Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[csnyder]

What if the Wheel uses the Dark One as a construct to destroy too much development - it must choose Dark ta'veren as well for certain purposes...

[Maleshub]

Who are the 3 dead Chosen that Shadar Haran blames Graendal for?

 

Mesaana, Ara'angar, & ______

[Finnssss22]

Who are the 3 dead Chosen that Shadar Haran blames Graendal for?

 

Mesaana, Ara'angar, & ______

 

Run through them....

Aginor--->Rand

Balthamel--->Greenman

Ishamael--->Rand

Be'lal--->Moiraine

Lanfear--->Moiraine

Rahvin--->Rand

Sammael--->Rand/Mashadar

Osan'gar---> Elza Penfell

Aran'gar--->Graendal

Semirhage--->Rand

Mesaana--->Graendal/Egwene

 

That leaves only one other....Asmodean.

 

You can check out Graendal's entry in the ToM glossary for confirmation ;)

[yoniy0]

And if this is considered too inappropriate, I apologize, but did they, well, "go at it" after?

No, I don't think so. At the beginning of that scene, Talanvor kneels down by her bed, and she heard him getting close. We have enough information about their positions during the discussion to eliminate that kind of activity There's simply not enough time.

There, that's the best I can do to keep our PG13 rule and address your question at the same time.

 

Who are the 3 dead Chosen that Shadar Haran blames Graendal for?

 

Mesaana, Ara'angar, & ______

Asmodean.

[Maleshub]

Thanks for the responses. And so, I finally know who killed Asmodean.

[ArthurOysgelt]

I read the interview in which Robert Jordan explained why the Forsaken were ineffective in the battle at Shadar Logoth, and I find that it makes sense. However, why are all of the Shadow's minions and efforts so pathetically useless?

 

The Dark One wants chaos - okay, why not order his minions to become serial killers who kill at random? That should be guaranteed to cause more chaos than what they've been doing so far, and, in my opinion, it would certainly be more threatening to people who walk in the Light than the stupid schemes that have been going on so far. Granted, Graendal and Demandred had some significant successes, and I guess Mesaana and Aran'gar were doing a good job breaking the White Tower, but still...

 

Why hadn't the Forsaken balefired Perrin long ago? Seriously, how difficult could it be for Graendal, Lanfear, Moghedien, or even Moridin using the True Power to create a gateway into a hill overlooking Perrin's encampment in any of books 8-13, and simply balefire his tent? Moridin and Lanfear know how to track the ta'averen, so it's not like it's hard to find him.

 

Why haven't the Forsaken simply been assigned to gateway into random cities and rain chaos and destruction for a few minutes, and then jump out? Who could stop those kinds of hit-and-run attacks, even with wards?

 

It just seems like the Shadow has this enormous network that can be called upon at any time by the Forsaken to do specific tasks, and the Forsaken, particularly Moridin, simply sit around and scheme.

 

What have Lanfear and Moghedien been doing for the past 6 books?

[Luckers]

Who are the 3 dead Chosen that Shadar Haran blames Graendal for?

 

Mesaana, Ara'angar, & ______

 

Run through them....

Aginor--->Rand

Balthamel--->Greenman

Ishamael--->Rand

Be'lal--->Moiraine

Lanfear--->Moiraine

Rahvin--->Rand

Sammael--->Rand/Mashadar

Osan'gar---> Elza Penfell

Aran'gar--->Graendal

Semirhage--->Rand

Mesaana--->Graendal/Egwene

 

That leaves only one other....Asmodean.

 

You can check out Graendal's entry in the ToM glossary for confirmation ;)

 

Technically Aginor killed himself by drawing too much trying to take control of the Eye from Rand, and Lanfear was killed by the Finns--or so they claim.

[Finnssss22]

Technically Aginor killed himself by drawing too much trying to take control of the Eye from Rand, and Lanfear was killed by the Finns--or so they claim.

 

Fair enough on Aggy but Moiraine killed Lanfear regardless of whether she pulled the actual trigger.

If you throw someone into a cage full of hungry Lions, do you blame the Lions for their death?

[mb]

You don't have to die to stop being ta'veren, you just have to have done whatever it was the Wheel needed you to do, so it can stop weaving everybody else's threads around yours.

Can you provide a quote from either author and/or from the books that backs this up?

 

Edit::

I guess the Wheel/Pattern would always give tasks to a taveren; until the taveren dies.

Edited March 31, 2012 by mb

[Maleshub]

Technically Aginor killed himself by drawing too much trying to take control of the Eye from Rand, and Lanfear was killed by the Finns--or so they claim.

 

I wondered about Lanfear and the Finns killing her. I think they most likely did kill her because she was reincarnated in another body. If she wasn't dead; then the DO - Shadar Haran killed her after taking her out of the Finns realm.

[Finnssss22]

Technically Aginor killed himself by drawing too much trying to take control of the Eye from Rand, and Lanfear was killed by the Finns--or so they claim.

 

I wondered about Lanfear and the Finns killing her. I think they most likely did kill her because she was reincarnated in another body. If she wasn't dead; then the DO - Shadar Haran killed her after taking her out of the Finns realm.

 

I think you had it right in the first place, pretty sure she was already dead by the time the "man" came there looking for her.

The "man" most likely being Moridin and not Isam/Luc as some believe. I highly doubt that Isam/Luc has the power to destroy the Doorway.

[Sharaman]

Technically Aginor killed himself by drawing too much trying to take control of the Eye from Rand, and Lanfear was killed by the Finns--or so they claim.

 

I wondered about Lanfear and the Finns killing her. I think they most likely did kill her because she was reincarnated in another body. If she wasn't dead; then the DO - Shadar Haran killed her after taking her out of the Finns realm.

 

What little we know about the Finns also suggests that, like the faerie they're based on, (and like AS), they don't directly lie. They keep the letter of their bargains.. So, if they said to Moiraine that they'd killed Lanfear, they did so.

[Luckers]

Even so, something seemed off about it.

[Azrayne]

Isn't it stated somewhere that they killed her accidently by draining her ability to channel too fast?

[Terez]

The Eelfinn told Moiraine that, but she thinks they were lying.

[Luckers]

Isn't it stated somewhere that they killed her accidently by draining her ability to channel too fast?

 

Yeah it is, what we're saying is that the way it was stated sounded wierd, like something more happened that they didn't mention.

[Maleshub]

Someone killed her; because the reincarnation in a new body with a new name is the evidence. Would the DO order Moridin or Shadar Haran to kill her as punishment? Or did she perhaps die during the rescue attempt and was reincarnated as a result?

Edited March 31, 2012 by Theodril

[Guest PiotrekS]

What exactly is the Pattern?

[yoniy0]

What exactly is the Pattern?

Ah, good. Finally, a question we can give a clear, unconditional answer to. I was starting to think everyone forgot the premise of this thread.

[Guest PiotrekS]

What exactly is the Pattern?

Ah, good. Finally, a question we can give a clear, unconditional answer to. I was starting to think everyone forgot the premise of this thread.

 

I have unlimited faith in the abilities of the Masters of WOT lore, you guys are better than the Aelfinn

 

I am aware that answering the question with a short, simple and clear answer is quite a challenge...

[Terez]

What exactly is the Pattern?

A metaphor for the fabric of existence. It's a popular metaphor among physicists, of whom RJ was one.

[Guest PiotrekS]

What exactly is the Pattern?

A metaphor for the fabric of existence. It's a popular metaphor among physicists, of whom RJ was one.

 

Here you go Thanks Terez!

 

If it is the metaphor, then how can you "rip a hold in it" while Traveling with the True Power etc.? I guess you could say you just rip a hole in the matter and it is just metaphor again, Ishy rips a hold in matter and walks through...But if so, is his act of Travelling, Traveling space etc. a part of the Pattern or not?

 

I also think that the Pattern is simply the way of saying that the events form a coherent, large-scale whole and it is a metaphor and doesn't have any other reality to it. So the ideas about sealing the Bore with the Pattern or the Pattern being the DO's prison seem unlikely to be true to me.

[Terez]

What exactly is the Pattern?

A metaphor for the fabric of existence. It's a popular metaphor among physicists, of whom RJ was one.

 

Here you go Thanks Terez!

 

If it is the metaphor, then how can you "rip a hold in it" while Traveling with the True Power etc.? I guess you could say you just rip a hole in the matter and it is just metaphor again, Ishy rips a hold in matter and walks through...But if so, is his act of Travelling, Traveling space etc. a part of the Pattern or not?

 

Yeah, you rip a hole in the fabric of existence, essentially. He says he steps outside the Pattern, presumably meaning outside existence as we know it, but (obviously) not outside existence entirely. He does it using the True Power, which destroys the Pattern, and this probably contributes to the state of the Pattern at present (along with balefire). The metaphor continues:

 

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it - as well as the plan for the Great Pattern - and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born ta'veren, must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.

With one finger, Verin drew a number of parallel lines across the area she had cleared, lines clear in dust atop the old beeswax. "Let these represent worlds that might exist if different choices had been made, if major turning points in the Pattern had gone another way."

 

"The worlds reached by the Portal Stones," Egwene said, to show she had listened to Verin's lectures on the journey from Toman Head. What could this possibly have to do with whether or not she was a Dreamer?

 

"Very good. But the Pattern may be even more complex than that, child. The Wheel weaves our lives to make the Pattern of an Age, but the Ages themselves are woven into the Age Lace, the Great Pattern. Who can know if this is even the tenth part of the weaving, though? Some in the Age of Legends apparently believe that there were still other worlds – even harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones, if that can be believed – lying like this." She drew more lines, cross-hatching the first set. For a moment she stared at them. "The warp and the woof of the weave. Perhaps the Wheel of Time weaves a still greater Pattern from worlds." Straightening, she dusted her hands. "Well, that is neither here nor there. In all of these worlds, whatever their other variations, a few things are constant. One is that the Dark One is imprisoned in all of them."

 

In spite of herself, Egwene stepped closer to peer at the lines Verin had drawn. "In all of them? How can that be? Are you saying there is a Father of Lies for each world?" The thought of so many Dark Ones made her shiver.

 

"No, child. There is one Creator, who exists everywhere at once for all of these worlds. In the same way, there is only one Dark One, who also exists in all of these worlds at once. If he is freed from the prison the Creator made in one world, he is freed on all. So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned on all."

 

"That does not seem to make sense," Egwene protested.

 

"Paradox, child. The Dark One is the embodiment of paradox and chaos, the destroyer of reason and logic, the breaker of balance, the unmaker of order."

 

I also think that the Pattern is simply the way of saying that the events form a coherent, large-scale whole and it is a metaphor and doesn't have any other reality to it. So the ideas about sealing the Bore with the Pattern or the Pattern being the DO's prison seem unlikely to be true to me.

Well, it does have reality to it in the sense that the Mirrors of the Wheel help to weave particular circumstances that will create an overall Age Shape, what RJ sometimes referred to as a tapestry. He said that the patterns of two different versions of the same Age would look the same from a distance, but that up close many small details would be different.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Terez

[Thornan]

How can there be a One Power when there are apparently more than one? (I'm referring to the True Power here). I can't say why, but this has been nagging at me lately.

[Azrayne]

How can there be a One Power when there are apparently more than one? (I'm referring to the True Power here). I can't say why, but this has been nagging at me lately.

 

it's the 'one power' that drives creation. The true power stems from a source outside of creation (aka The Dark One).

 

Or it's just a name.