Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[BFG]

I can't think what either, but in context with the story - it has to do with either the outcome of one of Elaidas schemes, the capture of Rand, or the BT, or something else, the way she was rasied, or something directly tied in to the above. Or maybe it does have something to do with the BA - it doesn't mean Alviarin has mis-spoken, after all she has access to secret records now as well - isn't it directly after this that Elaida sets up the BA hunters? Could be because of the 2000 reference, or because she already hates Alviarin that much?

[Hagazussa]

Well if the Black Ajah is 2000 years old that could be it, however why would Alviarin say that? Elaida is not black so she would not even understand the reference, and it to seam to me like she understand what Alviarin is talking about.

[BFG]

Could be that the BA revealed themselves - were caught, decimated, thought destroyed and ordered secret. But it seems like a stretch, I'm hoping for a more satisfying answer.

[Amandera]

I can't think what either, but in context with the story - it has to do with either the outcome of one of Elaidas schemes, the capture of Rand, or the BT, or something else, the way she was rasied, or something directly tied in to the above. Or maybe it does have something to do with the BA - it doesn't mean Alviarin has mis-spoken, after all she has access to secret records now as well - isn't it directly after this that Elaida sets up the BA hunters? Could be because of the 2000 reference, or because she already hates Alviarin that much?

Did Elaida set Seaine up to hunt the BA? I don't think so. She was very vague. Likely she was paranoid about Alviarin secretly working with rebels or trying to usurp her place as Amyrlin or Elaida just wanted dirt on Alviarin she could use.

 

Well if the Black Ajah is 2000 years old that could be it, however why would Alviarin say that? Elaida is not black so she would not even understand the reference, and it to seam to me like she understand what Alviarin is talking about.

She may have let it slip, I suppose. But like I said that's very unlikely for Alviarin.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Cem Önal

[BFG]

I can't think what either, but in context with the story - it has to do with either the outcome of one of Elaidas schemes, the capture of Rand, or the BT, or something else, the way she was rasied, or something directly tied in to the above. Or maybe it does have something to do with the BA - it doesn't mean Alviarin has mis-spoken, after all she has access to secret records now as well - isn't it directly after this that Elaida sets up the BA hunters? Could be because of the 2000 reference, or because she already hates Alviarin that much?

Did Elaida set Seaine up to hunt the BA? I don't think so. She was very vague. Likely she was paranoid about Alviarin secretly working with rebels or trying to usurp her place as Amyrlin or Elaida just wanted dirt on Alviarin she could use.

 

Well if the Black Ajah is 2000 years old that could be it, however why would Alviarin say that? Elaida is not black so she would not even understand the reference, and it to seam to me like she understand what Alviarin is talking about.

She may have let it slip, I suppose. But like I said that's very unlikely for Alviarin.

 

You're probably right, she never mentioned BA specifically, although the taboo around that is very strong - after sisters murdered and left the Tower, it's still not an acceptable subject - but she definately wanted Alviarin investigated.

 

I agree it's unlike Alviarin, to let is slip, but I find it harder to believe that it has to do with male Channelers, it could be to do with those that were lucky I guess (but do we knoe if that's even in the archives, or generally known about? - Moiraine and Siaune know, but would they tell anyone?). I suspect it will never be satisfactorily explained, unless someone more familiar with the books and interviews knows.

[Whizbang]

I just took it as exageration. 24 is as bad as a million. She just didn't exaggerate to a million because they are not used to dealing with such high numbers. Several hundred thousand is about as high as they need to count in people terms, more than that becomes impractical to manage and house. Sure, there are millions of people in Randland, and the Aiel army, at least, probably make up at least a million, but in the normal course of things, several thousand is a large group. So, if you are going to use the number 24, you might as well say 2000 for all the trouble it will bring.

 

Simple exaggeration, nothing more.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Whizbang

[BFG]

Could be, but 24 is a specific number that refers to the number of male channelers actually gentled after Aiel War, as opposed to the number actually recorded. That makes 24 a much worse number than 25, for example. So 2000 probably refers to something specific as well and the only other time 2000 comes up is to do with the founding of the BA, but as Hagazussa says it's unlikely Alviarin would make that mistake. But it seems to much a round number to refer to a number of deaths and the BA was around 2000 years ago, so it's up in the air, and you could well be right.

[Tyler Glembo]

Since we are talking numbers I have a question about numbers. Specifically with the Aiel and how it adds up that Rand supposedly have every clan with him except the Shaido and yet the Shaido present such a problem.

 

1) It took only 4 Aiel clans (supposedly) to go after Laman during the Aiel wars. Just 4 clans ravaged the entire wetlands.

2) The Shaido are all by themselves.

3) Rand has EVERY OTHER CLAN. Every one. And yet the Aiel around him seem to not effectively tip things in his favor as they should, example is Dumai Wells. The Shaido "Wise Ones" seem even in number to the rest of the Wise Ones from every other clan combined. If the Shaido had around 200 Wise Ones in that battle (or maybe it was ~100), shouldn't the number of Wise Ones opposing have been 1000+, which would have been overwhelming? Also, Rhuarc is saying that he can't move enough spears to go after Rand because a few thousand Shaido might be coming to Cairhein. Shouldn't there be millions of Aiel following Rand?

 

4) Consider when they left the Waste through Jangai pass following Couladin and then battled him outside Cairhein. I know about the bleakness, but I just can't imagine that it entirely makes up for such a huge initial difference. If the Shaido had 140,000 then why is it, before Rand had the other 4 clans following (Miagoma's clan, etc), it was an even battle? Even if Rand only had 5 clans following him, that should mean he had 700,000 spears to the Shaido's 140,000 and it should have been an easy battle.

[Whizbang]

At Cairhein, they wanted to make sure that the Shaido did not enter the city, so they were limited in what they could do. At Dumai's Wells, I do not believe all the Wise Ones under Rand came, only enough to get the job done without alerting the rest of the Aiel that something was wrong. Same goes for the number of Aiel sent to free Rand. Ruarc was worried that if it was known that Rand was captured by Aes Sedai, there would be a second belakness, worse than before. So, only the Siswai'aman and Far Dareis Mai were sent, because it was determined they would not break at the news. So, it was only a fraction of the Aiel force against the Shaido.

 

Also, not everyone who got the bleakness broke/dropped their spears. Many went to the Shaido. Also, and I could be wrong on this, the Shaido brought the entire clan. The other Aiel clans only brought the warriors. There are still plenty of Aiel left in the waste.

[Amandera]

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/military-forces-of-westlands.html

 

This is as good a source as there is on military strength.

[batcaver]

Hopefully this is the place to ask this - where was the last place we actually saw Logain? I can't remember and I don't want to reread just for that...

[Finnssss22]

I don't think the question was about the "vileness". I think he was asking about the significance of number 2000.

 

My personal opinion, it was only a figure of speech. It's a stretch but maybe like outing of that secret would be as dangerous to the WT as having 2000 Asha'man in BT. Alternatively, it could be something about BA, but I have a hard time believing cool, controlled Alviarin would blabber the secrets of BA in front of Elaida. IIRC, Black Ajah is 2000 years old.

 

Alviarin might be cool but she also has some bravado and a sense of superiority to her.

Slipping in the number 2000 to a person she considers too ignorant and too dense to take note of it like Elaida is something I could definitly see her doing.

 

In New Spring, in just the short time that book spans, we heard of how many lucky men and boys being killed? 3 I believe and attempt on Lan.

Then in the Epilogue, when Siuan figures out that the Black Ajah knows that the Dragon has been reborn but not when and they are killing any man or boy that is lucky, she not only estimates thousands, she says tens of thousands. Remember, this went on for almost 4 years before Ishamael put a stop to it.

We know the BA was very active during this time as well due to the fact that they went around and killed every sister that Tamra Ospenya had confided in and sent looking for the DR.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Finnssss

[Finnssss22]

Hopefully this is the place to ask this - where was the last place we actually saw Logain? I can't remember and I don't want to reread just for that...

 

Right after the capture of Semirhage is the last time we ACTUALLY saw Logain.

 

According to any timeline I have found, that was early April and by the end of ToM is it now early July. A span of almost 3 months.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Finnssss

[Tyler Glembo]

At Cairhein, they wanted to make sure that the Shaido did not enter the city, so they were limited in what they could do. At Dumai's Wells, I do not believe all the Wise Ones under Rand came, only enough to get the job done without alerting the rest of the Aiel that something was wrong. Same goes for the number of Aiel sent to free Rand. Ruarc was worried that if it was known that Rand was captured by Aes Sedai, there would be a second belakness, worse than before. So, only the Siswai'aman and Far Dareis Mai were sent, because it was determined they would not break at the news. So, it was only a fraction of the Aiel force against the Shaido.

 

Also, not everyone who got the bleakness broke/dropped their spears. Many went to the Shaido. Also, and I could be wrong on this, the Shaido brought the entire clan. The other Aiel clans only brought the warriors. There are still plenty of Aiel left in the waste.

http://13depository....-westlands.html

 

This is as good a source as there is on military strength.

 

Thanks!

[Amandera]

I don't think the question was about the "vileness". I think he was asking about the significance of number 2000.

 

My personal opinion, it was only a figure of speech. It's a stretch but maybe like outing of that secret would be as dangerous to the WT as having 2000 Asha'man in BT. Alternatively, it could be something about BA, but I have a hard time believing cool, controlled Alviarin would blabber the secrets of BA in front of Elaida. IIRC, Black Ajah is 2000 years old.

 

Alviarin might be cool but she also has some bravado and a sense of superiority to her.

Slipping in the number 2000 to a person she considers too ignorant and too dense to take note of it like Elaida is something I could definitly see her doing.

 

In New Spring, in just the short time that book spans, we heard of how many lucky men and boys being killed? 3 I believe and attempt on Lan.

Then in the Epilogue, when Siuan figures out that the Black Ajah knows that the Dragon has been reborn but not when, she not only estimates thousands, she says tens of thousands and remember, this went on for almost 4 years before Ishamael put a stop to it.

We know the BA was very active during this time as well due to the fact that they went around and killed every sister that Tamra Ospenya had confided in and sent looking for the DR.

I don't know. We can only speculate.

 

Hopefully this is the place to ask this - where was the last place we actually saw Logain? I can't remember and I don't want to reread just for that...

 

Right after the capture of Semirhage is the last time we ACTUALLY saw Logain.

Yes, after this Rand sends Logain to BT. But either he disobeys or is captured, he simply vanishes. My personal opinion, he is somewhere organizing the Asha'man outside the BT to take Taim down.

[Finnssss22]

 

Yes, after this Rand sends Logain to BT. But either he disobeys or is captured, he simply vanishes. My personal opinion, he is somewhere organizing the Asha'man outside the BT to take Taim down.

 

Actually, I don't think Rand sent him any where after this.

[batcaver]

Thanks!

[Amandera]

Yes, after this Rand sends Logain to BT. But either he disobeys or is captured, he simply vanishes. My personal opinion, he is somewhere organizing the Asha'man outside the BT to take Taim down.

 

Actually, I don't think Rand sent him any where after this.

I guess I shouldn't have said it as a certain thing. This was my inclination from the way Rand thinks Logain is at BT at ToM. I'm referring to the scene before the meeting with Borderlanders when he sends Naeff to the BT. The "tell Logain and his men we're not weapons" business.

[Finnssss22]

Yes, after this Rand sends Logain to BT. But either he disobeys or is captured, he simply vanishes. My personal opinion, he is somewhere organizing the Asha'man outside the BT to take Taim down.

 

Actually, I don't think Rand sent him any where after this.

I guess I shouldn't have said it as a certain thing. This was my inclination from the way Rand thinks Logain is at BT at ToM. I'm referring to the scene before the meeting with Borderlanders when he sends Naeff to the BT. The "tell Logain and his men we're not weapons" business.

 

 

Between the BT timeline being behind to varying degrees throughout ToM and some contradictory things mentioned in Androl's PoV's about Logain, it's actually pretty confusing.

[Finnssss22]

In fact, there's still the question of what happened to the half of the Black Tower that Rand had Logain send to Arad Doman and Illian back in KoD 18.

 

I assume some of the ones sent to Arad Doman ended up with Ituralde but the ones in Illian, we haven't heard a peep about.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Finnssss

[Whizbang]

Are there really only three Ta'avren? Really? Rand is the biggest ta'avren in at least an age, but arguably in this entire turning of the wheel. Mat and Perrin are Hawking level ta'avren, who was the benchmark for the age as far as ta'avren-ness is concerned. But it is implied that there have been other ta'avren in recorded history, Heroes of the Horn incarnations, or maybe just regular people doing fantastic things. Ta'avren are described as people the pattern has set on a specifc path and control's their destiny, and through this machinations, changes are affected throughout the pattern, or even just that area, and even if just for a short time. So, there are lesser ta'avren in history.

 

Has it been ruled out that none of the other main characters (Nyn, Egwene, Elayne, Moir, Thom, etc.) are ta'avren? The channelers, at least, show very strong ta'avren properties (Egwene becomes Amerlyn a bare handful of years afting learning to channel, Nyn and Elayne are the bane of the BA and forsaken, even Thom has killed a king and sent a nation into war). It seems to me that the big three cast vast shadows that hide the ta'avren-ness of the others. The one thing is that Suian (and I think Nichola, but not sure. One of the novices or accepted in Salidar anyway) can "see" ta'avren. They see a glowing halo around the individual. So, it would have been remarked if Egwene, Nyn or Elayne had this glow. They don't, so either they are not or the Talent of seeing Ta'avren is imperfect. Destiny does seem to be guiding these other players, though, even when the big three are not in the immediate vicinity (though arguably just existing within the pattern is enough to affect changes anywhere in the world, a la Shara).

 

It would just make sense that these other characters are lesser ta'avren. There have even been moments where a person might comment about "believing he/she might be ta'avren, they've been so lucky/fortunate, etc."

 

Maybe the big three are just big red herrings. "Hey, Shadow! Look at these really shiny ta'avren! Don't you just want to send legions of trollocs, fades, darkfriends, gholum, soulless, forsaken, etc. at them? Aren't they just SOOOO dangerous and epic! Ooh, I do hope that you don't kill them!". Meanwhile a dozen or so lesser ta'avren are waltzing along the pattern, kicking ass, taking names, and righting wrongs.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Whizbang

[Suttree]

Are there really only three Ta'avren? Really? Rand is the biggest ta'avren in at least an age, but arguably in this entire turning of the wheel. Mat and Perrin are Hawking level ta'avren, who was the benchmark for the age as far as ta'avren-ness is concerned. But it is implied that there have been other ta'avren in recorded history, Heroes of the Horn incarnations, or maybe just regular people doing fantastic things. Ta'avren are described as people the pattern has set on a specifc path and control's their destiny, and through this machinations, changes are affected throughout the pattern, or even just that area, and even if just for a short time. So, there are lesser ta'avren in history.

 

Has it been ruled out that none of the other main characters (Nyn, Egwene, Elayne, Moir, Thom, etc.) are ta'avren? The channelers, at least, show very strong ta'avren properties (Egwene becomes Amerlyn a bare handful of years afting learning to channel, Nyn and Elayne are the bane of the BA and forsaken, even Thom has killed a king and sent a nation into war). It seems to me that the big three cast vast shadows that hide the ta'avren-ness of the others. The one thing is that Suian (and I think Nichola, but not sure. One of the novices or accepted in Salidar anyway) can "see" ta'avren. They see a glowing halo around the individual. So, it would have been remarked if Egwene, Nyn or Elayne had this glow. They don't, so either they are not or the Talent of seeing Ta'avren is imperfect. Destiny does seem to be guiding these other players, though, even when the big three are not in the immediate vicinity (though arguably just existing within the pattern is enough to affect changes anywhere in the world, a la Shara).

 

It would just make sense that these other characters are lesser ta'avren. There have even been moments where a person might comment about "believing he/she might be ta'avren, they've been so lucky/fortunate, etc."

 

Maybe the big three are just big red herrings. "Hey, Shadow! Look at these really shiny ta'avren! Don't you just want to send legions of trollocs, fades, darkfriends, gholum, soulless, forsaken, etc. at them? Aren't they just SOOOO dangerous and epic! Ooh, I do hope that you don't kill them!". Meanwhile a dozen or so lesser ta'avren are waltzing along the pattern, kicking ass, taking names, and righting wrongs.

 

Per RJ none of the major female characters are Ta'veren.

[herid]

does the dark side know that Alanna bonded Rand (assuming Alanna is not Black herself)? Elza knew (WH, Ch 25) but she was killed very quickly after SH contacted her. Anybody else?

[Gythwyn]

Do we know if there have ever been any Darkside Ta'avren?

Edited October 16, 2012 by Gythwyn

[Whizbang]

does the dark side know that Alanna bonded Rand (assuming Alanna is not Black herself)? Elza knew (WH, Ch 25) but she was killed very quickly after SH contacted her. Anybody else?

 

All the Aes sedai in Caemlyn knew, so I imagine word got back to the Salidar AS, at least, and some of them were BA. I would guess it is general knowledge among AS.

 

Do we know if there have ever been any Darkside Ta'avren?

It was mentioned that Rand/LTT in a different age has gone to the shadow. So, assuming he was ta'veren in that age, then yes. Unless ta'veren-ness stops once you swear to the shadow?

Edited October 16, 2012 by Whizbang