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Would you call the Bastard of Bolton a competent villain?

No, I'd call him a poor misguided soul. He's a bad man, yes, but he hardly is the Winter Nan promised us all this time ago.

 

As for JRRM's world - who are the villians? Do you mean the monsters on the other side of the wall?

The Others and their Wights, yes. And their God, most likely.

Gotcha. I tried to figure out who the story is really about. I think it's the Kingdom over all others.

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That's not a completely valid comparison, because we've actually seen very little of GRRM's true villains. It's his protagonists that have been slaying each other up until now.

 

And, as long as we're talking about the Forsaken, one of the most effective among them has been... wait for it... Mesaana. You simply don't see her driving hand behind the events in question until the very end.

 

True, but she too falls prey to her own incompetence.

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The problem is, if villains acted competantly or didnt have a major character flaw, they would in general be unbeatable.

 

The reason for this is, for a good character to be heroic they have to be up against the odds, fighting against superior forces or vastly outnumbered. If the villain didnt do something stupid to screw it up, they'd never win and a lot of people wouldnt enjoy the story.

 

Myself i've always prefered characters which embody both darkness and light, even evil characters have to have reasons for what they do, and they must have good chracteristics to an extent, even if its just something as silly as a fondness for white fluffy cats. Purely evil characters are one dimensional and poorly written.

 

 

Also as for WoT Villains, bear in mind that most of them were corrupted due to their stupidity/jealousy/greed/hate. They were hardly the cream of the crop, and the darkside as a whole scheme against each other 10x more than against the light.

 

Pretty much exactly what I said. In a fair battle, power wise, all things equal, Evil would win every time unless they do something really stupid, or get really unlucky. The whole willing to do whatever it takes to win kinda gives you a huge edge.

 

I haven't really gotten into GRRM yet, but you're telling me the good guys get their asses handed to them over and over? Or they are willing to do what it takes, regardless of morals, to beat evil? Because otherwise they're lucky as hell.

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I haven't really gotten into GRRM yet, but you're telling me the good guys get their asses handed to them over and over? Or they are willing to do what it takes, regardless of morals, to beat evil? Because otherwise they're lucky as hell.

actually a main bad guy has not been truly identified yet, we have glimpses of things that are truly evil, but have not seen the controller. Its mostly been cairheinin politics, which is a reason I dislike the series somewhat, most of my favourite characters die in rather dishonourable ways

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Could Lanfear have compelled Mat when she met him in the tower in TDR? Chapter 20, Visitations page 227 in the paperback that has book 1-10 listed.

 

I've always wondered what she did to him on that day.

 

 

 

EDIT: Thank you Luckers

Edited by doihavepotential
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Could Lanfear have compelled Mat when she met him in the tower in TDR? Chapter 20, Visitations page 227 in the paperback that has book 1-10 listed.

 

I've always wondered what she did to him on that day.

 

According to RJ, she just checked his health.

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What did the dice no longer spinning in mats head symbolise?

I think it's more than that. The dice seemed to imply that he was set on the road to some life-altering moment/decision. For example, agreeing to accompany Nynaeve and Elayne to the Tarasin Palace ignited those dice because it meant he would meet Tuon, and indeed they stopped rolling when he did. One other example is when he decided to rescue Moiraine -- that decision was what the dice signify at the time.

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What did the dice no longer spinning in mats head symbolise?

I think it's more than that. The dice seemed to imply that he was set on the road to some life-altering moment/decision. For example, agreeing to accompany Nynaeve and Elayne to the Tarasin Palace ignited those dice because it meant he would meet Tuon, and indeed they stopped rolling when he did. One other example is when he decided to rescue Moiraine -- that decision was what the dice signify at the time.

I agree - the dice start rolling for him in Ebou Dar and he meets the gholam in an alley way. He fights him and Noal comes and saves him (because the gholam has orders not to kill in front of others). But, the dice keep rolling. It's not until he meets Tuon in the palace that the dice stop rolling. It wasn't the danger from the gholam but the momentous event of meeting Tuon.

 

Instead of Spidey Sense, he has Gambler Sense.

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Re-reading tPoD. When Rand rains fire and lightning on his own troops (and kills Adley) using Callandor, do we know definitively if this is due to Saidin being "alive" following the use of the Bowl of the Winds or is it due to the flaw in Callandor?

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Re-reading tPoD. When Rand rains fire and lightning on his own troops (and kills Adley) using Callandor, do we know definitively if this is due to Saidin being "alive" following the use of the Bowl of the Winds or is it due to the flaw in Callandor?

 

 

 

WoT Faq

What's the deal with the "flaw"?

 

In [TPOD: 27, The Bargain, 539-540], Cadsuane tells Rand about a flaw in Callandor, which she claims to have discovered in some moldy documents in the Tower Library:

 

"It is flawed, lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind. So long as a man is using it, anyway. The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows."

This not only explains the mess Rand made of things at the end of the Ebou Dar campaign (which was compounded by the Ebou Dar Power Anomaly), but also the megalomania displayed by Rand during and after the attack in the Stone in [TSR: 10, The Stone Stands, 136-138]. What insanity? As John Rowat points out, "He went a little nutso, thought he could raise the dead, and it took him an hour or so to realize that he could just fry all the bad guys at once."

 

Recall that he continued channeling long after what was happening became apparent. Bashere had to knock him out to get him to stop. This was due to the wildness of the mind caused by the flaw. Also keep in mind both Dashiva and Bashere had counciled him against that course of action. It is a stark reminder of what happens when Rand tries to go it alone as his mood gets worse.

Edited by Suttree
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Re-reading tPoD. When Rand rains fire and lightning on his own troops (and kills Adley) using Callandor, do we know definitively if this is due to Saidin being "alive" following the use of the Bowl of the Winds or is it due to the flaw in Callandor?

 

combination of both, imo. We saw where another Asha'man lost control of his weave because of how "alive" saidin is. But there is no doubt that the magnification of the taint was on display, as Rand is out of control until Bashere breaks through.

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Re-reading tPoD. When Rand rains fire and lightning on his own troops (and kills Adley) using Callandor, do we know definitively if this is due to Saidin being "alive" following the use of the Bowl of the Winds or is it due to the flaw in Callandor?

 

combination of both, imo. We saw where another Asha'man lost control of his weave because of how "alive" saidin is. But there is no doubt that the magnification of the taint was on display, as Rand is out of control until Bashere breaks through.

 

A better question is, why did using the bowl cause Sadain to come alive? Was that ever explained?

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Re-reading tPoD. When Rand rains fire and lightning on his own troops (and kills Adley) using Callandor, do we know definitively if this is due to Saidin being "alive" following the use of the Bowl of the Winds or is it due to the flaw in Callandor?

 

combination of both, imo. We saw where another Asha'man lost control of his weave because of how "alive" saidin is. But there is no doubt that the magnification of the taint was on display, as Rand is out of control until Bashere breaks through.

 

A better question is, why did using the bowl cause Sadain to come alive? Was that ever explained?

it was both saidar and saidin that came alive. they never explain it, probably the enormous amount of power used and... well, it's weather. It's everywhere.

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I never was completely sure that it was related to the Bowl, per se. Maybe it was. Maybe it's also related to that high explosive-equivalent blast that Elayne set off when she and the Kin departed the Farm ahead of the Seanchan invasion.

 

If it was ever said conclusively what caused it, I missed that entirely, so if it has been stated elsewhere, my apologies.

 

edit: and if it was the Bowl, I highly suspect it is related to a usage that is not what the Bowl was designed for. According to Moridin's PoV, weather was highly regulated by ter'angreal in the AoL, but no one had the kind of weather control that certain channelers do now. By forcing the Bowl, which is likely one of those surviving ter'angreal, to perform a function well beyond its designed use, perhaps that caused the instability we see.

Edited by QuietAiel
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I never was completely sure that it was related to the Bowl, per se. Maybe it was. Maybe it's also related to that high explosive-equivalent blast that Elayne set off when she and the Kin departed the Farm ahead of the Seanchan invasion.

 

If it was ever said conclusively what caused it, I missed that entirely, so if it has been stated elsewhere, my apologies.

 

edit: and if it was the Bowl, I highly suspect it is related to a usage that is not what the Bowl was designed for. According to Moridin's PoV, weather was highly regulated by ter'angreal in the AoL, but no one had the kind of weather control that certain channelers do now. By forcing the Bowl, which is likely one of those surviving ter'angreal, to perform a function well beyond its designed use, perhaps that caused the instability we see.

 

Here you go..

 

Interview: Nov 21st, 1998

TPOD Signing Report - John Novak (Paraphrased)

Question

 

The Bowl: Someone asked him whether, if men had helped the Aes Sedai and Windfinders and Kin channel through the Bowl, the One Power would still have been screwed up.

Robert Jordan

 

His implicit assumption was that the Bowl screwed things up. I expected this to be a sheer RAFO. I was surprised. He went into a relatively detailed explanation to the effect that the Bowl was stressed far, far beyond its original design parameters because of the advanced knowledge of the Windfinders. It was affecting a global pattern, when it was designed for only a small region. Men helping would not have changed anything, and the effects linger most strongly near Ebou Dar, but also along the "spokes" which radiated from that place. (I should have asked if a spoke went out over Tear.)

Footnote

 

The 'relatively detailed explanation' can be found in TPOD 2, Moridin's POV. Moridin noted that the Bowl was originally a ter'angreal designed to control the weather in small areas, and that the Sea Folk were likely capable of stretching its abilities far beyond its intended capacity (since they could do unaided what should have required the Bowl, by Age of Legends standards).

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A better question is, why did using the bowl cause Sadain to come alive? Was that ever explained?

It is the Bowl, and QuiteAiel is right. It's because it was strained beyond what it was meant to do.

Question

The Bowl: Someone asked him whether, if men had helped the Aes Sedai and Windfinders and Kin channel through the Bowl, the One Power would still have been screwed up.

Robert Jordan

His implicit assumption was that the Bowl screwed things up. I expected this to be a sheer RAFO. I was surprised. He went into a relatively detailed explanation to the effect that the Bowl was stressed far, far beyond its original design parameters because of the advanced knowledge of the Windfinders. It was affecting a global pattern, when it was designed for only a small region. Men helping would not have changed anything, and the effects linger most strongly near Ebou Dar, but also along the "spokes" which radiated from that place. (I should have asked if a spoke went out over Tear.)

 

EDIT: crap, shanghaied by Suttree :wink:

Edited by yoniy0
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Asked this (or something similar) in another thread, but the answer I got did not satisfy me.

When the Bowl was used, from where did the saidin come from?

Whatever the answer, please backup from either author.

 

 

About villains, Song of Ice & Fire seems to have little or none. Since a number of the "bad guys" seem to become good in some way and a number of the "good guys" seem to become bad in some way. So far read the first 4 books; have not yet read the 5th.

 

Monsters (from any series/book/etc) I would not count as villains.

At least these reasons::

-they seem to act from instinct.

-main bad they do seems to be just kill/torture; with seemingly primitive methods.

-they seldom survive for long.

Edited by mb
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The Ter'angreal drew on Saidin, probably because for effective control of the weather it was best if saidin and saidar were used together. It was made with this in mind so it could be used when only one gender is present.

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Thanks Yo and Sutt.

 

That's odd. So the WIndfinders are better at weather than the people in AOL, and it stressed the device. Hmm, I wonder if you can stress a Ter'Angral enough to break or if this proves it can't.

 

Oh well.

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Thanks Yo and Sutt.

 

That's odd. So the WIndfinders are better at weather than the people in AOL, and it stressed the device. Hmm, I wonder if you can stress a Ter'Angral enough to break or if this proves it can't.

 

Oh well.

You can do it with a sarangreal - Choeden Kal.

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I was wondering, does anyone have a list of the named characters the Fain/Ordeith corrupted when he was criss crossing the globe making Madeshar-intensified trouble for team LIght?

 

Mine is

PEdron Niall

Eladia

....

hmm...

Dain Bornhold

 

Also, have we seen anyone who has Fain-induced paranoia return to baseline as it were? I wonder if Dain is the only one who is one that path.

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