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Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)


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does the dark side know that Alanna bonded Rand (assuming Alanna is not Black herself)? Elza knew (WH, Ch 25) but she was killed very quickly after SH contacted her. Anybody else?

 

All the Aes sedai in Caemlyn knew, so I imagine word got back to the Salidar AS, at least, and some of them were BA. I would guess it is general knowledge among AS.

 

Egwene only got one message from Merana (LoC, ch 9). It mentioned that "Alanna has formed an attachment to the wool merchant which may prove useful" but Egwene didn't understand what she was talking about. They didn't send any messages after they were taken by Rand so I don't believe any word from them came to Egwene. Also, when Egwene thinks that Elayne bonded Rand (TOM, ch 14) she doesn't remark on anything strange about it. If she knew that Alanna bonded Rand too she should have.

 

about DF ta'veren RJ said the following in an interview

 

It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta'veren, but it seems unlikely. Ta'veren are part of the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta'veren are created. I can't really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta'veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern.

This makes it clear that there are no DF ta'veren running around.

Edited by herid
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Speaking of bonds with Rand, Fain's bond with Rand is getting pushed out more and more. DIdn't he faint when Elayne, Min, and Avi bonded Rand? Does anyone think his bond will play an important role in the next book? I used to think it'd be central, and I suppose it still might be if you consider Fain to be the wildcard necessary to seal the bore without letting the DO touch the OP in any way, but it seems like RJ was trying to push the bond out of the equation.

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Egwene only got one message from Merana (LoC, ch 9). It mentioned that "Alanna has formed an attachment to the wool merchant which may prove useful" but Egwene didn't understand what she was talking about. They didn't send any messages after they were taken by Rand so I don't believe any word from them came to Egwene. Also, when Egwene thinks that Elayne bonded Rand (TOM, ch 14) she doesn't remark on anything strange about it. If she knew that Alanna bonded Rand too she should have.

Bode and the others made it to Salidar. That means their guardians did as well. I very much doubt that they've kept what they know to themselves.

 

DIdn't he faint when Elayne, Min, and Avi bonded Rand?

No, that's Alanna you're thinking of.

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Demira Eriff and the other Salidar Embassy Aes Sedai escorted the Two Rivers girls back to Salidar and should have brought with them word of Alanna's Forced Bonding. I found it annoying that with Ewgene, Lelaine, Suian and the rest of the Hall's hand wringing over Rand's sworn Aes Sedai, the bonding of Ashaman, and later the BT bonded Aes Sedai that the issue would have come up some way or another, at least with childhood friend Egwene, either in RJs books or Brandons version.

 

Perhaps Demira and the rest kept quiet, either because they didnt want it let known that their acceptance of Alanna among them almost certainly compromised Rand's attitude towards them and contributed to the failure of their embassy, or they are still following that antiquated custom of 'not interfering in another Aes Sedai's business, especially their warder' (which conflicts the stories about Warders bonded too early, and the criminal aspect of the bond).

 

I suppose another possibility is that given the number of threads that RJ was juggling, this one was dropped or he felt it wasnt important ( I hope not)

Edited by Damer Sedai
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Egwene only got one message from Merana (LoC, ch 9). It mentioned that "Alanna has formed an attachment to the wool merchant which may prove useful" but Egwene didn't understand what she was talking about. They didn't send any messages after they were taken by Rand so I don't believe any word from them came to Egwene. Also, when Egwene thinks that Elayne bonded Rand (TOM, ch 14) she doesn't remark on anything strange about it. If she knew that Alanna bonded Rand too she should have.

Bode and the others made it to Salidar. That means their guardians did as well. I very much doubt that they've kept what they know to themselves.

that's a good point. It's strange though that nobody in Salidar ever mentions that fact and Egwene never once thinks of it even when she thinks that Elayne must have bonded Rand. of course that scene was written by BS and this is the kind of detail that was very easy to overlook.

Demira Eriff and the other Salidar Embassy Aes Sedai escorted the Two Rivers girls back to Salidar and should have brought with them word of Alanna's Forced Bonding. I found it annoying that with Ewgene, Lelaine, Suian and the rest of the Hall's hand wringing over Rand's sworn Aes Sedai, the bonding of Ashaman, and later the BT bonded Aes Sedai that the issue would have come up some way or another, at least with childhood friend Egwene, either in RJs books or Brandons version.

 

Perhaps Demira and the rest kept quiet, either because they didnt want it let known that their acceptance of Alanna among them almost certainly compromised Rand's attitude towards them and contributed to the failure of their embassy, or they are still following that antiquated custom of 'not interfering in another Aes Sedai's business, especially their warder' (which conflicts the stories about Warders bonded too early, and the criminal aspect of the bond).

 

I suppose another possibility is that given the number of threads that RJ was juggling, this one was dropped or he felt it wasnt important ( I hope not)

Actually, we don't know exactly who made it to Salidar with Bode. Kiruna sent 4 Aeas Sedai back to Salidar: Berenicia, Demira, Kairen and Valinde (LOC, ch 49). But only two made it there (tPOD, ch 30) and they are not named. One of them must have been Kairen because she is mentioned several times as being present in salidar in CoT before Aran'gar kills her but who the other is is not clear. It's also not clear what happened to the other two. It might be that RJ just messed it up there. As you say he juggled a lot of people.

 

In any case it's possible but very unlikely that Kairen and the other one didn't tell anybody in Salidar about Alanna. Egwene would have questioned them and she should have asked to explain Merana's letter.

Edited by herid
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Actually, we don't know exactly who made it to Salidar with Bode. Kiruna sent 4 Aeas Sedai back to Salidar: Berenicia, Demira, Kairen and Valinde (LOC, ch 49). But only two made it there (tPOD, ch 30) and they are not named. One of them must have been Kairen because she is mentioned several times as being present in salidar in CoT before Aran'gar kills her but who the other is is not clear. It's also not clear what happened to the other two. It might be that RJ just messed it up there. As you say he juggled a lot of people.

 

In any case it's possible but very unlikely that Kairen and the other one didn't tell anybody in Salidar about Alanna. Egwene would have questioned them and she should have asked to explain Merana's letter.

 

So I guess that is my simple question then... Why doesn't anyone in the Salidar faction, Egwene included, give a damn that Alanna bonded Rand? Especially given that Egwene had noted earlier in the series that Alanna seem far to interested in Rand (as well as Mat/Perrin), and she has a particular noble streak about mind control (ad'am, compulsion, etc). It seems like someone would say something, either showing disgust, worrying how it would affect Dragon Reborn relations, downplaying it as a necessary evil... something. Anyone got any rationale?

Edited by Damer Sedai
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best guess for me is that Egwene doesn't know. AFAIK, no one has told her; at least no one has done so on screen. The Wise Ones know but they don't spread it about; they've become somewhat reticent about sharing information with Egwene since she left the Aiel tents. Obviously Alanna isn't going to tell anyone and Verin is dead without telling Egwene about it. Cadsuane and Egwene haven't met yet and the only encounter we see of anyone currently in Cadsuane's group of flunky AS with anyone of the Tower or Salidar is when Merise shows up in the Salidar camp with Jahar and his proposal re: bonding. Those sworn to Rand do not interact with Tower or Salidar Aes Sedai right now. Nynaeve, if she knows, hasn't mentioned it to her. Elayne, Aviendha and Min seem as though they wish to deal with Alanna personally instead of going through White Tower protocols...unless of course that doesn't prove satisfactory. So, we see no reaction because she simply does not know.

 

As far as I know, the only thing AS have done to Rand that she believes she has any need to apologize for is his captivity in LOC and that inherited from Elaida, not of her own doing.

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As far as I know, the only thing AS have done to Rand that she believes she has any need to apologize for is his captivity in LOC and that inherited from Elaida, not of her own doing.

that's a good point. so I guess we have to believe that the Aes Sedai that brought Bode and the other Two Rivers girls to Salidar didn't tell her. this sounds like a plot error although one can try to argue that they told the Hall (they were sent by the Hall after all) and the Hall kept it from Egwene as they were not on the best of terms at the time.

 

BTW, Nynaeve definitely knows about Alanna as of TOM, Ch 12 but likely much earlier. She should have told Egwene later when she told her of her time with Rand (TOM, ch 33) but perhaps she didn't.

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As far as I know, the only thing AS have done to Rand that she believes she has any need to apologize for is his captivity in LOC and that inherited from Elaida, not of her own doing.

that's a good point. so I guess we have to believe that the Aes Sedai that brought Bode and the other Two Rivers girls to Salidar didn't tell her. this sounds like a plot error although one can try to argue that they told the Hall (they were sent by the Hall after all) and the Hall kept it from Egwene as they were not on the best of terms at the time.

 

BTW, Nynaeve definitely knows about Alanna as of TOM, Ch 12 but likely much earlier. She should have told Egwene later when she told her of her time with Rand (TOM, ch 33) but perhaps she didn't.

 

Thanks, guys.

 

Thats what I assumed too - a general ignorance on the Towers (or at least Egwene's) part. At least for Egwene, I don't see her been that hypocritical, and it does fit her worldview at all. I couldn't be sure though, because of the general distasteful reaction most Aes sedai display when they become aware, from Verin, to Merana, to Kiruna, to Cadsuane (and maybe even Nynaeve, at least about the under-reaction part).

1. Distaste of the act a violation...

2. Then immediately assessing it as possible source of (mind) control

3. and when that proves useless, willfully ignoring all the negative implications of the bond.

 

I wonder if it will come to much in AMoL. So much to do, so much to do... Its kind of sad that the only non-coerced Channeler + Channer bonding situation is Rand's triple bond, and Beldeine+Karldin (I presume and hope this is the case anyway, in this pairing). I know that every bond is making the two parties grow closer, but I still dislike the master/servant relationship that is implied when there was no free choice, especially when the parties should be equals.

Edited by Damer Sedai
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yeah, I read it as a plot error and not character error, herid.

 

For Aes Sedai like Moiraine, I always thought that she viewed the Warder bond as a partnership with unequal ownership stakes - that is, they work together but she has the deciding vote, though on occasion Lan does manage to overrule her. For those like Merise, who seems to be training personal servants, I have a harder time dealing with it. It was encouraging to me to see that she was dithering on how to handle Jahar, who has not given in to her tight control like the others. It is to be hoped that once the problems between AS and Asha'man are resolved, that those Aes Sedai under the compelled version of the bond will be released and that a new version of the bond for those who wish to be that close with another in work or anything else which isn't one-sided. Something akin to how Asha'man bond their wives - at least, as it appears, since we don't know how much it mirrors the Warder bond.

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Are there really only three Ta'avren? Really? Rand is the biggest ta'avren in at least an age, but arguably in this entire turning of the wheel. Mat and Perrin are Hawking level ta'avren, who was the benchmark for the age as far as ta'avren-ness is concerned. But it is implied that there have been other ta'avren in recorded history, Heroes of the Horn incarnations, or maybe just regular people doing fantastic things. Ta'avren are described as people the pattern has set on a specifc path and control's their destiny, and through this machinations, changes are affected throughout the pattern, or even just that area, and even if just for a short time. So, there are lesser ta'avren in history.

 

Has it been ruled out that none of the other main characters (Nyn, Egwene, Elayne, Moir, Thom, etc.) are ta'avren? The channelers, at least, show very strong ta'avren properties (Egwene becomes Amerlyn a bare handful of years afting learning to channel, Nyn and Elayne are the bane of the BA and forsaken, even Thom has killed a king and sent a nation into war). It seems to me that the big three cast vast shadows that hide the ta'avren-ness of the others. The one thing is that Suian (and I think Nichola, but not sure. One of the novices or accepted in Salidar anyway) can "see" ta'avren. They see a glowing halo around the individual. So, it would have been remarked if Egwene, Nyn or Elayne had this glow. They don't, so either they are not or the Talent of seeing Ta'avren is imperfect. Destiny does seem to be guiding these other players, though, even when the big three are not in the immediate vicinity (though arguably just existing within the pattern is enough to affect changes anywhere in the world, a la Shara).

 

It would just make sense that these other characters are lesser ta'avren. There have even been moments where a person might comment about "believing he/she might be ta'avren, they've been so lucky/fortunate, etc."

 

Maybe the big three are just big red herrings. "Hey, Shadow! Look at these really shiny ta'avren! Don't you just want to send legions of trollocs, fades, darkfriends, gholum, soulless, forsaken, etc. at them? Aren't they just SOOOO dangerous and epic! Ooh, I do hope that you don't kill them!". Meanwhile a dozen or so lesser ta'avren are waltzing along the pattern, kicking ass, taking names, and righting wrongs.

In addition to what Suttree said, bear in mind that Siuan, Nicola and Logain can all see ta'veren, and none of them have commented on anyone besides Rand, Mat and Perrin, Loial identified the boys as ta'veren by their stories, and no-one has done the same for anyone else (even the readers - we should have seen enough signs, but there's no-one who can't be ruled out for other reasons), and Ishamael and Lanfear can both track ta'veren (and the others are aware of the method - Graendal thinks that it wasn't as easy as Moridin made out), but haven't come across any other ta'veren. Essentially, the only other people who could be ta'veren are minor characters who have never met Siuan, Logain or Nicola, who the text gives no indication of being ta'veren, and whose effects on the Pattern are so minimal that the Chosen can't notice them. Or, to put it another way, no. There are no other ta'veren.
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In one of the later books (can't recall which one, sorry), some of the Asha'man at the Black Tower are talking amongst themselves about their discomfort at how boys from the Two Rivers are being treated. Has anything come to light about what this means or what the implications might be?

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In one of the later books (can't recall which one, sorry), some of the Asha'man at the Black Tower are talking amongst themselves about their discomfort at how boys from the Two Rivers are being treated. Has anything come to light about what this means or what the implications might be?

 

They were just uncomfortable with how young some of them are. The youngest were 14 I believe, and the training conditions at the BT are... rather harsh.

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In one of the later books (can't recall which one, sorry), some of the Asha'man at the Black Tower are talking amongst themselves about their discomfort at how boys from the Two Rivers are being treated. Has anything come to light about what this means or what the implications might be?
There are at least 2 discussions at the Black Tower mentioning the Two Rivers guys.

Winter's Heart Prologue; Towers of Midnight Chapter 46.

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In one of the later books (can't recall which one, sorry), some of the Asha'man at the Black Tower are talking amongst themselves about their discomfort at how boys from the Two Rivers are being treated. Has anything come to light about what this means or what the implications might be?

 

They were just uncomfortable with how young some of them are. The youngest were 14 I believe, and the training conditions at the BT are... rather harsh.

 

I think it has more to do with the fact that the TR's lads are on the side of Rand, right and the Light. No where near as corruptable as other recruits.

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No, it was the age v. treatment that was remarked on, though some did point out that the Dragon wouldn't like people from his home ill treated, and others pointed out that it had been Rand himself who had told Taim to 'pluck the Two Rivers'.

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When Sammael and Graendal talk to Sevanna and the other renegade 'Wise Ones' in aCoS, Sammael calls Graendal "Maisia." She seems upset by the name so I assumed it means something in the Old Tongue. Anybody know?

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RJ answered that in an interview

Thomas Howard

 

What does Maisia mean? In case you don't remember, Sammael called Graendal this when they were messing with the Shaido.

Robert Jordan

 

Mr. Jordan stated that it was a name for pets in the Age of Legends, "like Fido or Fluffy".

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RJ answered that in an interview

Thomas Howard

 

What does Maisia mean? In case you don't remember, Sammael called Graendal this when they were messing with the Shaido.

Robert Jordan

 

Mr. Jordan stated that it was a name for pets in the Age of Legends, "like Fido or Fluffy".

 

HAHAHA, man Sammael had some balls calling Graendal that.

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RJ answered that in an interview

Thomas Howard

 

What does Maisia mean? In case you don't remember, Sammael called Graendal this when they were messing with the Shaido.

Robert Jordan

 

Mr. Jordan stated that it was a name for pets in the Age of Legends, "like Fido or Fluffy".

 

Thanks!

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Did the Red Ajah really aid Logain and convince him to proclaim himself the Dragon Reborn. Or is this a blatant lie from Siuan (now that she can lie)? If they did, who were in on it? The prologue of ACoS makes it very clear that Elaida wasn't part of it.

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Did the Red Ajah really aid Logain and convince him to proclaim himself the Dragon Reborn. Or is this a blatant lie from Siuan (now that she can lie)? If they did, who were in on it? The prologue of ACoS makes it very clear that Elaida wasn't part of it.

 

It was a lie from Siuan...

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I am pretty sure that was a lie from Suian. I'll have to look for the passage, but at one point she thinks to herself that it is good that the AS don't know she can lie, directly after mentioning Logain and the Reds.

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