Elaida (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

We totally should have gotten to see her collared.

 

[Oneiricer]

Did she have the ability to travel? Do we know anyone out of the 25 AS who got captued know how to travel?

[Luckers]

She does, yes. It was the one weave we directly see Beonin teach her.

[Elgee]

Maybe we will see an Elaida PoV in the next book? I hope so!

[Luckers]

I'm expecting so.

[Daruya]

Is it possible Elaida was placed under compulsion, either just before Siaun's overthrow or just after she was "raised" to Amyrlin?  I realize she was always unpleasant but at the end she was beyond erratic and unstable and was becoming more so daily, it seems. 

 

I'm curious - if she was under compulsion, could the "link" of the a'dam break it somehow, or supersede it?

 

I don't like Elaida and never did but I can't help but think someone did compulse her for her to so blindly destroy the Tower.  We never saw that from Alviarin's viewpoint, at least not explicitly, but it is possible that she or perhaps one of the other Black sisters took advantage of an opportunity to do so.

 

[analyticalkeys]

Is it possible Elaida was placed under compulsion, either just before Siaun's overthrow or just after she was "raised" to Amyrlin?  I realize she was always unpleasant but at the end she was beyond erratic and unstable and was becoming more so daily, it seems. 

 

I'm curious - if she was under compulsion, could the "link" of the a'dam break it somehow, or supersede it?

 

I don't like Elaida and never did but I can't help but think someone did compulse her for her to so blindly destroy the Tower.  We never saw that from Alviarin's viewpoint, at least not explicitly, but it is possible that she or perhaps one of the other Black sisters took advantage of an opportunity to do so.

 

 

BS said that Padan Fain's encounter with her left some of his Mordeth taint on her, and caused her to become more irritable.

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

I think that Elaida will be the easiest Aes Sedai to turn into a damane. This is because of her lack of control over her emotions and her total lack of Aes Sedai calm and demeanor. A trained sul'dam would be able to use these weaknesses to directly influence her and control her.

[Jemlin]

Yeah, but taint and compulsion are very different.  However, I don't think either would magically disappear once the A'dam are placed. MOstly, because its evident that the Three Oaths also remain...so why would something else just go fizzle?

 

In relation to Elaida and the other newly acquired Aes Sedai, I am wondering if this will enhance the chance that the Seanchan will devise a way to either work past the Oath Rod (I will kill you if you do not attack the Tower.  Those are not your Sisters. We are your Sisters. Marci is a good damane. etc)...or somehow obtain one.  

 

Mostly, because I don't think we have seen the dream of the line of women in dresses with serpent rings attacking the walls of the tower happen yet.  I think there will be another assault on the White Tower, this time with a combo of collared Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and regular Damane =[

 

[analyticalkeys]

Yeah, but taint and compulsion are very different.

 

I understand this, but the taint explains Elaida's behavior well enough.. there's no need to add Compulsion to it. Look how paranoid Fain became.. Elaida was acting in a very similar manner, although without as much bloodthirst, obviously because she only got a small piece of taint.

[Jemlin]

Yeah, but taint and compulsion are very different.

 

I understand this, but the taint explains Elaida's behavior well enough.. there's no need to add Compulsion to it. Look how paranoid Fain became.. Elaida was acting in a very similar manner, although without as much bloodthirst, obviously because she only got a small piece of taint.

 

Oh, I understand, I am just saying that the question of whether or not collaring would dissipate a taint or compulsion is answered by a "No".  They would remain, since something like the three Oaths remain.  I bet, especially a taint from Mordeth.

 

[Lambada]

Mostly, because I don't think we have seen the dream of the line of women in dresses with serpent rings attacking the walls of the tower happen yet.  I think there will be another assault on the White Tower, this time with a combo of collared Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and regular Damane =[

I'd forgotten about that dream, but I'd argue that that is quite possibly symbolic of the Black Ajah and their actions throughout this division. Or just of the division in general. Depends on the exact wording.

 

EDIT:

I retract that as i've just read the actual sentence directly. I shall revise this later.

[Jemlin]

Mostly, because I don't think we have seen the dream of the line of women in dresses with serpent rings attacking the walls of the tower happen yet.  I think there will be another assault on the White Tower, this time with a combo of collared Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and regular Damane =[

I'd forgotten about that dream, but I'd argue that that is quite possibly symbolic of the Black Ajah and their actions throughout this division. Or just of the division in general. Depends on the exact wording.

 

It could be, but then again, it doesn't symbolically relate to the BA, since in the dream the women were collared, and the BA were not.  Nor, were the BA influenced by the Seanchan.  They seemed to be as ignorant of them as the non BA Aes Sedai lol

 

[Luckers]

Mostly, because I don't think we have seen the dream of the line of women in dresses with serpent rings attacking the walls of the tower happen yet.  I think there will be another assault on the White Tower, this time with a combo of collared Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and regular Damane =[

 

I'm actually growing increasingly convinced that this is a false dream. They happen.

 

I think that Elaida will be the easiest Aes Sedai to turn into a damane. This is because of her lack of control over her emotions and her total lack of Aes Sedai calm and demeanor. A trained sul'dam would be able to use these weaknesses to directly influence her and control her.

 

Fain himself pointed out that Elaida would be easily broken. It's part of the same problem Rand had--they were too hard, and thus brittle. Elaida simply didn't have a Cadsuane there to pull her in line.

[mike-cook]

ya Fain definitely tainted Elaida.

Lord of Choas, Chapter 28

"Unlikely Niall would have ever supported al'Thor any more than Elaida would have, but it was best not too take too much for granted with Rand bloody al'Thor. Well, he had brushed them both with what he carried from Aridhol; they might possibly trust their own mothers, but never al'Thor now."

[analyticalkeys]

ya Fain definitely tainted Elaida.

Lord of Choas, Chapter 28

"Unlikely Niall would have ever supported al'Thor any more than Elaida would have, but it was best not too take too much for granted with Rand bloody al'Thor. Well, he had brushed them both with what he carried from Aridhol; they might possibly trust their own mothers, but never al'Thor now."

 

Such an important detail, yet it was put in there so subtly that most people missed it.

 

Does anyone have an exact quote of the dream of the leashed ones attacking the Tower?

[JenniferL]

I'm expecting so.

 

I'm not. Elaida's last scene had an air of finality to it to me. I doubt we'll see her again.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I would like to start by saying thank you to Luckers for starting this thread.   I hope you got my personal message but if not I really did not intend to come off a passive aggressive in my request for this thread.  My apologies if I offended :)

 

In whatever truce the Randlanders forge with the Seanchan I have to wonder if Egwene might end up interceding on behalf of Elaida.   Egwene herself was once leashed and this event still haunts her.   I can't imagine she would wish this fate on anyone, not even a woman who was once her rival.   Also it wouldn't be like Elaida were getting off the hook, what greater punishment could Elaida suffer than owing her very freedom to Egwene?

 

I'm also very curious to know what everyone thinks of Elaida's fate.  Is being collared an appropriate punishment for her crimes or is this too harsh even for her.   For me there was some sense of satisfaction when I found that she had been taken by the Seanchan but oddly I couldn't help but feel a little sorry for her.   I think a temporary stint as damane might teach her some much needed humility but I still think life as damane is a bit much even for her.

 

On the other hand, I could see the story progressing such that Elaida has no further part to play and that at some point some AS see a very compliant damane that very much resembles Elaida.  And that is the last we ever see of her.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Maybe we will see an Elaida PoV in the next book? I hope so!

 

I would certainly love to be a fly on the wall during her damane training.  I think she will react similar to Semirhage in that she will be arrogant and threatening at first but once she realizes that her captors are firmly in control and will physically punish her she will become really compliant really quickly.

[SuperFade]

Seeing Elaida finally get her comeuppance was incredibly satisfying.

 

...And yet. She seemed somewhat less cunning in The Gathering Storm. We've seen repeatedly that Elaida is obsessed with power, but she always had the brains to keep herself in control; she never stopped scheming, even managing to turn things around when Alviarin gained control over her. She always manipulated events so that her failures were shifted onto someone else. It seemd to me like she was gotten rid of far too easily for a woman of her tenacity.

 

Though that could be because nobody had ever resisted her like Egwene had. I'm glad to see Elaida gone, and the debate between her and Egwene was a brilliant moment. She will be a good damane, indeed.

[1eejit]

I'm expecting so.

 

I expect we'll see her again, but possibly only from Fortuona's PoV.

[Jemlin]

Personally, the only PoV I want from Elaida is her getting toasted by a weave from another Aes Sedai if she's forced to attack the White Tower. lol

 

On the Dream...I can't bring to mind any *false* dreams, other than ones that were viewed so early on, that the Dreamer (usually Eqwene) did not have as much detailed knowledge about the world, so they were very vague.  The dream of the line of sisters with rings, collared and being forced to call lightning on the tower, seems to full of specific detail to be discounted as vague.  Especially since Eqwene had enough knowledge to separate non-Aes Sedai Damane from Aes Sedai Damane. 

 

I don't think we can safely rule that dream out until later on in the book, or if BS says something about it. 

 

Either way, that and the dream of the Saenchan woman make me feel that we have not seen the last attempt of the Seanchan to quell the White Tower.

 

[Eleint]

My current thought is the 'collared women' is a metaphor, it being a dream.  One immediately thinks of the Seanchan.  But instead, it's going to be women who've been bond-compulsed by Taim and other Dark-turned folks in the Black Tower.  There are those Aes Sedai who disappeared down there, after all.  So the collared is enslaved, not an actual collar.

 

Could be wrong, though!

[NegaWalker]

I expect Elaida is going to be a plot point as well in the next book. With her knowledge of Traveling, she'll probably be given directly to the Empress, may she live forever, so they can disseminate Traveling to the other Damane.

 

Elaida will break swiftly, and the Empress, may she live forever, will ensure that all of the newly gained Aes Sedai are questioned for what weaves they know and what they don't know. Traveling especially.

 

The Seanchan with Travelling will be incredibly dangerous.

 

We're going to have to have one heck of a confrontation between Fortuona and Egwene to see this rectified. I don't think Fortuona will come to trust Rand again unless Mat is with him.

 

There is going to need to have /something/ happen there that makes the situation work.

 

I expect the possibility of Mat, at the Tower to retrieve the Horn of Valere, present during another Seanchan attack.

 

Its also possible that the Seanchan will be assailed more directly by the Shadow now that there is no one to hold them under the leash with Semihrage dead.

 

But as to the topic of Elaida, I expect Egwene will get her released somehow. Elaida's foretelling, weak as it is, might be useful and needed.

 

Of course, the taint left by Fain is still going to mess with Elaida's mind. Its possible Elaida just goes snap and mentally breaks down to the point where she is reduced to childlike imbicility.

 

Elaida, with how much we've come to absolutely despise the woman, might even just be forgotten after she treaches the Seanchan Traveling. Forgotten and left to be just this childlike damane. Perhaps taken to the Last Battle to fight in it and die. She almost deserves it.

[Daruya]

Elaida may very well end up being broken.  But will she give up the secret of Traveling?  Even when Moghedien was collared she made Nynaeve, Elayne, et al, really work for any new weaves.  They had to ask just the right questions, etc.

 

If Elaida retains any vestige of what the Oaths entail, will the knowledge that giving the Seanchean Travelling would be deadly to the Tower be enough such that the Oaths would force her to withhold that information?  An intriguing thought, though I’m not sure it holds water (probably just wishful thinking on my part!).

 

As much as I detest Elaida, the thought of any woman who channels being treated as sub-human is abhorrent to me, which is why I have such a problem with Tuon and the Seanchan.  Is she any less arrogant that the AS so many seem to love to hate?  Her empire is, to put it simply, a slave state where there are many “classes” of slaves.  Yes, AS believe they know what’s best for everyone and attempt to bully them into doing it.  OTOH, the Seanchan believes the Empress knows what is best for everyone and that she should be the Supreme Ruler of the World and then enslave people to make it happen.

 

I hope Elaida holds out and manages to redeem herself, I really do -- even if it means she dies to avoid giving up Travelling to the Seanchan.  Then, instead of being remembered solely as the Amyrlin who almost single-handedly almost destroyed the White Tower, she can be remembered as an Amyrlin who made a lot of mistakes but who then heroically sacrificed herself for the Tower, to keep it whole.

 

But, as Mat would say, it's "not bloody likely."

 

Also, even if Elaida is freed, I can't see her fitting quietly back into the WT as just another sister.  Stilling and exiling is not necessarily a permanent solution because stilling can be healed.  Her best wrap-up would be to die, IMO.