Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[Mr Ares]

Mesaana is much stronger than Egwene. Nynaeve is only barely stronger than Moghedien and she is the weakest of the female forsaken. I think the only person stronger than her that is on the Light's side is Alivia.

Moghedien being the weakest of the female Chosen is something often said on forums, but with nothing to back it up. Nothing in the books, and nothing from RJ that I'm aware of.

 

Apparently Nynaeve has been upgraded to the point that very few, and not many of the Forsaken are stronger than her in the Power. Which really doesn't seem all that interesting. I prefer my baddies being more powerful and threatening. The Forsaken have been turned into losers in just so many different ways.

 

Honestly, if you took away their powers and just made them random high level DFs, they'd be about as significant in the story. If they didn't have the OP, that would actually make them more interesting since they'd have at least made their minimal achievements through intelligent action and use of available resources as opposed to this situation where they completely fail to use the powers available to them.

 

Seriously, if nothing else, with Mesanna in the Tower (or any Black Ajah really), they should've been using the 13 AS, 13 Myrddraal thing to convert everyone. Seriously, how hard could it be to call meetings, get people alone, and start converting? Even easier with Forkroot. Convert Elaida first and you're already in a good position (not that Alviarin being Keeper was in a much worse position)

 

Seriously, RJ never thought much of this story through.

Well, the 13/13 trick doesn't automatically make you a Darkfriend. According to RJ, it just twists someones personality so the darker elements come to the forefront. Now, that sort of personality change is the sort of thing that might just be noticed. Also, the twisting might be time consuming. And nothing says BA like doing something to an AS with the help of 13 Fades. So you do something noticeable, and when people start noticing you've exposed the BA for gains that are likely to be pretty negligible. Maybe RJ gave this a bit more thought than you give him credit for?

[naath]

Regarding evading the Oath Rod;

 

it just occurred to me that whoever Mesaana is masquerading as must be a real Aes Sedai - someone she did away with and took the place of right?  So what if instead of killing her Mesaana has her captive someplace, if she did that then she could trivially get around the re-binding by getting the captive, using Compulsion on her and have her do the OR stuff.  The *real* Danelle (or whoever) probably wasn't a DF, and would pass the test easily.

 

Of course Mesaana also presumably knows everything there is to know about the OR and thus would know any ways that exist to defeat it.

[Fel]

Couldn't Mesaana have just warded herself (inverted of course) against the effects of the oath rod before going in to take the test?  She knows how it works and could have put a barrier between her hand and the oath rod that prevented it from affecting her.

 

Then, she can swear to her hearts content without any fear...

 

It seems a much easier explanation than mental gymnastics revolving around the difference between a forsaken and a darkfriend.

 

[naath]

Couldn't Mesaana have just warded herself (inverted of course) against the effects of the oath rod before going in to take the test? 

 

Perhaps.  But it was designed to hold channellers who broke the law, recall that Semi ran away to join the Forces Of Evil rather than be bound by it, I guess that means that Semi doesn't know how to avoid the effects of the OR (or didn't at that point).  Perhaps however it means that in the AoL channellers being bound were also subject to some test of whether they actually were.

[FanoLan]

Couldn't Mesaana have just warded herself (inverted of course) against the effects of the oath rod before going in to take the test?

 

Perhaps.  But it was designed to hold channellers who broke the law, recall that Semi ran away to join the Forces Of Evil rather than be bound by it, I guess that means that Semi doesn't know how to avoid the effects of the OR (or didn't at that point).  Perhaps however it means that in the AoL channellers being bound were also subject to some test of whether they actually were.

 

Or, to extrapolate from your last point, that the folks administering justice in the AoL knew what they were doing somewhat better than the current crop of Aes Sedai.  Appropriate procedures would have been in place when the oath rods were used as intended.  Since even inverted weaves are impossible when shielded, and methods for ward-sweeping likely were known back in the day, it's not too hard to conclude Messy has the leg up in terms of out-maneuvering Egwene compared to convicted criminals in the AoL escaping justice at the hands of experienced Aes Sedai.

 

On a related note, has there been much discussion on the distinct numberings on the two different oath roads we've seen (Therava's and the Tower's)?  I'm not sure exactly how that might come into play here, but it strikes me as the type of detail that will have greater significance than originally perceived by the character's PoV (Galina).  Therava's - what looks to be the number one hundred eleven but could also be similar to roman numerals (i.e. one one one).  Tower's - numeral three (3).

[clu7ch]

or maybe she just...ya know, pulled a Crouch/Moody from harry potter. She's impersonating a real sister, didn't kill the actual person, just keeps her in a box somewhere, she needs to reswear the oaths, so she fakes having to go pee real fast, runs and gets the real person, compells her, and has the real one retake the oaths. BAM

[FanoLan]

or maybe she just...ya know, pulled a Crouch/Moody from harry potter. She's impersonating a real sister, didn't kill the actual person, just keeps her in a box somewhere, she needs to reswear the oaths, so she fakes having to go pee real fast, runs and gets the real person, compells her, and has the real one retake the oaths. BAM

 

Haven't read Harry Potter and am continually amused at the cross-references when they appear on this site.  Thank you for the explanation that follows, it certainly appears possible.  Some practical considerations come to mind (who is the jailer for one, as far as feeding, etc. - kind of tedious/non-productive work) but nothing that makes me conclude it's an impossible scenario.

 

[clu7ch]

no idea who's feeding her, but i'd guess you just find the smelliest room and there's where she is!!

[FanoLan]

Re: Oath Rods - I edited the following into my previous post, but now want to post it separately to hopefully garner feedback on the question.

 

On a related note, has there been much discussion on the distinct numberings on the two different oath roads we've seen (Therava's and the Tower's)?  I'm not sure exactly how that might come into play here, but it strikes me as the type of detail that will have greater significance than originally perceived by the character's PoV (Galina).  Therava's - what looks to be the number one hundred eleven but could also be similar to roman numerals (i.e. one one one).  Tower's - numeral three (3).

[FanoLan]

no idea who's feeding her, but i'd guess you just find the smelliest room and there's where she is!!

 

Lots of those in Tar Valon these days if not the Tower itself.  That damned Elaida, errr Suffa  >:(

 

Seems like either a lot of foresight on Messy's part or extraneous effort for no real reason.  How could she know Egwene would succeed and reunite the Tower then initiate a purge using the Oath Rod?  Messy exuded a good bit of confidence regarding her efforts to get the Aes Sedai working for the GLoD at TG, doesn't seem like she was expecting to fail at that endeavor, especially so quickly.

 

And if not in preparation for such a purge, why else would Messy keep her alter-ego around and whole?  Just a useless, potentially fatal, piece of evidence to not dispose of at the first opportunity.  Semi was the sadistic one who I could see keeping around such a person just for the pleasure of torturing her from time to time, but not Messy.

[OHurley]

Random question-

 

Are the two rods that we know about (or is it three that we've encountered so far.. I know there's a black one.) Are the rods what used to be known as the "Nine Rods of Dominion" which only the AS who wore the Ring of Tamyrlin could summon?

[sdelu]

Random question-

 

Are the two rods that we know about (or is it three that we've encountered so far.. I know there's a black one.) Are the rods what used to be known as the "Nine Rods of Dominion" which only the AS who wore the Ring of Tamyrlin could summon?

 

No. The NRoD were the regional rulers of the planet during the AoL.

 

They were actual people, and they were, but you might call them regional governors of the earth, regional governors of the planet. So if I say, summon them, then we’ve got a guy who has been given in effect ultimate power.

 

- Robert Jordan, Dragoncon, September 2005

[Firebird]

i am tending to lean to the way that the bloodknives aren't going to be trouble. first off they are only going to be alive for a few days and secondly if gareth byrne could kill one then it should be no prob for the AS. they aren't gray men on steroids.

 

 

The blood knives only live a few days if they wear their rings constantly. If they are able to take them off, they can live for weeks. So you might have a situation where they hole up in a room in Tar Valon town somewhere, then put the rings on only when they're ready to sneak into the Tower. Remember that they are the elite of the Seanchan force, so I imagine them being souped-up ninja warrior types. Yes they could be killed by an Aes Sedai fireball, but they certainly aren't inconsequential either. I think they could cause major problems for the Tower when they first appear. Once everyone knows about their existence, their job will become more difficult.

[Firebird]

I have another question following the discussions about people being turned to the dark against their will.

 

As far as we know, has this actually happened to anyone in the books (i.e. within the current time period in Randland)? My feeling was that it hadn't (as far as we know) but I may be having a huge mental block.

 

If it hasn't happened, well, there's been a lot of text throughout the books on this subject. Do you think someone may be turned against their will before the series finishes? (Please be Egwene, please be Egwene!!)  :P

[Second Chance]

I have my suspicions that this HAS been done to Taim however.

As do I... so this is my guess Firebird. Hardly a controversial topic (we all know Taim is bad) but I think 2 RJ comments give the hint. First, the 13/13 process magnifies somebody's not-niceness. Second, RJ said Taim was never a nice guy. Second comment could of course mean he was always a Darkfriend but I personally lean to 13/13 now.

[WolfDragonFox]

I have my suspicions that this HAS been done to Taim however.

As do I... so this is my guess Firebird. Hardly a controversial topic (we all know Taim is bad) but I think 2 RJ comments give the hint. First, the 13/13 process magnifies somebody's not-niceness. Second, RJ said Taim was never a nice guy. Second comment could of course mean he was always a Darkfriend but I personally lean to 13/13 now.

 

This is a fun new chip to chew on.  I think this calls for a new thread...

 

ADMINISTRATORS!!!!  WE DESPERATELY NEED YOU TO START A NEW THREAD, OR i GUESS I COULD GIVE IT A WHIRL! 

 

Either way lets take this chat off of Messaana's holy thread. 

 

Oh and by the by, from reading some of Sheriam's POV's I believe it was done to her, but that is all I will say, NEW THREAD TIME FOR A NEW TOPIC

[WolfDragonFox]

an BTW, Second Chance, your signature quote is THE BEST! fantastic choice from Mat's many memorable moments.

[Tlan]

I havn't read all the post's in this thread so not sure if this has been discussed earlier, but I had a thought about Mesaana posing as an AS. (I dont have any books infront of me so I might be wrong here)

 

I seem to remember Graendal commenting about Cyndane and her ability to channel. She says that she is weaker that Lanfear and wondered if it really was her. If there is a weave that hides part of your ability/strenght isn't it reasonable to think that Graendal knows it or atleast knows it is possible?

 

Based on Graendals thoughts I take it that this is not possible and ergo Mesaana can't pose as an AS.

[FanoLan]

I have my suspicions that this HAS been done to Taim however.

As do I... so this is my guess Firebird. Hardly a controversial topic (we all know Taim is bad) but I think 2 RJ comments give the hint. First, the 13/13 process magnifies somebody's not-niceness. Second, RJ said Taim was never a nice guy. Second comment could of course mean he was always a Darkfriend but I personally lean to 13/13 now.

This is a fun new chip to chew on.  I think this calls for a new thread...

 

ADMINISTRATORS!!!!  WE DESPERATELY NEED YOU TO START A NEW THREAD, OR i GUESS I COULD GIVE IT A WHIRL! 

 

Either way lets take this chat off of Messaana's holy thread. 

 

Oh and by the by, from reading some of Sheriam's POV's I believe it was done to her, but that is all I will say, NEW THREAD TIME FOR A NEW TOPIC

 

13/13xTaim is definitely not a new chip on the boards, that's something that's been discussed for years, if not a decade.

 

Sheriam's PoV in tGS explicitly declares she turned to the dark of her own volition.  It's not debatable, or vague in any way.  Perhaps a re-read would serve you well at this point.  Enough of the relevant text to make my point follows from Ch. 25, p. 379, Sheriam thinking to herself:

 

"Her allegiances had brought her power, as promised."

"She wasn't so naive as to feel guilty about the things she'd done."

"She'd joined (the BA) to rise in White Tower politics, to have the power to punish those who spited her."

 

Sheriam expresses regret at having to deal with the Chosen and participate in "some final reckoning with the Dragon Reborn" but not any thought of changing her mind about joining the BA.  Interesting language re: final reckoning coming from one of the DO's minions.  Messy then shows up in her tent and delivers the dreamweaver theft instructions and Sheriam's time of peace is terminated.  Unfortunately, the only real clue to Messy's ID comes during her departure when Sheriam sees a Tower hallway through the gateway - and we already know from BrS quotes that Messy is still there.

 

[FanoLan]

I havn't read all the post's in this thread so not sure if this has been discussed earlier, but I had a thought about Mesaana posing as an AS. (I dont have any books infront of me so I might be wrong here)

 

I seem to remember Graendal commenting about Cyndane and her ability to channel. She says that she is weaker that Lanfear and wondered if it really was her. If there is a weave that hides part of your ability/strenght isn't it reasonable to think that Graendal knows it or atleast knows it is possible?

 

Based on Graendals thoughts I take it that this is not possible and ergo Mesaana can't pose as an AS.

 

It's not explicit in the text of the books, but RJ confirmed in a Q&A that is was possible to partially reveal one's power.  Also, we have indirect confirmation early in the series when Lanfear posed as a Novice named Else and no one notices the most powerful female channeler possible.

[Sharaman]

BS says Egwene's logic is "not incorrect". The way that section is written, it's not very clear how she's eliminating.

Here are some lists

1) Verin's list of BA - everybody is accounted for, executed, captured by Seanchan, escaped,out of the Tower for a while

2) A list of AS who were in the Tower, not on V's list, and "either had been captured by Seanchan or disappeared" post-raid.

3) A list compiled by Saerin of AS missing immediately post-attack - some 2 dozen full AS and around 40 initiates in total

4) A list of three women in the Tower who Verin hadn't picked up and who failed the oath rod test

5) A list of another three, Nerasia, Teremina, Jamilila --who had been in the Tower for years and were somehow left over

as in not part of the above 4 sets

6) A large list of AS who have passed the rod

She suspects that Messi is in 6).

What's not clear to me is

how she narrows to 5) the set of three AS, which she rejects as "possibles".

These three somehow don't belong to 1), 2), 3),4), 6).

So look at list 5)

They're not part of Verin's list. Ok 1) is met.

If 2) is met - they've not disappeared immediately post-attack- fine

If 2,and 1 are met, then 3) is met because 2) and 3) arrive from comparison with 1) - fine so far

IF 4) is met - they've passed the OR test because they were in the Tower, not part of V's list and not disappeared

in that case, 5) is part of 6).

So how does she isolate these three specifically from the whole mess of AS?

Am I missing a verbal trick here or something in the chain of logic is not explicit?

 

 

[SimpleJo]

It's not explicit in the text of the books, but RJ confirmed in a Q&A that is was possible to partially reveal one's power.  Also, we have indirect confirmation early in the series when Lanfear posed as a Novice named Else and no one notices the most powerful female channeler possible

It actually is said somewhere in the books I forget where though.  A great place to understand what can be done via Warding/Shielding/Inverting/Masking of weaves in in the RPG that was made of the series of which Mr. Jordan had full input and gave his full permission.  It also gives a good baseline on how the Taint works and gives a great baseline on specific levels of insanity that the Ashaman and Rand are suffering and a given time in any of the books.

[Shmuel Goldberg]

BS says Egwene's logic is "not incorrect". The way that section is written, it's not very clear how she's eliminating.

Here are some lists

1) Verin's list of BA - everybody is accounted for, executed, captured by Seanchan, escaped,out of the Tower for a while

2) A list of AS who were in the Tower, not on V's list, and "either had been captured by Seanchan or disappeared" post-raid.

3) A list compiled by Saerin of AS missing immediately post-attack - some 2 dozen full AS and around 40 initiates in total

4) A list of three women in the Tower who Verin hadn't picked up and who failed the oath rod test

5) A list of another three, Nerasia, Teremina, Jamilila --who had been in the Tower for years and were somehow left over

as in not part of the above 4 sets

6) A large list of AS who have passed the rod

She suspects that Messi is in 6).

What's not clear to me is

how she narrows to 5) the set of three AS, which she rejects as "possibles".

These three somehow don't belong to 1), 2), 3),4), 6).

So look at list 5)

They're not part of Verin's list. Ok 1) is met.

If 2) is met - they've not disappeared immediately post-attack- fine

If 2,and 1 are met, then 3) is met because 2) and 3) arrive from comparison with 1) - fine so far

IF 4) is met - they've passed the OR test because they were in the Tower, not part of V's list and not disappeared

in that case, 5) is part of 6).

So how does she isolate these three specifically from the whole mess of AS?

Am I missing a verbal trick here or something in the chain of logic is not explicit?

 

 

 

Excellent question. I remember thinking about it myself when I read that part. But then I still had a book to finish. Thanks for reminding me about this puzzle.

[Dunderdan]

I think this issue was settled some eight pages ago: Its Danelle, she can mask her strenght and shes sworn shes not BA or a darkfriend, because shes not. Shes a Forsaken. Theres tons of evidence supporting the Danelle theory in this thread if you go back and read it.

 

[Sharaman]

I've read the Danelle logic thread and stated my possible reservations to it in the earlier pages of this thread. You could go back and read those posts if you want to cast some doubt on the Danelle=Messi logic. I'm more interested here in Egwene's logic because it's not transparent and BS has said it's "not incorrect".