Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Feral]

Didn't notice those other things, just the name. Very well done to all those who caught it!

[coolpool]

right i have only ever read the books through once so soz if this is answered in the books or on this board already..

 

when mesaan gets punished by SH, i have noticed that a lot of people say she got raped..?? now i may just be remebering wrong but i didn't get those indications when i read that scene.. i thought she was just getting a beating and some mental torchure only SH can do... so my question is how do you lot know she was abused this way??

Edited May 3, 2011 by Bookworm101

[Durinax]

right i have only ever read the books through once so soz if this is answered in the books or on this board already..

 

when mesaan gets punished by SH, i have noticed that a lot of people say she got raped..?? now i may just be remebering wrong but i didn't get those indications when i read that scene.. i thought she was just getting a beating and some mental torchure only SH can do... so my question is how do you lot know she was abused this way??

SH was taking off his clothes, I cant remember if he removes her clothes before end scene

[coolpool]

right i have only ever read the books through once so soz if this is answered in the books or on this board already..

 

when mesaan gets punished by SH, i have noticed that a lot of people say she got raped..?? now i may just be remebering wrong but i didn't get those indications when i read that scene.. i thought she was just getting a beating and some mental torchure only SH can do... so my question is how do you lot know she was abused this way??

SH was taking off his clothes, I cant remember if he removes her clothes before end scene

 

OMG really!! uuuugggh.. i thought it was just said in an interview or something... thats one creepy image..

 

thanks for answering the question though... i must have rushed though that section when i was reading..

[LemonPastie]

Also in regards to Paitr, he was hung as a darkfriend too.

[Terez]

Anyway, I think that David Selig is correct about both things he said. And btw it took me several re-reads before I connected Paitr from TEotW and Paitr from LoC

Good one. Never did catch that myself. Since you already went through the motions, do you mind telling me what convinced you that they were the same person?

Major blow to your geek cred, dude.

[yoniy0]

Major blow to your geek cred, dude.

Don't look at me I'm HIDEOUS!

[herid]

Does Egwene know how to shield her dreams? She never seems to do so even late in the series and neither do Nynaeve and Elayne. the Wise Ones don't shield their dreams either. Surely Moiraine could have easily taught Egwene how to shield dreams before her disappearance at the end of FoH. And the other Aes Sedai could have done it after Egwene became Amyrlin. By what Moiraine said shielding dreams is a standard practice among Aes Sedai.

[Terez]

I got the impression that it interferes with Dreamwalking somehow.

[herid]

I got the impression that it interferes with Dreamwalking somehow.

I've thought of that but Nynaeve and especially Elayne don't do that much of dreamwalking and they never seem to shield their dreams either. At least Egwene can speak into their dreams any time she needs to.

[David Selig]

Lanfear mentioned to Rand "I have examined the Aielwomen’s dreams. These so-called Wise Ones. They do not know how to shield themselves very well.". So it seems that they use some kind of shielding, but it's not really effective, if we are to believe Lanfear. Maybe that's intentional to allow them to Dreamwalk.

[mb]

The comment does not tell whether it was all Wise Ones or just the Dreamwalking ones.

[herid]

Lanfear mentioned to Rand "I have examined the Aielwomen’s dreams. These so-called Wise Ones. They do not know how to shield themselves very well.". So it seems that they use some kind of shielding, but it's not really effective, if we are to believe Lanfear. Maybe that's intentional to allow them to Dreamwalk.

Good catch. Although, by how Egwene describes the Wise Ones dreams later it sounds like they don't shield their dreams at all. and yes, it's natural to assume that shielding her dreams could interfere with her ability to dreamwalk. The only somewhat strange thing about it is that neither Nynaeve nor Elayne ever seem to do it either and might not even know how. Possibly, they didn't have time to learn. The Aes Sedai in Salidar might not have been willing to teach them until they were properly raised. But it's still strange though as Egewene could surely order somebody (say, Siuan) to teach them. and they themselves could order Merilille and co to teach them in Ebou Dar or in Caemlyn once they asserted their authority with that group.

[David Selig]

Maybe Elayne and Nynaeve don't shield their dreams to allow Egwene a way to contact them easily with urgent messages.

 

Though given that Moghedien, who has a reputation of a master of using TAR and dreams, is really mad at them, that would be reckless even by WoT's standards. ;)

[herid]

Maybe Elayne and Nynaeve don't shield their dreams to allow Egwene a way to contact them easily with urgent messages.

 

Though given that Moghedien, who has a reputation of a master of using TAR and dreams, is really mad at them, that would be reckless even by WoT's standards. ;)

Exactly. I rather suspect that they never learned how to do it. Their study in the White Tower was quite abbreviated and there are a number of things they never learned. And they showed on some occasions (like with not asking Moggy about Traveling) that they could miss asking to be taught even some very useful things.

[herid]

In FoH Siuan regrets that she can't use the anti-sweating trick since being stilled.

 

Siuan told herself that she did not envy these women their ability to channel—she was past that, surely—but she did envy the way none of them perspired. Her own face was quite damp.

-FoH, Ch 27

 

This would seem to prove that the anti-sweating trick is related to the ability to channel. However later in the very same chapter she thinks something suggesting the opposite

 

Siuan thought she might sweat down to nothing if she could not find another way. She still had enough control of herself to ignore the heat, usually, but not while trying to drag these women along without letting them notice her fist in their hair.

-FoH, Ch 27

 

 

I'm confused. Which way is it? Can she use the anti-sweating trick after being stilled or not?

[Terez]

I get the impression that it's a matter of concentration, but it's made much easier if you can channel.

[herid]

I get the impression that it's a matter of concentration, but it's made much easier if you can channel.

ah, ok, you are probably right.

[Terez]

It was pretty much the same thing with the kerchief trick. Aviendha could do it, but Min and Birgitte couldn't manage it.

[yoniy0]

I'm surprised you didn't mention that Maria agrees with you (though it doesn't seem like she was going by the notes):

Luckers: Min says she was never able to master the ‘ignoring heat/cold’ trick, and we’ve never seen any non-channeler master it. Is it something only a channeler can do?

Maria: It shouldn’t be. Of course, it’s been kept secret from most non-channelers, so that’s not really evidence. I think that part of it is that a channeler is used to controlling things more – they have to have more focus and self-discipline just to manage the One Power, so they are better at controlling their reactions in general, and the trick works better for them because of it.

Herid, I don't see those two sentences as conflicting. She mentioned being envious of their dry brows, not their ability to ignore the heat. Indeed, her second comment confirmed that while she could usually do it, she couldn't under that much pressure. And that's not the first time we've seen an AS break concentration under pressure.

[herid]

It was pretty much the same thing with the kerchief trick. Aviendha could do it, but Min and Birgitte couldn't manage it.

it took me some time to figure out which kerchief trick you meant but yes, you are right, it seems to be the same there. Except that the kerchief trick didn't seem to work for Min at all while the anti-sweating trick seems to work for Siuan at least a little. It was that half way business that I found confusing.

 

 

I'm surprised you didn't mention that Maria agrees with you (though it doesn't seem like she was going by the notes):

Luckers: Min says she was never able to master the ‘ignoring heat/cold’ trick, and we’ve never seen any non-channeler master it. Is it something only a channeler can do?

Maria: It shouldn’t be. Of course, it’s been kept secret from most non-channelers, so that’s not really evidence. I think that part of it is that a channeler is used to controlling things more – they have to have more focus and self-discipline just to manage the One Power, so they are better at controlling their reactions in general, and the trick works better for them because of it.

I don't see that quote as agreeing with what terez said. Maria is saying there that channeling ability is not necessary and it's all concentration and focus, but the Aes Sedai are good at it because they need those things to channel. Maria seems to be inventing

there and it looks wrong to me. If that's all it was Siuan should have lost none of her abilities in ignoring heat after she was stilled. She had years practicing focus and self-discipline. stilling would not affect any of that. This is just a wrong explanation IMO and terez gave the right one.

Herid, I don't see those two sentences as conflicting. She mentioned being envious of their dry brows, not their ability to ignore the heat. Indeed, her second comment confirmed that while she could usually do it, she couldn't under that much pressure. And that's not the first time we've seen an AS break concentration under pressure.

I disagree. Old Siuan would never crack that way. She was Amyrlin and faced all kinds of pressure in her life. we've never seen her loose her cool like that. r It's quite clear that her loss of channeling ability plays a role in this.

Edited May 8, 2011 by herid

[yoniy0]

If that's all it was Siuan should have lost none of her abilities in ignoring heat after she was stilled.

[...]

I disagree. Old Siuan would never crack that way. She was Amyrlin and faced all kinds of pressure in her life. we've never seen her loose her cool like that. r It's quite clear that her loss of channeling ability plays a role in this.

Well, it isn't to me. It's quite a different thing to be grilled by a group of women strong enough to do whatever they wish with you, who have a good reason to resent you, than it is to deal with (even severe) danger when you know yourself capable of handling it. As long as you feel in control, nerves can be mastered. But in that situation Siuan was truly and clearly out of control.

[sleepinghour]

Old Siuan would never crack that way. She was Amyrlin and faced all kinds of pressure in her life. we've never seen her loose her cool like that.

On that note, I also found it strange that Siuan's appearance changed so much after being stilled:

 

She had schooled herself not to see her old friend in this woman's face—not hard, since she looked nothing at all like the Siuan Sanche Delana remembered, not at any age—yet seeing Siuan again, a Siuan young and pretty, was only the first shock.

It should have restored Siuan to the way she looked as a novice or Accepted, yet Siuan herself says not even Moiraine would recognize her now. The ageless look shouldn't make that much of a difference—Moiraine is still similar enough to Caraline that Min almost thought they were the same woman. So it makes no sense for Siuan to be virtually unrecognizable, and go from being "plain-faced" in TGH to a pretty woman. It felt like an excuse for RJ to make Siuan more attractive before pairing her up with Bryne.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I read the not being recognizable bit as Moiraine would not even think to recognize a young Suian looking like the older one. I mean, who can reverse their age?

 

She does mention that some Aes Sedai would only see her as a young woman that vaguely resembled her. So i dont think she is any different (or not drastically) from her younger self, its just that nobody would remember/think to make the conection.

 

Who can remember what they looked like 20 years ago? Remembering that Aes Sedai dont have photographs and the like. I would say it would be very difficult to recognize her.

[Terez]

It was pretty much the same thing with the kerchief trick. Aviendha could do it, but Min and Birgitte couldn't manage it.

it took me some time to figure out which kerchief trick you meant but yes, you are right, it seems to be the same there. Except that the kerchief trick didn't seem to work for Min at all while the anti-sweating trick seems to work for Siuan at least a little. It was that half way business that I found confusing.

I think that is more or less explained by Siuan's previous experience.

 

I'm surprised you didn't mention that Maria agrees with you (though it doesn't seem like she was going by the notes)

I'd forgotten about that.

 

She does mention that some Aes Sedai would only see her as a young woman that vaguely resembled her. So i dont think she is any different (or not drastically) from her younger self, its just that nobody would remember/think to make the conection.

Siuan contradicts that herself:

 

She had met women who would pay any price to lose fifteen or twenty years; some might even consider her price a fair bargain. She often found herself listing such advantages, perhaps trying to convince herself they were real. Freed from the Three Oaths, she could lie at need, for one thing. And her own father would not have recognized her. She did not really look as she had as a young woman; the changes maturity had made were still there, but softened into youth. Coldly objective, she thought she might be somewhat prettier than she had been as a girl; pretty was the best that had ever been said of her. Handsome had been the more usual compliment. She could not connect that face to her, to Siuan Sanche. Only inside was she still the same; her mind yet held all its knowledge. There, in her head, she was still herself.