ago. I don't see how that has anything to do with ta'veren.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Cem Önal

[Barid Bel Medar]

Alright, this isn't the place to debate the pros and cons of ta'veren. Create a thread (ha) about it if you want, but it seems it has become more than a simple question and a simple answer.

[Maleshub]

In Winter's Heart, Cyndane kills an "important" Darkfriend before answering Moridin's summons to go to the cleansing site. Has the identity of this DF been established? Or is this simply a minor detail in the story?

[mb]

He doesn't want the Pattern destroyed until he breaks free of it. It's like destroying a house when you are still in it.

 

That's my interpretation, at least.

I have doubts about the Pattern being the Dark One's prison.

During the War of Power, there was a lot of balefire from both sides. If the Pattern was the Dark One's prison, that much balefire would probably have removed enough (or possibly more than enough) threads for him to become free.

The Pattern is not his prison, but the Pattern does hold his prison. To use the house analogy--the Dark One is locked in the basement, and every is knocking down supports on the first floor. Unplanned destruction of the Pattern will cause it to collapse without giving the Dark One the opportunity to free himself first.

The Guide tells that both the Dark One and his prison are outside the Pattern.

From the paragraph (emphasis mine)::

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I am not sure if it has been established. There might be hints to who it was but no Cyndane killed XXXXX.

 

I am also not sure if the identity is important. It may be a hint of what Cyndane is up to (which we learn is rallying DF's with Moghedien) rather than it being about the actual DF.

[CauthonsLuck]

In a Crown of Swords, Sareitha (An Aes Sedai) says, "I also recommend a firm does of the slipper at regular intervals..." It's probably obvious, but what does this mean?

[Roland Delovinde]

The meaning of that statement is Sareitha recomending she be "spanked" with , literaly, a slipper. As it is actually done and explained later.

[TNine]

He doesn't want the Pattern destroyed until he breaks free of it. It's like destroying a house when you are still in it.

 

That's my interpretation, at least.

I have doubts about the Pattern being the Dark One's prison.

During the War of Power, there was a lot of balefire from both sides. If the Pattern was the Dark One's prison, that much balefire would probably have removed enough (or possibly more than enough) threads for him to become free.

The Pattern is not his prison, but the Pattern does hold his prison. To use the house analogy--the Dark One is locked in the basement, and every is knocking down supports on the first floor. Unplanned destruction of the Pattern will cause it to collapse without giving the Dark One the opportunity to free himself first.

The Guide tells that both the Dark One and his prison are outside the Pattern.

From the paragraph (emphasis mine)::

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation.

Then why is the Dark One bound by time, or bound in Shayol Ghoul? I could have sworn that he was bound in the Wheel of Time.

[Finnssss22]

Then why is the Dark One bound by time, or bound in Shayol Ghoul? I could have sworn that he was bound in the Wheel of Time.

 

He's not bound in Shayol Ghoul, that's a character drawn misconception.

That is just where the pattern is at its thinnest and the easiest place for the DO to "touch" the world.

 

Question:

 

 

What exactly is the Bore?

Robert Jordan:

 

Well, it is at... No, I shouldn't say that. It is a thinness in the Pattern that you can feel the most at Shayol Ghul.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Finnssss

[TNine]

Then why is the Dark One bound by time, or bound in Shayol Ghoul? I could have sworn that he was bound in the Wheel of Time.

 

He's not bound in Shayol Ghoul, that's a character drawn misconception.

That is just where the pattern is at its thinnest and the easiest place for the DO to "touch" the world.

 

Question:

 

 

What exactly is the Bore?

Robert Jordan:

 

Well, it is at... No, I shouldn't say that. It is a thinness in the Pattern that you can feel the most at Shayol Ghul.

Regardless, why is he bound by time if he is outside the Wheel?

[Finnssss22]

Then why is the Dark One bound by time, or bound in Shayol Ghoul? I could have sworn that he was bound in the Wheel of Time.

 

He's not bound in Shayol Ghoul, that's a character drawn misconception.

That is just where the pattern is at its thinnest and the easiest place for the DO to "touch" the world.

 

Question:

 

 

What exactly is the Bore?

Robert Jordan:

 

Well, it is at... No, I shouldn't say that. It is a thinness in the Pattern that you can feel the most at Shayol Ghul.

Regardless, why is he bound by time if he is outside the Wheel?

 

Not sure what you mean?

Isn't the phrase "Bound for all time" not "Bound by time"?

[Black Waltz]

Then why is the Dark One bound by time, or bound in Shayol Ghoul? I could have sworn that he was bound in the Wheel of Time.

 

He's not bound in Shayol Ghoul, that's a character drawn misconception.

That is just where the pattern is at its thinnest and the easiest place for the DO to "touch" the world.

 

Question:

 

 

What exactly is the Bore?

Robert Jordan:

 

Well, it is at... No, I shouldn't say that. It is a thinness in the Pattern that you can feel the most at Shayol Ghul.

Regardless, why is he bound by time if he is outside the Wheel?

 

Not sure what you mean?

Isn't the phrase "Bound for all time" not "Bound by time"?

 

It's quite a clear misconception in the catechism, used to reassure themselves, especially as the Forsaken are listed as being sealed away with the Dark One since the moment of creation rather than at the end of the AoL:

 

TEotW, Ch.1

Rand took a deep breath. As much as to remind himself as for any other reason, he said by rote, "The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, beyond the Great Blight, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time. The hand of the Creator shelters the world, and the Light shines on us all."

 

As stated before, the reason that Shayol Ghul is what it is, is the thinness, IIRC before the drilling of the Bore, they only discovered the TP through reading the pattern whilst looking for an "One Source." However, the Forsaken were bound at Shayol Ghul by LTT and the Hundred Companions at the end of the War of the Shadow, yet it is clear that the catechism mostly refers to the DO, and it is clear that he was bound at the moment of Creation (implying that Creation at the least holds the prison), and until the end of time, requiring time to be stopped, and thus the pattern and the wheel (mechanism of time) to be broken, so he is bound by them rather than in them, in the sense that they are the mechanisms that make his prison visible to the WoT Universe.

[Hagazussa]

How can I feel like the characters are in danger when reality is shifting IN-UNIVERSE to protect them? How can the villains fight that? Why don't they quit? If reality will contrive a person to sneak up on them just as they're about to make the final blow then why do they bother?

 

Well first off all there are quite a bit of leeway to the destinies in Wheel of Time, meaning in allot of scenes it can go either way. Also yes Rand will not die before he have fulfilled his destiny, if the WoT world had guns he could put one to his head and pull the trigger and the thing would malfunction and not fire, every 47 times he tries it. He can jump off a cliff but by some miracle end up landing so he only breaks a leg, the pattern will preserve him until he have performed his task, this do not mean he is safe from bad things happening to him. He can be wounded, tortured within an inch of his life and maimed, he can loose his sanity, loose loved ones about every bad thing in the book could happen to him other than death. Also none of the characters know when the pattern is done with them, perhaps this fight, this assassination attempt or this accident they are no longer fated to be anywhere else. It is like if a God is holding his hand over you, but you do not know exactly what said God want with you, or how long He or She will continue protecting you, or how much that protection will cost you. I do not think the series lack in the feeling of peril for the characters, even those we know will not die until the end, for so many other horrible things happen to them, and their fates say nothing about how damaged and broken they can be when the last battle comes.

[EmperorAllspice]

He isn't bound in Shayol Ghoul. Shayol Ghoul contains the bore that he originally tried to get through. It's pretty much a hole in a wall that's been plastered up. I'd assume it's the closest he can come to Randland without stepping through.

 

The bound by time thing I always assumed meant that he wwas bound by the way time applied to his minions

[TNine]

Not sure what you mean?

Isn't the phrase "Bound for all time" not "Bound by time"?

He can't resurrect people that died by balefire because he can't go into the past to get them back. He is bound by the turning of the wheel.

[Barid Bel Medar]

He is restricted because when he touches the Pattern, he has to (temporarily) abide by it's rules, which is time. Once he breaks into the pattern, he can do anything.

 

My own view on the DO's prison is that the Pattern is protected by a "shell" for the lack of a better word. Which the DO cannot penetrate. So to use the house metaphor, the DO is trying to break into a house, the Pattern, but so far he can only reach a hand through the window. Thus he is restricted in his ability. However, once he is inside the house, he can go round and do whatever he wants.

 

However, the discussion goes beyond simple answers, I recall there being a few threads on the subject if you want to continue the discussion.

[Hagazussa]

The Creator bound the Dark One outside of reality at the moment of creation. Now it may be that the Dark One is free to move around as he wants outside of the pattern, but I have envisioned it more like with so many other fantasy, science fiction and horror settings where the big bad is bound in some prison outside of known reality, that it is not like if the pattern is a house and the Dark One is a burglar trying to break in, but more as if the pattern is a house and the Dark One is locked in the garage but now a hole is poked though the wall that separate the house and the garage and the hasty fix nailed over that hole is about to break allowing the Dark One to break down the entire wall and make his way into the pattern itself. That is at least how I see it.

[Yosarian]

The Creator bound the Dark One outside of reality at the moment of creation.

 

Or so the characters believe. But now it seems someone in a differnet age, possibly even Rand himself, actually made or remade the prison that contains the DO, at some point between Rand's time and when then Age of Legends comes around again. People keep saying things like "how could any person re-create what the Creator made", but I don't know if the Creator ever did actually make the Dark One's prison.