Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[millnoc]

The ship is moving in time with the ocean, and a gateways edges are sharper than a razorblade.  You do the math.

[OHurley]

Millnoc-

 

That's a really point, man. It stands to reason that the gateway would indeed just stay put while the ship moved. One could also make an argument that it wouldn't, but both really would have equal footing... no pun intended  ;D

 

It just makes too much sense for Amylia to be Mesaana. The blue eyes and pale blond hair, the bronze dress, the Brown Ajah, the fact that she's stayed behind the lines and kept quiet, she obviously supported Elaida because she remained loyal to the Tower, the Sea Folk islands would probably be a good place to lay low if she managed to get there (which is certainly a possibility). Idk, could she really be a red herring? If so, then she's as bad a one as Taimandred...

 

I mean, the Forsaken have left the Atha'an Miere largely untouched, so why WOULDN'T one of them at least just TRY to infiltrate them. Complusion is a powerful tool...

 

Also, I'm not sure on this, but aren't there still some sedintary Sea Folk vessels docked in port in Illian or Tear or something? She could be there.

[moffwolf]

The problem, Ohurley, is that people know what amylia looked like before mesaana took over for her.  Messy may share the same feature, but she still could not pass for amylia.  Thus, she would have to be in disguise in order to pass off being another person.  If she were in disguise, her looks/dress are totally irrelevant.  Furthermore, it has also been confirmed that you cannot travel back and forth from a moving ship. 

[OHurley]

moffwolf-

 

Thanks for shedding light on the Traveling/Ship thing. I didn't know that. As for people knowing Amylia, how do you know this? I don't remember Amylia even being mentioned before book 4 or 5, and even then it was like a brief mention of the fact that there was an AS named Amylia.

[moffwolf]

The other brown ajah know amylia.  You can't sit in a meeting pretending to be somebody else without some one noticing.  She may play a small role, but a person is still recognizable.  I can't just walk into a room in a random office building and pretend to do somebody else's job simply because I kind of look like the guy. In order to pull it off I have to look EXACTLY like the guy, thus the need for mesaana to do her illlusion.  Once she does her illusion, she can look like any one. 

[Sharaman]

The ship is moving in time with the ocean, and a gateways edges are sharper than a razorblade.  You do the math.

Did this point come up when Logain met the sea folk - the Mourn enroute to TG scene in KoD? I seem to remember something about it. My take would be, you may be able to gate off a moving ship if you were fast and made a gate of the right dimensions. But you'd have a helluva time getting back. Unless skimming works when full on Travelling doesn't.

 

[OHurley]

moffwolf-

 

I believe Verin confirmed that she's masquerading as a full sister, so why not Amylia? It's not like she's Romanda or Lelaine, or Silviana. Besides- she's Brown. It's ok for her to be absorbed in studies and completely anti-social. Also, has she BEEN in any meetings with anybody? I barely remember being mentioned prior to KoD. Also, the only other leading candidate is Danelle. Everyone "knows" her too. And Amylia fits WAY better than Danelle, IMHO.

 

Sharaman-

 

I've wondered about Skimming, myself. It's certainly a possibility. Of course, Amylia being with the Sea Folk does NOT NECESSARILY mean that she's on a ship at sea. She could be docked, or even on one of their home islands. We can't rule out the entire possibility that Mesaana could be with the Sea Folk based on one small point of logic that may or may not be relevant. If stationary, she could easily Travel at will.

 

Anyway, what other candidates are there? Tarna Feir? Nope. Danelle? Maybe, but probably not. Amylia fits ALL the criteria.

[Firebird]

I believe Verin confirmed that she's masquerading as a full sister, so why not Amylia? It's not like she's Romanda or Lelaine, or Silviana. Besides- she's Brown. It's ok for her to be absorbed in studies and completely anti-social. Also, has she BEEN in any meetings with anybody? I barely remember being mentioned prior to KoD. Also, the only other leading candidate is Danelle. Everyone "knows" her too. And Amylia fits WAY better than Danelle, IMHO.

RJ said at a book signing event in 2003 that "there are many clues as to Mesaana's identity, enough that we should figure it out before COT".

Since Amylia is first introduced in KoD, she can't be Mesaana.

[moffwolf]

What Amylia fits is the physical profile. We have already determined that physical looks mean absolutely nothing with a disguise.  The fact that she is a brown ajah aes sedai is circumstancial.  That's the only evidence you have linking her to Messy.  I don't think there a single bit of evidence that Amylia was involved in any thing weird to put a rent in the tower.  Whereas Danelle. . .

 

For Danelle we have evidence that she was responsible for hiring 200 "masons" that were involved in the fighting after the overthrow of Siuan.  For her to do that she had to know that there WOULD be fighting, and put troops in disguise inside the tower to wreak havoc.  She was also there with Elaida when Elaida first confronts Siuan and rips off her stole.  We also have more circumstancial evidence on Danelle than Amylia. Danelle walked by Alviarin just before Alviarin got to her room and Messy confronted her. While she's Brown Ajah (same as Amylia), she's also known for not having any friends.  

 

On an unrelated note, RJ said we should have figured it out by COT.  The evidence linking Danelle to Messy was all there by this time.  

[WolfDragonFox]

  Whereas Danelle. . .

 

For Danelle we have evidence that she was responsible for hiring 200 "masons" that were involved in the fighting after the overthrow of Siuan.  For her to do that she had to know that there WOULD be fighting, and put troops in disguise inside the tower to wreak havoc.  She was also there with Elaida when Elaida first confronts Siuan and rips off her stole.  We also have more circumstancial evidence on Danelle than Amylia. Danelle walked by Alviarin just before Alviarin got to her room and Messy confronted her. While she's Brown Ajah (same as Amylia), she's also known for not having any friends. 

 

On an unrelated note, RJ said we should have figured it out by COT.  The evidence linking Danelle to Messy was all there by this time. 

 

Bravo for this Moffwolf, I couldn't agree more seeing as I also said this but I believe with the way you've just batted clean up on this we can put it all to rest because I will even be willing to put money on Messy being Danelle now, thanks for expounding on what you and I and many others have been trying to tell everyone else.  Case closed, now lets just hope Brandon Sandy doesn't decide to bone us by changing it in SPITE!...lol j/k he wouldn't DARE...mwwuuhahahahaha...Finito!

[WolfDragonFox]

Just for Good measure I decided to find a few book quotes to help solidify this case for Danelle being Mesaana.  These are barrowed from: http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Danelle Danelles page on tarvalon.net.  

 

Danelle, on the other hand, the young Brown sister who was supposed to be watching Master Jovarin, the mason, was most likely letting herself be distracted by the books the fellow kept finding for her. That was the only way to explain her failure to question the number of workmen Jovarin claimed to have hired (Siuan, The Shadow Rising, Chapter 47)

 

Her cold rage should have sent them scurrying, but though a few shifted uneasily, none made a move toward the door. Little Danelle actually smirked at her. And Elaida calmly reached out and pulled the striped stole from Siuan's shoulders. (Deposing Siuan Sanche TSR, Ch. 47)

 

They eyed her as she passed, uneasy often as not. The only one to ignore her was Danelle, a dreamy Brown sister. She had been part of bringing down Siuan Sanche and raising Elaida, but lost in her own thoughts, a solitary with no friends even in her own Ajah, she seemed unaware that she had been shoved aside. (Alviarin after being demoted ACoS, Prologue)

 

 I've taken the liberty to highlight the key points of these quotes which are VERBATUM from the book.  She is always pointed out to you explicitly and always accompanied with a discounting opinion by whoever it is noticing her be it Siuan or Alviarin or whoever!  She smirks at Siuan because she knows she's about to cause some serious Light disruption with her Deposition.  She plants the soldiers to get rid of some potentially problematic Warders and "Siuan Loyalists without them seeing it coming. And she ignores Alviarin because she is not concerned about her being out of the Keeper position she has other evil things afoot. The lines refers to her as young and that is to make her seem to be more likely to be distracted, but in point of fact I think it is the hint at her not having the ageless face for not working with the power very long which we know Messy has to be doing is hiding out as a newish AS.

 

  The final thing that drives home the point for me is that it is quoted in one of the books, I believe when Moggy was held in the rebel camp, that when using the Mask of Mirrors, it works best when ones features are only slightly altered or working close to the original look of ones face and form.  I will try to find this to be certain but this is exactly whay I thought of when i read the part of Alviarin seeing through Messy's illusion when SH cam calling and saw Messy's TRUE face and thought she looked vaguely familiar.

[moffwolf]

Great stuff, wolfdragonfox.  Wow, you have it all there for us.  I had completely forgotten about that remark about how illusions work best with those whose features are similar, and it simply is another nail in the coffin that danelle is our girl.  thanks for putting it all together. 

[WolfDragonFox]

Great stuff, wolfdragonfox.  Wow, you have it all there for us.  I had completely forgotten about that remark about how illusions work best with those whose features are similar, and it simply is another nail in the coffin that danelle is our girl.  thanks for putting it all together.  

 

You poured the concrete my friend and I just smoothed the surface out with some more digging.  Great team discovery!...lol  Why don't you do the honors and choose which unsolved mystery we should takle next.  Any mystery as long as it is one RJ has said is solveable by now.  Can't wait!

[imperium3]

Great stuff, wolfdragonfox.  Wow, you have it all there for us.  I had completely forgotten about that remark about how illusions work best with those whose features are similar, and it simply is another nail in the coffin that danelle is our girl.  thanks for putting it all together.  

 

You poured the concrete my friend and I just smoothed the surface out with some more digging.  Great team discovery!...lol  Why don't you do the honors and choose which unsolved mystery we should takle next.  Any mystery as long as it is one RJ has said is solveable by now.  Can't wait!

 

Who killed Asmodean?  ;D

 

Where is Demandred?  :P

 

Seriously though, good work on this. I'm now entirely convinced that Danelle is Mesaana.

[mossman87]

How do we actually KNOW that Mesaana is actually LIVING in the Tower? Has that been confirmed??? We know that she's behind all that chaos for sure and that she's taken a very active role in controlling the Tower and BA. BUT, how do we KNOW she's actually living there?

 

And also- why would a vessel be a bad place to hide? She just needs to know what her room on the vessel looks like to Travel from there and back. And besides- who's gonna be interrupting an Aes Sedai if she asks not be disturbed? She's an academic, so she might actually have a passing interest in actually just studying the Sea Folk. Either way, it gets her out of sight and physically out of the Tower.

 

Brandon confirmed Mesaana is still in the Tower.

[Declan]

thank you guys for convincing me that Danelle is Mesaana. i had been reading y'alls messages back and forth with interest and was pleased with the outcome.

 

Luckers may smite us or y'all if we start discussing Demandred and Asmodean on this thread.....within his control for sure

[imperium3]

Luckers may smite us or y'all if we start discussing Demandred and Asmodean on this thread.....within his control for sure

 

Well of course, I wasn't suggesting they discuss Asmo and Dem in THIS thread, as both have their own threads (and Luckers really would smite us!). I was just hoping the team could go over and help shed a bit of light on those mysteries.

 

 

[WolfDragonFox]

Thanks mossman87 for throwing in the BS confirmation, Thanks Declan for following us w/ ferver, I was so into it and been wanting to bust out my proof for awhile even though i think most people were on this track

with me I've been biding time and in this joint effort with moffwolf and everyone else who helped clean it all up and put the bow on it. Thanks imperium for the suggestions those are the two i think most want to know about. i think this thread is ready for lockdown (of course that is just my own confidence in us being right...lol not trying to be any kind of admin. MUCH LOVE LUCKERS!!!)

 

 Obviously the speculation will continue until the truth is revealed.  I will be addin you guys as buddies and let you know after i confer with moffwolf about what we should jointly takle next and message you about which thread it will be in.  Until then...

 

KEEP THE FAITH AND BE ASSURED THAT DANELLE IS MESSAANA...at least IMO!

[Jemlin]

How do we actually KNOW that Mesaana is actually LIVING in the Tower? Has that been confirmed??? We know that she's behind all that chaos for sure and that she's taken a very active role in controlling the Tower and BA. BUT, how do we KNOW she's actually living there?

 

And also- why would a vessel be a bad place to hide? She just needs to know what her room on the vessel looks like to Travel from there and back. And besides- who's gonna be interrupting an Aes Sedai if she asks not be disturbed? She's an academic, so she might actually have a passing interest in actually just studying the Sea Folk. Either way, it gets her out of sight and physically out of the Tower.

 

Brandon confirmed Mesaana is still in the Tower.

 

Aye, and I think the fact that we didn't really see anything of Danelle in the recent book gives a telling clue.  She wasn't mentioned on the list of BA, she wasn't mentioned on the list of deserters, or anywhere.  So, I have a feeling she is going to pop up in the tower, going about her "business", showing that she was still there the whole time. 

 

What I am wondering is just what can Eqwene do if she finds out?  She can't confront Masaana alone, unless she brings an Angreal with her.  If she gets a group to go with her, it might start a fuss or atleast alert Masaana to her coming...Egwene is going to have to be sneaky.  Or, Masaana/Danelle will have to make a classic mistake....whichI think she is fully capable of lol

 

[WolfDragonFox]

I think she will be all good alone, but she is definitely gonna make that classic mistake you are alluding to and I think that will be in the form of being overly accomadating to Egwene.  Eggy's gonna figure it out and make a public example out of her so she can establish even firmer holds to her position and authority and add to the whispers of the mighty Amyrlin that already float around and people can't believe when they hear they are true like in the meeting of the Ajah heads to decide to make the offer official...lol If even a forsaken can't elude Egwene, the faith and pride of the Tower will swell and invigorate and give courage to the AS that they have a puncher's chance at winning the Last Battle.

[Jemlin]

I think she will be all good alone, but she is definitely gonna make that classic mistake you are alluding to and I think that will be in the form of being overly accomadating to Egwene.  Eggy's gonna figure it out and make a public example out of her so she can establish even firmer holds to her position and authority and add to the whispers of the mighty Amyrlin that already float around and people can't believe when they hear they are true like in the meeting of the Ajah heads to decide to make the offer official...lol If even a forsaken can't elude Egwene, the faith and pride of the Tower will swell and invigorate and give courage to the AS that they have a puncher's chance at winning the Last Battle.

 

Hehe, something to go along with the "You really DO know everything...." stuff that she sparked in the Rebel camp =D

 

[WolfDragonFox]

Hehe, something to go along with the "You really DO know everything...." stuff that she sparked in the Rebel camp =D

 

 

You can't see me right now but I am tapping the side of my nose and saying "don't be hasty"

 

Yes I know I just dropped a LoTR movie quote from Pippin but it popped right in my head after I read your post which is exactly the scene I was picturing or close...lol I was thinking it would be a large scale version of when SHE showed Moggy how to Travel and said:

 

Don't ever assume I don't already know the answer to the questions I ask you. 

 

Above is not a verbatum quote but I love that scene it was so SLICK!

[Razor]

Forkroot tea, anyone?

[Declan]

if she is able to make the capture of a forsaken public and she does practically by herself, then she will have the whole tower behind. if it hasnt happened. they will be bowing before like a god (not that needs to happen, AS and their egos...)

[Firebird]

You know, there's an outside possibility that Egwene won't have to deal with Mesaana, because the Dark One (in the form of Shaidar Haran) will do it for her. Mesaana's job was to sow dissension in the ranks and break the White Tower. She's made an almighty eff up of that. She's already in trouble with the DO and has had a rather unpleasant visit from SH. And now the Tower is united, the Black Ajah are dead or scattered, and even Alviarin wants to kill her. Messy's in BIG trouble. Maybe SH will show up at Alviarin's pad one night and tell her to go kill Danelle (or whoever is your fav choice for Messy's identity). Next day, the Sisters find a body who kinda looks like Danelle (or whoever) and put two and two together.

 

Given that Egwene always gets to be the hero, it's more likely that she'll hunt her down and totally bitch slap her, but if I were Messy right now, I'd be seriously watching my back. The only thing that may save her is that the Dark One's minions are rather thin on the ground and he may want to save what's left. I reckon by the end of the book, she'll either be dead (killed by Eg, SH or Alviarin) or mind-trapped by Moridin or SH. I don't see her still being around for the Last Battle.