Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[brolie]

yeah but it has mat's eye on the balancing scales which isn't until WAY later... and most of the other viewings she has, are all pretty straight forward (when you know how the books go). Maybe RJ had more of a plan for Thom rather than a tag along character (which is what he seems to become after Whitebridge) but I figured that a lot of foreshadowing was allowed in that scene because he already knew what was going to happen. I just figured I missed something about the juggling fire and white tower. and i guess by agreeing to marry moiraine, the white tower could symbolize his giving in to aes sedai in a way. and the juggling fire might be more symbolic than straight forward.. i dunno :( now i'm more confused....

[Ludo]

Since all (or the majority of?) souls get reborn Turning after Turning*, why doesn't Min see these future lives in everyone she Views? Why just Birgitte? She doesn't even see Rand's future lives! Or if she does, she hasn't mentioned it..

 

 

*and if some don't, what happens to those that don't? Does the DO eat them?

It may be because Birgitte is bound to the Horn. I don't remember anything saying that the Dragon was bound to the Horn, so that may be why she doesn't have similar for Rand.

[Hybrid]

Since all (or the majority of?) souls get reborn Turning after Turning*, why doesn't Min see these future lives in everyone she Views? Why just Birgitte? She doesn't even see Rand's future lives! Or if she does, she hasn't mentioned it..

 

 

*and if some don't, what happens to those that don't? Does the DO eat them?

 

 

I always thought that it was possibly due to her being pulled out in between starting a new life. She's in her "in between" stage/form and so all her future lives are showing up, because as Birgitte, in this form, has all of those lives in front of her, but when she begins a new life, that life only has the one future. Something along those lines.

 

That was always my interpretation as well.

 

Birgitte remembering all of her past lives supports this, IMO.

[jahnfriederik]

Why has Rand effectively ignored the Black Tower for ... five books now? Four? I can't remember

[Superhal]

Why has Rand effectively ignored the Black Tower for ... five books now? Four? I can't remember

 

In his words, he's too busy. Around book 4 or so, he realized that he couldn't do everything himself and he had to rely on other people to help him. The first step was sending Perrin to take care of the Two Rivers, of which he hasn't been back since book 1.

 

My impression is that he has a lot of knowledge of events based on his study of the prophecies in book 4 (and he had Asmodean's help in interpreting them,) so he's prioritized events and only sees to the most important himself.

[Luckers]

Apologies if this has already been asked.

 

Doing my first reread and they just reached Baerlon. Min says her viewing on "the gleeman" is a man, not him, who juggles fire and the white tower. I could make sense out of everyone else except this. What are these for Thom?

 

My theory is this refers to a role Thom will play in sorting out a place in the world for men who can channel--he has the motivation, his debt to his nephew. And with his skills in the Game of Houses he'd be perfect for this.

[brolie]

luckers- that does make sense. but he spends most of the other books with mat though :(

 

 

 

and just a side question- a page was torn out of my book, either my 3 yr old or 4 yr old did it haha -- but the page that was torn out is right when mat thom and rand get on bayle's boat. do rand and mat give him the coins moiraine gave them? i vaguely remember something about that but i haven't read tEotW in so long.

[Clayden69]

luckers- that does make sense. but he spends most of the other books with mat though :(

 

 

 

and just a side question- a page was torn out of my book, either my 3 yr old or 4 yr old did it haha -- but the page that was torn out is right when mat thom and rand get on bayle's boat. do rand and mat give him the coins moiraine gave them? i vaguely remember something about that but i haven't read tEotW in so long.

 

 

they do give him the coins

[yoniy0]

Who says Lan and the baby is a mistake? Might very well be a vision of post TG with Malkeri being remade under the rule of Lan and Nynaeve, they would need heirs after all :P

No, it wasn't my intention to imply that. Only that I'm as befuddled at that Viewing, for the same reason.

[Luckers]

luckers- that does make sense. but he spends most of the other books with mat though .

 

Yeah but he has moiraine now, who promised to reveal the sisters responsible for his nephew. I could see them teaming up to help get the men on equal footing. Especially of the black tower in andor gets destroyed and elaidas palace becomes the new black tower.

[Superhal]

Did Lanfear die in the ToG? Or was she rescued? I thought Moiraine witnessed her death.

[jahnfriederik]

Did Lanfear die in the ToG? Or was she rescued? I thought Moiraine witnessed her death.

Cyndane? The DO brings her back.

[Glip]

Did Lanfear die in the ToG? Or was she rescued? I thought Moiraine witnessed her death.

 

IIRC Moiraine said the Finns claimed they drained Lanfear too quickly and she died. Afterwards 'a man' came and said he was looking for someone other than Moiraine.

No certain way to tell right now what actually happened, the Finns could easily have lied to Moiraine.

[Superhal]

Did Lanfear die in the ToG? Or was she rescued? I thought Moiraine witnessed her death.

Cyndane? The DO brings her back.

 

Yeah that's what I thought. For the DO to do a soul transmigration, there has to be a non-balefire death. A lot of people think she was rescued and then body-switched, but then why rescue her if you are going to kill her anyway? Unless the man Moirane saw went in there to kill Lanfear so the DO could make a new body for her.

[herid]

Apologies if this has already been asked.

 

Doing my first reread and they just reached Baerlon. Min says her viewing on "the gleeman" is a man, not him, who juggles fire and the white tower. I could make sense out of everyone else except this. What are these for Thom?

 

My theory is this refers to a role Thom will play in sorting out a place in the world for men who can channel--he has the motivation, his debt to his nephew. And with his skills in the Game of Houses he'd be perfect for this.

I don't understand the connection. How does this relate to the viewing that Min had? It was about a man other than Thom juggling fire and the White Tower.

Also, Thom wants revenge on the Aes Sedai who gentled his nephew. He might get that although I highly doubt this will be addressed in aMoL with so much other stuff which needs to be taken care of. In any case, that's quite different from organizing male channelers. I don't see why his services would be in any way required there. Rand already took care of this. Taim and his cronies would have to be cleared out of BT of course but I don't see Thom and his Game of the Houses skills playing any role in that.

 

Especially of the black tower in andor gets destroyed and elaidas palace becomes the new black tower.

Now, that's a cool idea. This might very well happen. The WT and BT really ought to unify post TG as the Aes Sedai were in AoL and I found it strange that they didn't in Avi's visions especially considering RJs statements that the idea of men and women working together is on of the main themes of the series.

Edited July 13, 2011 by herid

[Hybrid]

Especially of the black tower in andor gets destroyed and elaidas palace becomes the new black tower.

 

Interesting. I'd never thought of that, but it feels natural.

[yoniy0]

herid, it's simple. Owyn made Thom unable to resist helping a channeling man deal with AS. All Ashaman are now in need, because having their own place doesn't make AS regard them as equals (like it was in the AoL). If, on the way, Thom can take revenge on those Reds (who are bound to be vocal critics of any normalization agreement with the Ashaman), all the better.

[herid]

herid, it's simple. Owyn made Thom unable to resist helping a channeling man deal with AS. All Ashaman are now in need, because having their own place doesn't make AS regard them as equals (like it was in the AoL). If, on the way, Thom can take revenge on those Reds (who are bound to be vocal critics of any normalization agreement with the Ashaman), all the better.

how does any of this relate to the vision Min had? She saw a man (not Thom) juggling fire and the White Tower. What is this supposed to represent? I fail to see any connection between this vision and Thom getting revenge on the reds who gentled Owyn or him helping the Asha'man.

[RyanL24]

herid, it's simple. Owyn made Thom unable to resist helping a channeling man deal with AS. All Ashaman are now in need, because having their own place doesn't make AS regard them as equals (like it was in the AoL). If, on the way, Thom can take revenge on those Reds (who are bound to be vocal critics of any normalization agreement with the Ashaman), all the better.

how does any of this relate to the vision Min had? She saw a man (not Thom) juggling fire and the White Tower. What is this supposed to represent? I fail to see any connection between this vision and Thom getting revenge on the reds who gentled Owyn or him helping the Asha'man.

 

The man in the vision was a man who could channel. He needs help, the WT doesn't like men who can channel. Thom is going to help him by working to unite male and female channelers. The Reds who gentled his nephew will oppose this unification, and need to be dealt with in some way. This may be how he will get revenge.

Edited July 13, 2011 by RyanL24

[Luckers]

I don't understand the connection. How does this relate to the viewing that Min had? It was about a man other than Thom juggling fire and the White Tower.

 

The man juggling fire represents men who can channel. Post-Taint, there will need to be a balance of power developed. This vision perfectly describes such a thing--Thom, the Grey Fox, working on behalf of men who juggle fire [men who are not himself] to ensure they have a place in the world--and any such act would intrinsically involve him dealing with the White Tower, and developing a balance of power with them.

 

So in short. Man Juggling Fire = Men Who Can Channel. Tower = White Towers opposition. This Being About Thom, But Thom Being Neither Of These Things = Thom being a mediator who stands between the two groups. He has the motivation--he failed Oweyn--and the skill. Through Moiraine he has the intelligence on the Tower, and she has shown her willingness to right wrongs done by the Tower towards men who can channel.

 

 

Also, Thom wants revenge on the Aes Sedai who gentled his nephew. He might get that although I highly doubt this will be addressed in aMoL with so much other stuff which needs to be taken care of. In any case, that's quite different from organizing male channelers. I don't see why his services would be in any way required there. Rand already took care of this. Taim and his cronies would have to be cleared out of BT of course but I don't see Thom and his Game of the Houses skills playing any role in that.

 

I think ultimately Thom will take the higher path--Moiraine's entire purpose in that meeting was to prove to him that Aes Sedai can be better than that. He will answer his debt to his nephew not by taking revenge, but by helping others like him. Moiraine will provide the other side, by helping him make Aes Sedai be better than what they were.

 

Luckers, on 13 July 2011 - 07:16 AM, said:

 

Especially of the black tower in andor gets destroyed and elaidas palace becomes the new black tower.

 

 

 

Interesting. I'd never thought of that, but it feels natural.

 

 

Especially when you consider the upcoming confrontation between Pevara and Taim, and the whole 'Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire' thing

[herid]

I don't understand the connection. How does this relate to the viewing that Min had? It was about a man other than Thom juggling fire and the White Tower.

 

The man juggling fire represents men who can channel. Post-Taint, there will need to be a balance of power developed. This vision perfectly describes such a thing--Thom, the Grey Fox, working on behalf of men who juggle fire [men who are not himself] to ensure they have a place in the world--and any such act would intrinsically involve him dealing with the White Tower, and developing a balance of power with them.

 

So in short. Man Juggling Fire = Men Who Can Channel. Tower = White Towers opposition. This Being About Thom, But Thom Being Neither Of These Things = Thom being a mediator who stands between the two groups. He has the motivation--he failed Oweyn--and the skill. Through Moiraine he has the intelligence on the Tower, and she has shown her willingness to right wrongs done by the Tower towards men who can channel.

 

 

Also, Thom wants revenge on the Aes Sedai who gentled his nephew. He might get that although I highly doubt this will be addressed in aMoL with so much other stuff which needs to be taken care of. In any case, that's quite different from organizing male channelers. I don't see why his services would be in any way required there. Rand already took care of this. Taim and his cronies would have to be cleared out of BT of course but I don't see Thom and his Game of the Houses skills playing any role in that.

 

I think ultimately Thom will take the higher path--Moiraine's entire purpose in that meeting was to prove to him that Aes Sedai can be better than that. He will answer his debt to his nephew not by taking revenge, but by helping others like him. Moiraine will provide the other side, by helping him make Aes Sedai be better than what they were.

 

 

ok, got you. Thanks for the explanation. It's an interesting idea. Somehow I don't think that's it as I have a feeling that the man jugging fire in that vision represents a real person and is not a metaphor for male channelrs. But you could be right, we'll see.

[Din]

I tend to think the 'man juggling fire' refers to Mat although, admittedly, Min could have recognised him.

The White Tower is obviously a reference to Thom's relationship with Moiraine.

 

As far as Transmigration is concerned; the Dark One has to be waiting to catch a soul as it traverses from the living world to wherever souls wait to be reborn. When Balefire is used, the soul migrates before the Dark One can know to be there waiting. Since he is constrained by temporal causality (in the normal sense) he is perforce unable to intervene with souls of Balefired people. (So it's the paradoxical effect of Balefire that makes it impossible rather than some peculiar attribute of the weave itself as opposed to other weaves)

[Superhal]

Why is the expression "black eyed Aiel?"

[Finnssss22]

Why is the expression "black eyed Aiel?"

 

Because all people usually saw of the Aiel previously, was their eyes above their veils and they were thought to only be murderous savages.

[Suttree]

How early did signs of LTT's taint induced memories start seeping into Rand?

Edited July 16, 2011 by Suttree