Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[EmperorAllspice]

What book does Ishamael appear again in? I want to read a book where the main characters are actually threatened by someone COMPETENT for once! It's beginning to piss me off how useless the Shadow are

[thisguy]

What book does Ishamael appear again in? I want to read a book where the main characters are actually threatened by someone COMPETENT for once! It's beginning to piss me off how useless the Shadow are

Book 1 - when they meet Balzamon in their dreams, that's really Ish. But, Rand's first battle with him is over the skies of Falme at the end of book 2.

[Vardar]

I guess I'm just bitter that Bel'al is specificallysaid to be intelligent and cunning yet we don't really see it in action. It's a phenomenon called an informed ability. He took control of Tear, sure, but all of the Forsaken appear quite capable of attaining high positions in cities. I thought he specifically stood out above the rest. Guess I was wrong.

 

His ultimate strategy of "Getting Callandor by giving it to Rand then beating him and taking it from him" seemed a bit ill thought out for a supposedly cunning schemer

 

He spread those rumors. He also spread about that he was the hotness, and ladies loved him.

 

Can you blame him? I mean, if you were evil and used compulsion freely, you wouldn't make a Rep for yourself? Pshhh I would.

[EmperorAllspice]

What book does Ishamael appear again in? I want to read a book where the main characters are actually threatened by someone COMPETENT for once! It's beginning to piss me off how useless the Shadow are

Book 1 - when they meet Balzamon in their dreams, that's really Ish. But, Rand's first battle with him is over the skies of Falme at the end of book 2.

 

I know that's Ishy, and he's by FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR my favourite character so far, that's why I said when does he appear AGAIN? Not as Balzy

[thisguy]

What book does Ishamael appear again in? I want to read a book where the main characters are actually threatened by someone COMPETENT for once! It's beginning to piss me off how useless the Shadow are

Book 1 - when they meet Balzamon in their dreams, that's really Ish. But, Rand's first battle with him is over the skies of Falme at the end of book 2.

 

I know that's Ishy, and he's by FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR my favourite character so far, that's why I said when does he appear AGAIN? Not as Balzy

He only attacks - physically - Rand twice - End of Book 2, where they're both wounded by the other. End of Book 3 - where he's fried by Callandor. After that, we don't see him again until he's Moridin, I believe. He helps Rand out at Shadar Logoth when he's facing Sammael.

[EmperorAllspice]

So... no intelligent opposition... whatsoever...? I'm just gonna have to put up with books upon books of the main characters being awesome? :(

Edited September 10, 2012 by EmperorAllspice

[thisguy]

So... no intelligent opposition... whatsoever...? I'm just gonna have to put up with books upon books of the main characters being awesome? :(

Most of what you see are the main characters having to deal with dumbasses and people who won't fall in line. Sammael does some good damage when Rand and the Aiel fight the Shaido at Cairhien. But, yeah, the good guys get away with plenty.

[Thrasymachus]

Don't forget about their fight at the end of the Eye of the World. Ishy was a crispy critter for a while after that encounter. By my count, there's been three confrontations between Rand and Ishy that have ended in violence, in the EotW, tGH, and tDR.

[thisguy]

Don't forget about their fight at the end of the Eye of the World. Ishy was a crispy critter for a while after that encounter. By my count, there's been three confrontations between Rand and Ishy that have ended in violence, in the EotW, tGH, and tDR.

Right you are. I completely overlooked that.

[EmperorAllspice]

So... no intelligent opposition... whatsoever...? I'm just gonna have to put up with books upon books of the main characters being awesome? :(

Most of what you see are the main characters having to deal with dumbasses and people who won't fall in line. Sammael does some good damage when Rand and the Aiel fight the Shaido at Cairhien. But, yeah, the good guys get away with plenty.

 

(rubs temples stressfully)

[Vardar]

So... no intelligent opposition... whatsoever...? I'm just gonna have to put up with books upon books of the main characters being awesome? :(

Most of what you see are the main characters having to deal with dumbasses and people who won't fall in line. Sammael does some good damage when Rand and the Aiel fight the Shaido at Cairhien. But, yeah, the good guys get away with plenty.

 

(rubs temples stressfully)

 

Didn't we have this discussion last week? Super VIllians are always idiots! That's life. Name a Super Villian in a series, or life, and I'll show you how dumb he/she was.

 

There has to be some exceptions, I really hate speaking in definites, but I can't think of any. :(

[EmperorAllspice]

So... no intelligent opposition... whatsoever...? I'm just gonna have to put up with books upon books of the main characters being awesome? :(

Most of what you see are the main characters having to deal with dumbasses and people who won't fall in line. Sammael does some good damage when Rand and the Aiel fight the Shaido at Cairhien. But, yeah, the good guys get away with plenty.

 

(rubs temples stressfully)

 

Didn't we have this discussion last week? Super VIllians are always idiots! That's life. Name a Super Villian in a series, or life, and I'll show you how dumb he/she was.

 

There has to be some exceptions, I really hate speaking in definites, but I can't think of any. :(

 

Well, I can't accept that, Vard. You ALSO said that they succesfully manage to threaten the main cast. My LIFE is based around villains. They are what I care about. They are what I enjoy. I... I... grrrrr

[Vardar]

So... no intelligent opposition... whatsoever...? I'm just gonna have to put up with books upon books of the main characters being awesome? :(

Most of what you see are the main characters having to deal with dumbasses and people who won't fall in line. Sammael does some good damage when Rand and the Aiel fight the Shaido at Cairhien. But, yeah, the good guys get away with plenty.

 

(rubs temples stressfully)

 

Didn't we have this discussion last week? Super VIllians are always idiots! That's life. Name a Super Villian in a series, or life, and I'll show you how dumb he/she was.

 

There has to be some exceptions, I really hate speaking in definites, but I can't think of any. :(

 

Well, I can't accept that, Vard. You ALSO said that they succesfully manage to threaten the main cast. My LIFE is based around villains. They are what I care about. They are what I enjoy. I... I... grrrrr

 

Lol. I feel your pain good sir! It kills me how villians are cast into the foolish bumbling idiot roll! Villians have feelings too! They need to win occasionally. You'd think if they were so idiotic they would have been stopped before they reached the supervillian level, alas they aren't.

[EmperorAllspice]

...You don't know my pain. Really, you don't.

[thisguy]

What books do you suggest with competent villians? Baron Harkonen does a pretty good job for a while...

[EmperorAllspice]

This issue isn't with them making a mistake. That's fine. I need a villain who can BEST the main character in some way, at last for a while, and who is dominant.

 

I care more about scheming than I do fighting. So I'm looking for villains in this series who have good plans, or who's plans work up until a point

Edited September 10, 2012 by EmperorAllspice

[Suttree]

What books do you suggest with competent villians? Baron Harkonen does a pretty good job for a while...

 

Jaqueline Carey "The Sundering Series" has an interesting take on the whole thing.

 

Song of Ice and Fire def fits the bill as does "The Prince of Nothing" by R. Scott Bakker & Joe Abercrombie's books.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Suttree

[thisguy]

That's defintely true - JRR Martin really treats his characters like @#%$. Which is refreshing to see. I haven't read the other books. I'll put them on my list. Thanks, man.

[Suttree]

That's defintely true - JRR Martin really treats his characters like @#%$. Which is refreshing to see. I haven't read the other books. I'll put them on my list. Thanks, man.

 

No worries, I recommned them both but R. Scott Bakker is my favorite fantasy author out right now by a good margin. Excellant prose and a very detailed world. You want to start with these...

 

http://en.wikipedia....ince_of_Nothing

Edited September 10, 2012 by Suttree

[yoniy0]

That's not a completely valid comparison, because we've actually seen very little of GRRM's true villains. It's his protagonists that have been slaying each other up until now.

 

And, as long as we're talking about the Forsaken, one of the most effective among them has been... wait for it... Mesaana. You simply don't see her driving hand behind the events in question until the very end.

[Suttree]

That's not a completely valid comparison, because we've actually seen very little of GRRM's true villains. It's his protagonists that have been slaying each other up until now.

 

Would you call the Bastard of Bolton a competent villain?

[thisguy]

That's not a completely valid comparison, because we've actually seen very little of GRRM's true villains. It's his protagonists that have been slaying each other up until now.

 

And, as long as we're talking about the Forsaken, one of the most effective among them has been... wait for it... Mesaana. You simply don't see her driving hand behind the events in question until the very end.

That's true - Mesaana - she doesn't do anything flashy, like destroying half an army - but she sure screws with the Tower well. But, that's a problem with RJ's writing, in my opinion. So much of what the forsaken do that actually WORKS is never shown completely. The reader's left guessing at it.

 

As for JRRM's world - who are the villians? Do you mean the monsters on the other side of the wall?

Edited September 10, 2012 by thisguy

[Morden]

The problem is, if villains acted competantly or didnt have a major character flaw, they would in general be unbeatable.

 

The reason for this is, for a good character to be heroic they have to be up against the odds, fighting against superior forces or vastly outnumbered. If the villain didnt do something stupid to screw it up, they'd never win and a lot of people wouldnt enjoy the story.

 

Myself i've always prefered characters which embody both darkness and light, even evil characters have to have reasons for what they do, and they must have good chracteristics to an extent, even if its just something as silly as a fondness for white fluffy cats. Purely evil characters are one dimensional and poorly written.

 

 

Also as for WoT Villains, bear in mind that most of them were corrupted due to their stupidity/jealousy/greed/hate. They were hardly the cream of the crop, and the darkside as a whole scheme against each other 10x more than against the light.

[Mulk]

Verin says in TGS that she believes that above all else the Dark One desires for his adherents to be selfish. Selfish people are almost invariably short sighted and greedy. In the AoL this didn't matter; the world had no experience with war or even lower scaled evil on a large scale, and so the Shadow had the initiative from the start and very rarely ever let go of it even amongst all of the internecine scheming. At the point in time that LTT did what he did with the Companions, the Light appears to have lost the War in all but name.

 

In another thread I stated I've wondered whether or not the taint was in a sense planned by the Pattern - that is, the Pattern conceded the taint so that it might win the war later. It's as likely that this was the Dark One's plan in reverse - that is, that he conceded the re-sealing in order to have a shot at warping the Dragon so badly that he could end the cycle entirely the next time around. Those who have read that far know how close to victory the DO is as things draw to toward the climax. It's actually a remarkably subtle plan, brought off by Ishamael and the Dark One by using the appetites of the Shadow followers and Forsaken against each other and against the Light, along with certain actions aimed at increasing despair and hopelessness.

 

Are the Forsaken dashing examples of badassery and haberdashery (or something?)? No. Not at all. But then, they aren't the real bad guys and they are just carrying out orders - orders that are aimed at maximizing chaos and despair (I honestly think Ishy and the DO are indifferent to their overall success as long as there is more chaos and disruption) whilst hopefully pushing themselves further up the pile toward Nae'blis. Ishamael is imo the only one who ever truly understood the Dark One. If the rest really knew what the Dark One intends, they might not go along with it.

 

edit to fix a typo

Edited September 10, 2012 by QuietAiel

[yoniy0]

Would you call the Bastard of Bolton a competent villain?

No, I'd call him a poor misguided soul. He's a bad man, yes, but he hardly is the Winter Nan promised us all this time ago.

 

As for JRRM's world - who are the villians? Do you mean the monsters on the other side of the wall?

The Others and their Wights, yes. And their God, most likely.