Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[moffwolf]

I honestly don't see any one that has come any where close to an argument that Messy is some one other than Danelle.  When I heard that RJ said that we should have figured it out by COT, this was the exact piece of evidence that led me to believe it was Danelle.  Think about the chaos she sowed in the tower by having a key role in the overthrow of Siuan.  Danelle also KNEW there would be fighting, likely because she started the whole thing.  What random librarian suddenly takes an interest in the overthrow of the Amyrlin?  So much so that she places TROOPS IN DISGUISE in the Tower just in case there was fighting?    

 

The rest of the evidence (brown dress, blue eyes, her researcher background, no friends, and that she's posing as Aes Sedai) is all circumstancial- but it all fits.  This is the answer.  Where exactly do you get the "fact" that she is posing as Aes Sedai. We have been told that she is in the White Tower and presume that she is am Aes Sedai but for all we know she could be a servant. Further adding up all the chaos that she has helped further I would suggest that Laras (mistress of the kitchens) is as good a candidate as any identified.

 

I can't remember.  I'll have to read the book again!  Lurkers states in the beginning of the thread that Graendal says shes Aes Sedai.  Can't confirm right now, but I will confirm that I didn't have this knowledge when I thought Danelle was Messy; I only knew she was in the tower posing as somebody (even if Graendal thinks this is true does not make it true).  Tell me, which is more likely?  That Messy would somehow learn all about Laras' personality, has total knowledge of how to run the Tower kitchen, and acts as a cook all day long in the tower?  This is not beyond the realm of possibility, of course, as Lanfear was able to portray Keille for long periods of time.  I just don't think it makes sense that a forsaken, or any one for that matter, would choose such a vivid personality as laras to portray if she wanted to keep a low profile. Forsaken aren't immune to boredom; I don't think this would be very fun unless Messy had some overwhelming desire to be a chef. Seriously, what a pain! Furthermore, as head chef, I think it would be very difficult for her to get away to stalk people without suspicians being raised by the people who work for her.  I guess she could throw compulsion at them, but why bother?  Why not portray a reclusive researcher, a job she is very familiar with, that has a reputation for being a loner with no friends?  I think the librarian seems far more likely.  

[Rocky_Outcrop]

I'm pretty sure its not Messy that says she's AS but someone else, RJ liked to write as if the people in his world get things wrong. Messy might have said "I'm just chilling in the White Tower, Brosef" and upon over hearing that Grendypops could have said "She's masquerading as an AS".

 

Buttt.... because RJ said we could have figured it out I think it is the case that she is indeed an AS and that it is possible to figure it out. I wont be doing the figuring though, I'll leave that to you guys who have read the books more and more recently than I have.

 

I do think that what is said above re Dannilips is probably true.

[Mr Ares]

I honestly don't see any one that has come any where close to an argument that Messy is some one other than Danelle.  When I heard that RJ said that we should have figured it out by COT, this was the exact piece of evidence that led me to believe it was Danelle.  Think about the chaos she sowed in the tower by having a key role in the overthrow of Siuan.  Danelle also KNEW there would be fighting, likely because she started the whole thing. What random librarian suddenly takes an interest in the overthrow of the Amyrlin?  So much so that she places TROOPS IN DISGUISE in the Tower just in case there was fighting?   

 

The rest of the evidence (brown dress, blue eyes, her researcher background, no friends, and that she's posing as Aes Sedai) is all circumstancial- but it all fits.  This is the answer.

 

Where exactly do you get the "fact" that she is posing as Aes Sedai. We have been told that she is in the White Tower and presume that she is am Aes Sedai but for all we know she could be a servant. Further adding up all the chaos that she has helped further I would suggest that Laras (mistress of the kitchens) is as good a candidate as any identified.

TGS Prologue - Graendal is certain Mesaana is an AS (she has spies in the WT). Also, Verin says Laras isn't the sort of person who would swear to Shai'tan.

[bushleague]

I honestly don't see any one that has come any where close to an argument that Messy is some one other than Danelle.  When I heard that RJ said that we should have figured it out by COT, this was the exact piece of evidence that led me to believe it was Danelle.  Think about the chaos she sowed in the tower by having a key role in the overthrow of Siuan.  Danelle also KNEW there would be fighting, likely because she started the whole thing. What random librarian suddenly takes an interest in the overthrow of the Amyrlin?  So much so that she places TROOPS IN DISGUISE in the Tower just in case there was fighting?    

 

The rest of the evidence (brown dress, blue eyes, her researcher background, no friends, and that she's posing as Aes Sedai) is all circumstancial- but it all fits.  This is the answer.

 

Where exactly do you get the "fact" that she is posing as Aes Sedai. We have been told that she is in the White Tower and presume that she is am Aes Sedai but for all we know she could be a servant. Further adding up all the chaos that she has helped further I would suggest that Laras (mistress of the kitchens) is as good a candidate as any identified.

TGS Prologue - Graendal is certain Mesaana is an AS (she has spies in the WT). Also, Verin says Laras isn't the sort of person who would swear to Shai'tan.

 

Also Laras has been around since New Spring, and although Messy could have killed and recently started impersonating her, to get her mannerisms down that solidly... bit of a stretch.  

 

She has to be AS... alivarian (sp) recognized her when SH showed up and ruined messy's disguise.  That with Graendal's spies telling her that Messy is in fact AS add up.

 

You're right with it being circumstancial, but everything in this series is circumstancial.  With this situtation though we have a good amount of information to go on.

 

EDIT: Also we ran into this same scenario with Semi... the evidence all pointed to Anath, and RJ didn't try to throw us on a false trail in order to get the big "ooohhh!" moment.  He gave us clues and if we figured it out, good for us, and if we didn't, well then it would be a nice surprise.

[moffwolf]

Bushleague/Others,

 

Ashamandragoran had a pretty interesting detail earlier in the thread that I didn't notice or catch in the novel: Danelle was seen wearing a wool dress, not silk.  While this is very minor, I think the type of dress one wears would say a lot about the type of woman she is.  Wool and silk are about as opposite as one could get in the spectrum.  Perhaps this is a red herring, but maybe the analysis firebird, others, and I have done is wrong. 

 

Of course, now that I've finished this post, I realize that this detail actually re-enforces my opinion. Messy is going to be using Mirror of Mists the whole time any way because she still has to look like Danelle in order to do her job.  Having her wear wool would be part of the disguise, as it is something danelle probably did wear as a simple librarian. Thus what dress the person is seen wearing should be a meaningless detail and could only be a red herring.  I'm sticking with Danelle! Some one convince me I'm wrong!!

[wvlr2]

I seriously think that the wool vs silk issue is not that important due to the fact that most the well off female characters in the series have multiple dresses.    Depending on the season and what activities they are planning.    They dress for the plans that they have for that day.    Are the going outside in the cold?    Or are they going for a summer strol?    Or they staying inside where it is warm?    etc.

[WolfDragonFox]

You are correct in this, she is not on the list of BA that Verin gives Egwene obviously all 200+ weren't named but a lot of key ones and ones we've met before for any extent were intentionally named.  This is what i believe is the key to pointing the finger at Danelle.  If you really look at the scenes with her in it she doesn't really do much but listen.  Then Messanna appears to usually Alviarin.  We know she doesnt have the ageless face and she really seems to hold no significance when we actually read what she is doing while being Danelle.  Why show this character so many times doing nothing extraordinary during scenes of importance where everyone else is seeming to contribute.  She has always been my lead suspect and I am more confident in that now more than ever.

[mossman87]

I honestly don't see any one that has come any where close to an argument that Messy is some one other than Danelle.  When I heard that RJ said that we should have figured it out by COT, this was the exact piece of evidence that led me to believe it was Danelle.  Think about the chaos she sowed in the tower by having a key role in the overthrow of Siuan.  Danelle also KNEW there would be fighting, likely because she started the whole thing. What random librarian suddenly takes an interest in the overthrow of the Amyrlin?  So much so that she places TROOPS IN DISGUISE in the Tower just in case there was fighting?    

 

The rest of the evidence (brown dress, blue eyes, her researcher background, no friends, and that she's posing as Aes Sedai) is all circumstancial- but it all fits.  This is the answer.

 

Where exactly do you get the "fact" that she is posing as Aes Sedai. We have been told that she is in the White Tower and presume that she is am Aes Sedai but for all we know she could be a servant. Further adding up all the chaos that she has helped further I would suggest that Laras (mistress of the kitchens) is as good a candidate as any identified.

TGS Prologue - Graendal is certain Mesaana is an AS (she has spies in the WT). Also, Verin says Laras isn't the sort of person who would swear to Shai'tan.

 

Also Laras has been around since New Spring, and although Messy could have killed and recently started impersonating her, to get her mannerisms down that solidly... bit of a stretch.  

 

She has to be AS... alivarian (sp) recognized her when SH showed up and ruined messy's disguise.  That with Graendal's spies telling her that Messy is in fact AS add up.

 

You're right with it being circumstancial, but everything in this series is circumstancial.  With this situtation though we have a good amount of information to go on.

 

EDIT: Also we ran into this same scenario with Semi... the evidence all pointed to Anath, and RJ didn't try to throw us on a false trail in order to get the big "ooohhh!" moment.  He gave us clues and if we figured it out, good for us, and if we didn't, well then it would be a nice surprise.

 

 

I like the idea that Laras is associated with the Kin somehow, there's definitely something up with her, after that scene with Egwene in the kitchen.

[Firebird]

Why show this character so many times doing nothing extraordinary during scenes of importance where everyone else is seeming to contribute.  She has always been my lead suspect and I am more confident in that now more than ever.

This is an excellent point. Danelle keeps cropping up acting innocuously, then something big happens.

 

I seriously think that the wool vs silk issue is not that important due to the fact that most the well off female characters in the series have multiple dresses.    Depending on the season and what activities they are planning.    They dress for the plans that they have for that day.    Are the going outside in the cold?    Or are they going for a summer strol?    Or they staying inside where it is warm?    etc.

Agreed! Shooting down the theory based on the material of a dress doesn't hold much water in my opinion.

 

I like the idea that Laras is associated with the Kin somehow, there's definitely something up with her, after that scene with Egwene in the kitchen.

I like this idea, I think you're correct. That's twice that we know of where Laras has helped people, and given that she's been in the kitchens for at least 20 years, how many others might she have helped in that time. I like Laras and am glad Verin basically confirmed that she isn't a darkfriend. The idea of Mesaana as Laras never seemed even remotely plausible to me.

 

Slightly off topic, but I love that bit when Laras is helping Min, Siuan and Leane escape and Min asks her why she is helping them. Laras says she was a bit of a wild one in her youth and was nearly hanged once! I'd love to know more about Laras, I really like her as a character (for the little we've seen of her).

[moffwolf]

I think the difference between wearing a silk dress vs. wool dress WHILE ONE IS IN THE TOWER is very significant. Weather doesn't change much inside; what Aes Sedai wear there typically reflect the clothing they're most comfortable in.  A person who usually wears silk does not go around wearing wool another day. 

 

My point is that in the argument about what kind/color dress Danelle is seen wearing is irrelevant.  Messy is using an illusion any way and that illusion includes the dress. 

[lillcheese]

Messy is using an illusion any way and that illusion includes the dress. 

 

I thought Alviarin broke or saw through the illusion when she touched the dress.  I think she would know the difference between wool and silk by feel at least.

[moffwolf]

She broke through the illusion and the real thing was silk. That is definitely what Messy wears. . .underneath her disguise.  Whomever she is disuised as could be wearing any thing. 

[BurningChrome]

When Egwene swears the 3 oaths, and then goes on to tell the rebels they have to re-swear, she starts off by saying

"We will each in turn use the Oath Rod to release ourselves from the Three Oaths, then reswear them in turn"

 

It only mentions that Egwene had "resworn every sister in the Tower on the Oath Rod"

 

If we assume she followed the same procedure, she would have asked Messy to remove the 3 Oaths, then set about reswearing them.

 

I think Messy Could get around any problems with this my having sworn additional Oaths on the Rod. These would not have been removed when they removed the three Oaths.

 

She could have sworn "I will no longer consider myself a Darkfriend"

or "I will not be bound by the Oath rod again"

 

any number of Oaths really would do it. This also 'gets around the oath rod' which was mentions by BS.

 

Also I thought I read BS stated forsaken would have a hard time swearing they were not darkfriends. This implies they Could do it, but would need to be clever. I think pre-oaths would fit in nicely.

 

[OHurley]

Does anyone know of any reason why Amylia cannot be Mesaana? Let's look at this- she's only briefly mentioned a couple of times. Physically, she's EXACTLY in line with how Mesaana has been depicted. Blue eyes, broze silk dress, bosomy. Furthermore, she's a Brown AND she actually VOLUNTEERED to work with the Sea Folk. That would be a brilliant strategic move for the Chosen because presumably no one has infiltrated them, and Demandred certainly couldn't and he's the only unaccounted for Chosen. SO- the Amylia as Mesaana theory satisfies the physical/aesthetic requirements, actually gives a Forsaken (who can Travel) control of the WT in addition to the PERFECT opportunity to stay well away from the Tower and manipulate from the Shadows (which we know is her style), and if she's lucky, spread some chaos among the Atha'an Miere. Works perfectly for me.

[1eejit]

If someone says one thing while thinking another during an Oath Road binding, which will count for the purposes of the Oath?

[Eleint]

Doubtful, as they were used to bind criminals in the AoL.  Wouldn't work very well as a criminal binder if the criminal could just think out of it.

 

Remember that Mesaana was a researcher in the AoL.  She probably knows how the ter'angreal -works-.  I'm sure she knows any loopholes in its structure itself.

[1eejit]

But which? The spoken? The thought? Both?

[OHurley]

Yeah, I think the Oath works through the actual words spoken. Cant defeat it by thinking differently.

 

The whole "Egwene rebound everyone in the Tower and still didnt' find Mesaana" fits the idea that she's out of the Tower. Which in turn fits the Amylia-is-Mesaana theory.

 

Any thoughts?

[OHurley]

It's important to note that the easiest explanation that satisfies all known contingencies is most likely the correct explanation. Mesaana wouldn't NEED a magical mystery loophole in the oath rod because she's NOT in the Tower.

 

Sure Verin can confirm that Mesaana is in the Tower. She IS. By Traveling there from the Sea Folk. Guys and Gals, this just makes too dang sense. PLEASE, someone SHOOT IT DOWN. I wanna know if there's something I'm missing here...

 

:)

[1eejit]

The Sea Folk don't seem like a good place for any Forsaken to be based imo. They travel too much, their leaders are generally too spread out to influence easily, promotion through the ranks seems slow and strictly controlled.

[OHurley]

leejit-

 

That's the thing- it would be the perfect place to HIDE. She's "Aes Sedai". She's got a perfectly acceptable reason to be there and a perfectly good reason to simply sit back and scheme, as the Sea Folk will neither expect her nor even allow her take an active role in their governing. I mean, Mesaana is smart, if she can find a way to control them, she will, but that aside, a Sea Folk vessel or island is the perfect place for her to hide. She would most likely never be found. Especially with things in the Tower heating up and swinging back in favor of the Light. Mesaana, if she IS Amylia, got out just in time, basically.

[1eejit]

A vessel certainly isn't an ideal hiding place. Travelling to and from moving objects would be tricky at least, impossible at worst.

If she isn't going to take an active role in governing and simply wants to have a base to hide and travel to TV once in a while she could just camp out on some farm somewhere.

[millnoc]

Keep in mind that Egwene went to grab the Oath Rod, swore all rebel sisters.  At that point the BA in the tower found out that the jig was up and fled.  Yet Mesaana did not.  This implies that she knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that she could hide or get around the Oath Rod.  You could chalk this up to her being from the AoL, but if I remember correctly, the BWB never mentioned anything about her interacting with criminals.

 

I for do think she's Danelle, but I'm not confident in it, there just seem to be too many small discrepancies - the wool/silk, the fact that she knows she'll be safe from the rod.

[OHurley]

How do we actually KNOW that Mesaana is actually LIVING in the Tower? Has that been confirmed??? We know that she's behind all that chaos for sure and that she's taken a very active role in controlling the Tower and BA. BUT, how do we KNOW she's actually living there?

 

And also- why would a vessel be a bad place to hide? She just needs to know what her room on the vessel looks like to Travel from there and back. And besides- who's gonna be interrupting an Aes Sedai if she asks not be disturbed? She's an academic, so she might actually have a passing interest in actually just studying the Sea Folk. Either way, it gets her out of sight and physically out of the Tower.

[Declan]

i am gonna have to go back and re-read the books and concentrate on figuring out who Mesaana could possibly be, but i do not think she would be aboard a Seafolk vessel. doesnt make sense. I can understand her not staying in the WT at all times (just go to her room, lock it, and travel somewhere) but i think at those times she is meeting with other forsaken or organizing DFs.