Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[yoniy0]

Question:  Do we know when Graendal was in the Tower and/or what she did there?

 

I was rereading and somewhere in aCoS Alviarin thinks on having met 3 of the Forsaken - Lanfear, Graendal and Mesaana.

Graendal's PoV (when she's talking about tracking Messi) mentions setting up a spy network in the WT. That was probably what she was doing and maybe also looking for angreal, etc. No direct proof though.

I didn't read that part for a time now, but didn't she also met with Ishamael? After he killed the former head of Ajah, didn't he make sure Alviarin wasn't herself party to the murder of that Amyrlin?

 

Does Lanfear use some sort of charm/ weave to make men, well, lose their wits around her? (I'm thinking when Rand, Hurin, and Loial meet 'Selene' in TGH.) Or is it just that she really IS that beautiful?

I don't think we have a complete proof that she doesn't, but neither do we have an indication she does. We've only seen her affect on young men, and believe me, she wouldn't need to use such trickery.

[Sharaman]

Question:  Do we know when Graendal was in the Tower and/or what she did there?

 

I was rereading and somewhere in aCoS Alviarin thinks on having met 3 of the Forsaken - Lanfear, Graendal and Mesaana.

Graendal's PoV (when she's talking about tracking Messi) mentions setting up a spy network in the WT. That was probably what she was doing and maybe also looking for angreal, etc. No direct proof though.

I didn't read that part for a time now, but didn't she also met with Ishamael? After he killed the former head of Ajah, didn't he make sure Alviarin wasn't herself party to the murder of that Amyrlin?

 

Yes and Ishamel made them all suffer a lot before they proved their "innocence". That was when Alvi became head of BA I think. That was a long time ago, before the other Chosen were freed from the Bore.

Belal also had a chat with Alvi at some stage.

 

 

[Crael123]

how old is sulin?

[deathgate]

We've only seen her affect on young men, and believe me, she wouldn't need to use such trickery.

 

I never thought Hurin was particularly young.

[Sharaman]

We've only seen her affect on young men, and believe me, she wouldn't need to use such trickery.

 

I never thought Hurin was particularly young.

 

Does Loial qualify as a young "man"?

Also how come she makes Min, Nyn and co. feel grubby and inferior?

 

[yoniy0]

We've only seen her affect on young men, and believe me, she wouldn't need to use such trickery.

I never thought Hurin was particularly young.

Does Loial qualify as a young "man"?

Also how come she makes Min, Nyn and co. feel grubby and inferior?

I'll admit, Hurin isn't young at all. But neither do we see him treat her any differently than he does other lords and ladies, I think. He's just subservient that way. Loyal IS young, and women do make him uncomfortable, I think. Does he treat Min differently? Did we see him make conversation with Egwene or Nynaeve on the way to the Eye?

And regarding the girls and their reactions, I'm reminded of when I was in high school and watched an episode of Bay Watch with a few of my classmates. The girls couldn't shut up about how the actresses aren't all that pretty, really (yeah, right).

[alligator]

I think Hurin is affected by her beauty as well-- he stares at her the same way Rand does, he blurts out secrets in front of her, he grins at her obsessively (chapter 16 of TGH)-- all things that I've heard flustered men do. :P Rand is what, around 19 at this point? And Loial is about the equivalent of that age, too? I think generally guys don't have that kind of tongue-tied reaction past 15.  ::) Hurin is a decent married Shienarian, as well, not exactly the type to ogle a woman.

 

Anyways... it seems like she has the kind of beauty that you only hear about in stories, but never see in real life. We know she wanted power, and who has more power over men than an astoundingly beautiful one?

 

Just some thoughts.

[Sharaman]

I think Hurin is affected by her beauty as well-- he stares at her the same way Rand does, he blurts out secrets in front of her, he grins at her obsessively (chapter 16 of TGH)-- all things that I've heard flustered men do. :P Rand is what, around 19 at this point? And Loial is about the equivalent of that age, too? I think generally guys don't have that kind of tongue-tied reaction past 15.  ::) Hurin is a decent married Shienarian, as well, not exactly the type to ogle a woman.

 

Anyways... it seems like she has the kind of beauty that you only hear about in stories, but never see in real life. We know she wanted power, and who has more power over men than an astoundingly beautiful one?

 

Just some thoughts.

 

As a Lanfear fan, you might enjoy reading these, if you haven't already

http://linuxmafia.com/waygate/tfoh.plot.contest-13.html

http://linuxmafia.com/waygate/tfoh.plot.contest-5.html

 

[thewalrus777]

Lanfear put a lot of women to shame in regards to looks. She can get any guy to do anything for her just by using her 'assets'. Rand had said he thought Morgase was beautiful until he met Lanfear face to face when she dropped her Selene disguise. She could manipulate any man with just her looks.

[mb]

Did Egwene visit Verin's room sometime after Egwene's return to White Tower or is that yet to come?

Were the rooms of Blacks searched after the executions or is that also yet to come?

 

[thewalrus777]

Did Egwene visit Verin's room sometime after Egwene's return to White Tower or is that yet to come?

Were the rooms of Blacks searched after the executions or is that also yet to come?

 

 

I don't think it's happened yet. Remember these events just took place with the cleansing of the BA from the Tower and the learning of Verin's secret.

[Sharaman]

Did Egwene visit Verin's room sometime after Egwene's return to White Tower or is that yet to come?

Were the rooms of Blacks searched after the executions or is that also yet to come?

 

She may not have had time - the whole purging BA in Salidar and purging BA in WT and being raised to the unified Amyrlin business has happened in about 24 hours. Certainly she hasn't had time to read many enciphered notebooks and to shift through possessions of 150-200-odd women.

[Coraxian]

Is it possible Lanfear, prior to making the bore, visited the Eelfinn and asked to be the most beautifull, the most powerfull and a way out?  And the Aelfinn to find out where she could find more power and finding the bore?

 

Sorry, but the site is a bit too massive to go and look whether that theory is already around.  Would explain why she was killed when entering that gate.

[Sharaman]

Is it possible Lanfear, prior to making the bore, visited the Eelfinn and asked to be the most beautifull, the most powerfull and a way out?  And the Aelfinn to find out where she could find more power and finding the bore?

 

Sorry, but the site is a bit too massive to go and look whether that theory is already around.  Would explain why she was killed when entering that gate.

The theory has been hotly debated. There is no evidence in the books to support it. There is some negative evidence in that RJ said that the Finn could not provide a permanent boost in OP, etc.

 

[rubbernilly]

Don't listen to Sharaman, coraxian. There is plenty of evidence, at least enough to form informed speculations.

 

For discussions of this very thing, try these two threads:

 

Lanfear and Moiraine Switched Bodies

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,52633.0.html

(i don't buy this body-switch theory, but the relevant discussion of your idea starts on the bottom of page 4)

 

Moiraine and the Tower of Ghenjei

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,52673.0.html

(this has more debate of the subject, starting at the bottom of page 5, but the previous thread has the longer write up of my take on the theory--at the bottom of page 4)

[mb]

Is it possible Lanfear, prior to making the bore, visited the Eelfinn and asked to be the most beautifull, the most powerfull and a way out?  And the Aelfinn to find out where she could find more power and finding the bore?

The Fires of Heaven scene I take is the only time Lanfear went through the Eelfinn door; since I take that a person could go through either door only once in the person's lifetime.  If she visited the Eelfinn any prior time before the scene, it would more likely have been through the Tower.

The books do not tell whether Lanfear ever went through the Aelfinn door.

 

[Ashaman DeRouge]

Have we ever heard any of the other forsaken talking about the finns or the tower of Ghenjei?

[bronnt]

Is it possible Lanfear, prior to making the bore, visited the Eelfinn and asked to be the most beautifull, the most powerfull and a way out?  And the Aelfinn to find out where she could find more power and finding the bore?

 

Sorry, but the site is a bit too massive to go and look whether that theory is already around.  Would explain why she was killed when entering that gate.

The theory has been hotly debated. There is no evidence in the books to support it. There is some negative evidence in that RJ said that the Finn could not provide a permanent boost in OP, etc.

 

There's never been any evidence for this theory, but it keeps popping up.  I honestly don't know where people get this idea from the books.  It's clear the Finns aren't like our concept of Genies, with magical abilities to grant wishes.  What you see from Mat isn't that Aes Sedai leave him alone, even though it's what he asks for.  Instead, he gets a ter'angreal that protects him from direct contact with the OP.  Instead of getting the holes in his memory plugged, he gets a slew of disjointed memories from people who previous visited the Finns.

 

There's no evidence that the Finns can do anything that's related to the OP, much less powerboost anyone.  There's also no evidence that she's had previous contact with the Finns.  There's clear limitations based on RJ quotes and the evidence in the book.

 

So where is this theory coming from?  Lanfear was simply the strongest female channeler in a era of tons of people who could use the OP.  No one is suggesting that LTT, Ishamael, or Rand was supplemented, so I don't know why they keep seizing on Lanfear.  The only thing I've seen is a clearly misinterpreted quote from WH.

[Anoxanmore]

Lanfear was simply the strongest female channeler in a era of tons of people who could use the OP.  No one is suggesting that LTT, Ishamael, or Rand was supplemented, so I don't know why they keep seizing on Lanfear. 

People don't want to admit this, which is why it is hard to get around that.

[Coraxian]

Well, since Cyndane isn't as powerfull as she used to be when she was Lanfear is something that made me think that.  And since Aran'gar showed up, you can assume that the ability to channel is tied to the soul and not the body.

 

So appart from the DO limiting her (maybe as a punishment inspired by her treatment of Asmodean), you can also speculate that being reborn like this shewas just reset at her original strength.

 

The fact that she was searching for a new, bigger source of power when she made the bore indicates that she was activly seeking power.  Power and glory are her biggest drives.

 

Add to this the fact that the portals were transported just after the breaking (which makes me assume they were made during or before the age of legends)gives the possibility for her to have visited them and proves that at least some Aes Sedai and their Aiel knew about them.

 

The fact that her beauty is described the way it is also gives me the feeling it points in this direction.

 

You are correct, no evidence, but at least there's a motive and that spurred the idea.

But if RJ said they couldn't powerboost, I guess that theory is shot down.  But you asked for the reasoning and that was it.

[bronnt]

Well, since Cyndane isn't as powerfull as she used to be when she was Lanfear is something that made me think that.  And since Aran'gar showed up, you can assume that the ability to channel is tied to the soul and not the body.

 

So appart from the DO limiting her (maybe as a punishment inspired by her treatment of Asmodean), you can also speculate that being reborn like this shewas just reset at her original strength.

 

Instead of this, you can assume it's tied to the one known mechanic which causes someone to be reduced in strength.  That is, she was stilled, and Healed by a woman.  It's debatable as to whether being stilled carries through the soul transmigration, but it fits the available data.  She's still strong, but not quite as strong as she was previously.

 

We can suspect she was stilled because we know that Moiraine wasn't killed going through the doorway, but her link the Lan was cut.  She'd gone through a doorway previously without cutting her link to Lan, and we know that stilling breaks it.  Both were channeling when going through the doorway and it blew up, and it seems likely to have stilled both.  Lanfear speaks to having been held by the Finns, and if she could have channeled to prevent it, she probably would have.  There's no evidence that the Finns have any power to stop people from channeling, unless they've got a little stockpile of those ter'angreal that they gave to Mat.

 

Moghedien presumably learned the weave for Healing stilled by virtue of having been linked to Nynaeve when she Healed Logain.  So she Heals Lanfear (who is probably inhabating Cabriana Mecandes' body), and Lanfear's strength is reduced as a result.

 

The only hole in this theory is whether being stilled would carried across a soul transmigration, and there's only some inconslusive quotes from RJ concerning it.

 

The PowerBoost theory has many more holes that aren't explained, while creating new mechanics to explain how it works.

 

1)  Lanfear would have to have visited Finnland before, and presumably not through that doorway.  There's no evidence of this at all.

2)  The Finns have to be able not only to alter a person's appearance, but they have to be able to alter their strength in the OP, and to also be able to stop them from channeling (since clearly they held her after she and Moiraine went through the doorway, and this theory involves her NOT being stilled).  There's no evidence that they can do any of those three things.

3)  The so-called "strength reset" is another invented mechanic.  If you assume this "Powerboost" happened, why would you assume that she'd somehow not carry this new strength into a new body?  Strength in OP is tied to the soul, as we've said, not the body.

 

You just have to invent too much...and the entire basis for this theory is that she's thirsty for power?  You could say the same of all the Forsaken, so why the fixation on Lanfear?

[Anoxanmore]

Instead of this, you can assume it's tied to the one known mechanic which causes someone to be reduced in strength.  That is, she was stilled, and Healed by a woman.  It's debatable as to whether being stilled carries through the soul transmigration, but it fits the available data.  She's still strong, but not quite as strong as she was previously.

 

We can suspect she was stilled because we know that Moiraine wasn't killed going through the doorway, but her link the Lan was cut.  She'd gone through a doorway previously without cutting her link to Lan, and we know that stilling breaks it.  Both were channeling when going through the doorway and it blew up, and it seems likely to have stilled both.  Lanfear speaks to having been held by the Finns, and if she could have channeled to prevent it, she probably would have.  There's no evidence that the Finns have any power to stop people from channeling, unless they've got a little stockpile of those ter'angreal that they gave to Mat.

 

Moghedien presumably learned the weave for Healing stilled by virtue of having been linked to Nynaeve when she Healed Logain.  So she Heals Lanfear (who is probably inhabating Cabriana Mecandes' body), and Lanfear's strength is reduced as a result.

 

I'd also like to point out that even after healing Cyndane is still stronger than Graendel, which proves another point she was the second strongest Forsaken next to Ishamael.

[bronnt]

I'd also like to point out that even after healing Cyndane is still stronger than Graendel, which proves another point she was the second strongest Forsaken next to Ishamael.

 

Well, depending on how you interpret relative male/female strength levels, but that's a different debate entirely, and it's been going on for a long time.  The truth is that there isn't a resolution to it since RJ says the Forsaken themselves aren't always reliable for judging relative strengths.  See: Rah'vin.

[thewalrus777]

I'd also like to point out that even after healing Cyndane is still stronger than Graendel, which proves another point she was the second strongest Forsaken next to Ishamael.

 

Well, depending on how you interpret relative male/female strength levels, but that's a different debate entirely, and it's been going on for a long time.  The truth is that there isn't a resolution to it since RJ says the Forsaken themselves aren't always reliable for judging relative strengths.  See: Rah'vin.

 

This is true, considering Rahvin was a self-centered ass. He valued himself over all the others. He deemed his political ability to be above all others. And we know for a fact the Chosen really detest one another. So some of the things we hear from them can only be taken with a grain of salt.

[alligator]

...and the entire basis for this theory is that she's thirsty for power?  You could say the same of all the Forsaken, so why the fixation on Lanfear?

 

Because Lanfear is the one Forsaken that we really know the personality and background of. Well, relatively, at least. We know that she has always been obsessed with power. It's a bit sexist, but I guess men are almost expected to want to have absolute power, so from a woman it's... weirder. More note-worthy.

 

Anyways, I just think that Lanfear has some sort of weave or charm that makes her THE MOST ASTOUNDINGLY GORGEOUS AND FANTASTICALLY STUNNING WOMAN EVER, or distorts how people see her-- almost like the Mask of Mirrors. Clearly she was always beautiful, but her current level of beauty doesn't seem naturally possible.  ::)