Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

I think the agelessness disappears after the oaths are removed. It may be fast if the channeler is stilled like Suian. Or it could be gradual. The agelessness takes some years to happen anyway. A new AS doesn't look ageless.

But we've never actually seen someone remove the oaths and hang around long enough without immediately retaking some oath to know if the agelessness disappears. Maybe Messi can just go into TaR immediately after that and remove the oaths using a "shadow"Oath Rod. 

But she must have defeated the OR if she's still in the tower.

 

[WolfDragonFox]

Well no thats not quite right, she doesn't get the agelessness from taking the oaths right away, no matter how long she has been working with the power, it is still a gradual thing.  So she could just pretend to remove them and wince like its uncomfortable, then take them, thinking of herself as Chosen and the Dark One is the Great Lord so that would in her mind make her a Greatfriend or something like this.  So in this scenario which seems likely, she as Danelle (or whoever she is as AS  in other opinions) she could easily get around the re-oathing.  Which like I said before and others have pointed out, in a Q&A BS says this is a possibility if someone doesn't consider themselves what others would consider them.

[Crael123]

She probably could have used Mask of Mirrors to make it appear like she had the look

[Sab]

If she fled the tower during the attack all she would have to do is gateway right back after.  If the DO doesn't give you permission to leave you don't go.  Doubt she will disobey him again.  Yes others have posed as a servant before but not in a place where it was so easy to get caught.  In the white tower you would want a position where if someone saw you channeling you could without question.  A novie or accepted is out of the question since she would still have to sit through classes, which I can't see her doing.

[wumpus]

If she fled the tower during the attack all she would have to do is gateway right back after.  If the DO doesn't give you permission to leave you don't go.  Doubt she will disobey him again.   Yes others have posed as a servant before but not in a place where it was so easy to get caught.  In the white tower you would want a position where if someone saw you channeling you could without question.  A novie or accepted is out of the question since she would still have to sit through classes, which I can't see her doing.

 

You know, given the chosen-aren't-so-awesome trend lately, it would be nice to see a Mesaana / Seachan confront.

 

"Your name will be fluffy-bunny-kins, fluffy-bunny-kins will be a good damane"

 

Mesaana busts out blood-swapping weave she learned from Semi

 

"gurgle gurgle gurgle"

[Sharaman]

Just a thought about procedure.

Egwene ordered everyone to retake the three oaths after releasing the previous set of oaths.

Well, there could be a loophole there in that it's not mentioned what the wording of the release was.

Would it be " I forswear all previous oaths?" (including oaths taken to GLoD but not on the Oath Rod)

Or "I forswear all oaths I've taken on the Rod?" (meaning zero for a Messaana)

Or what?

There could be wiggle room there for Messaana and by extension, maybe for any other smart BA sister.

Must be noted that most sisters (Black or not) are very good at verbal logic since they have to find their way around the oaths all the time.

 

[cleantoe]

Mesaana isn't posing as a servant or a novice or anything else less than Aes Sedai.

 

Verin says clearly that one of the Chosen is posing as an AES SEDAI. She is very "thorough". You could argue that Mesaana did a mask of mirrors and blah blah blah but sometimes you gotta take things at face value. The parsimonious answer is usually the correct one.

 

She is posing as Aes Sedai in the tower and who she is is unknown.

 

I'd wager she's still in the tower somewhere. She probably will swear the oaths and then unswear them later. What is a darkfriend anyways? She's a CHOSEN, so she could probably say she's not a "darkfriend" and get away with it without lying.

[wumpus]

Mesaana isn't posing as a servant or a novice or anything else less than Aes Sedai.

 

Verin says clearly that one of the Chosen is posing as an AES SEDAI. She is very "thorough". You could argue that Mesaana did a mask of mirrors and blah blah blah but sometimes you gotta take things at face value. The parsimonious answer is usually the correct one.

 

She is posing as Aes Sedai in the tower and who she is is unknown.

 

I'd wager she's still in the tower somewhere. She probably will swear the oaths and then unswear them later. What is a darkfriend anyways? She's a CHOSEN, so she could probably say she's not a "darkfriend" and get away with it without lying.

 

There's also the possibility she knows more about the functioning of binders and could fake swearing on the oath rod.

[thewalrus777]

Mesaana isn't posing as a servant or a novice or anything else less than Aes Sedai.

 

Verin says clearly that one of the Chosen is posing as an AES SEDAI. She is very "thorough". You could argue that Mesaana did a mask of mirrors and blah blah blah but sometimes you gotta take things at face value. The parsimonious answer is usually the correct one.

 

She is posing as Aes Sedai in the tower and who she is is unknown.

 

I'd wager she's still in the tower somewhere. She probably will swear the oaths and then unswear them later. What is a darkfriend anyways? She's a CHOSEN, so she could probably say she's not a "darkfriend" and get away with it without lying.

 

There's also the possibility she knows more about the functioning of binders and could fake swearing on the oath rod.

 

This is true considering she was a researcher and teacher in the AoL. If any of the Forsaken were to know a way around the OR, it would either be her or Lanfear.

[Shazzai]

In TGS Verin specifically states one of the oaths that the BA swear.  It is, "I swear not to betray the Great Lord, to keep my secrets until the hour of my death."  She is able to betray her secrets because she believes/knows she has less than an hour to live.

 

That makes it exceptionally clear that any oath with a loophole allows a simple method of avoiding its 'bite'.  We already knew that from the AS oaths though.  They can use the OP as a weapon in certain circumstances.

 

"Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth" I vow XXXXXXXXXX.

 

"Under the Light", just means, "With the Light as my witness."  It has no binding power as part of the oath.

 

The second part makes it an either-or statement.  "Either I will obey this oath, or I give up my chances at salvation or rebirth."  It is NOT an absolute statement that you will obey the vow.  This is the loophole I believe Mesaana made use of.  She has NO HOPE of salvation and BELIEVES that as one of the Chosen, she will live forever, negating any need for or hope of rebirth.  Galina probably wishes she knew more about how the OR's work. ;D

 

I think that ANY of the AS who swore the oath in that fashion can ignore them by simply giving up all hope of salvation and rebirth.  Any who swore the shorter form that Egwene used, "I vow to XXXXXXX" without any limiting statements, cannot.

 

[Sharaman]

Brandon more or less confirms that Egwene's speculation that Messi can bypass the rod are correct.

She may be able to do it through verbal logic-chopping, using conditionals in the AS oaths as we've all suggested. Or she may know a more generic way around the Rod.

Suspect this will be a RAFO.

 

 

[Bobbun]

I have a different opinion on the meaning of "by my hope of salvation and rebirth".  I don't see that as a condition on the oath, but rather as naming a forfeit.  I agree with "With the Light as my witness" as the interpretation of Under the Light, though.  So my full interpretation is:  "With the Light as my witness and forfeiting my hope of salvation and rebirth should I violate this oath, I vow..."  The form is basically meaningless on the Oath rod since literal violations of the oath are not possible, but it's customary and used anyway.  I don't think it works as an escape hatch, though.  "With the Dark as my witness and forfeiting my hope of enjoying broccoli and liver dishes, I vow..." would still be binding regardless of whether the oath taker followed the light or the dark, and whether the user enjoyed broccoli and liver in the first place.

 

That said, I think Mesaana will be able to get around the oath rod due to special knowledge, not due to wording tricks.  At least, I'll be disappointed if it's wording tricks or nuances of meaning.  Too bad we can't eliminate such tricks up front...  Egwene should have insisted on the most literal form of the oaths, followed by "For the record, please state your birth name and that you are not and never have been sworn to the Dark One."

[WolfDragonFox]

That is a nice take Bobbun, I like that and it seems very plausible, but as far as being much more literal, I agree this is the case but the DO is not what DF's call him they call him Great Lord so I see it as hard to get completely around wordplay.

[Sharaman]

I have a different opinion on the meaning of "by my hope of salvation and rebirth".  I don't see that as a condition on the oath, but rather as naming a forfeit.  I agree with "With the Light as my witness" as the interpretation of Under the Light, though.  So my full interpretation is:  "With the Light as my witness and forfeiting my hope of salvation and rebirth should I violate this oath, I vow..."  The form is basically meaningless on the Oath rod since literal violations of the oath are not possible, but it's customary and used anyway.  I don't think it works as an escape hatch, though.  "With the Dark as my witness and forfeiting my hope of enjoying broccoli and liver dishes, I vow..." would still be binding regardless of whether the oath taker followed the light or the dark, and whether the user enjoyed broccoli and liver in the first place.

 

That said, I think Mesaana will be able to get around the oath rod due to special knowledge, not due to wording tricks.  At least, I'll be disappointed if it's wording tricks or nuances of meaning.  Too bad we can't eliminate such tricks up front...  Egwene should have insisted on the most literal form of the oaths, followed by "For the record, please state your birth name and that you are not and never have been sworn to the Dark One."

 

You're right that the light/ dark as witness bit is meaningless. Example: Galina is forced to swear her oath of obedience to Therava and Sevanna "Under the Light, blah-blah" and she even thinks that the oath is binding even though she has long abandoned the Light and has no hope of Salvation. 

 

[Shazzai]

I think the forfeit or conditional is VERY important to the function of the OR.

 

And Galina DOES have hope of salvation.  She still hopes that someone will save her from Therava.  If she ever completely gives up hope of rescue (and assuming she doesn't hope to be reborn) she should be able to act in opposition to the oath she took to Therava.

[Carteeg_Struve]

My personal (crazy) theory on how Mesaana got around the Oath Rod is by altering her own memories, making herself a 'sleeper agent'. She'll wake up from time to time to do what she wants to do in full Foresaken mode, but at all other times she actually believes herself to truly be her disguise.

 

This way when asked after being (re)bound to the Oath Rod, her false persona answers truthfully... as far as she knows.

[Taura-Tierno]

That said, I think Mesaana will be able to get around the oath rod due to special knowledge, not due to wording tricks.  At least, I'll be disappointed if it's wording tricks or nuances of meaning.  Too bad we can't eliminate such tricks up front...  Egwene should have insisted on the most literal form of the oaths, followed by "For the record, please state your birth name and that you are not and never have been sworn to the Dark One."

 

I agree. Couldn't Mesaana just have said "I am not Black Ajah?" IIRC, the Black Ajah hunters stated the same things in different words, i.e. "I am not a darkfriend"/"I am not Black Ajah". For ordinary Black Aes Sedai, that distinction would be meaninless. I do, however, believe that a forsaken i still a darkfriend, although highranking ones, and could not under an oath state that they are not - but I doubt that Mesaana considers herself Black, and truthfully, if she hasn't been initiated as one, she isn't. That's a significant loophole.

 

I always thought that Egwene should have made everyone say "I am not a darkfriend. I am not Black Ajah. I am not, nor have I ever been, in the service of the Dark One." That wouldn't leave much of a loophole, right?

 

That aside, what about Mesaana changing undercover identity? You know, letting her current identity be noted as "disappeared", then just killing and entering the life of another Aes Sedai, who had already sworn not to be a darkfriend? Maybe a bit of a bother, but it's possible.

[Sharaman]

She could also perhaps have kept her secret ID alive somewhere (I mean the AS she is impersonating) and got the real AS to retake the oath (under heavy compulsion of course).

That would work if her secret ID wasn't BA herself.

Assuming Messi has kept the woman alive.

 

 

[Taura-Tierno]

Mesaana must be very strong in the power (compared to the average sister). When she appears in Sheriam's tent to demand that she hand over the dream ter'anngreal, Sheriam thinks to herself "What strength". Remember Sheriam has been around Nyn and Sharina (and Egwene of course), so Messy must be much stronger than them.

 

I love the idea of one of the Blood Knives killing Messy in mistake for a regular sister, though I just don't think it will be that easy. Egwene, as the leader, must be a target.

 

Just because Sheriam gets all "woow, what strength" it doesn't mean that Mesaana is stronger than Nynaeve or stronger than Sharina could be. Just because she's met one person who is stronger than the strongest Aes Sedai by an insane amount, doesn't mean you're not impressed when somebody else who is that much stronger appears before you (especially not if it's a Forsaken and you're a darkfriend). And I doubt that any comparison with Nynaeve was the first thought that crossed Sheriam's mind when Mesaana appeared.

 

Also, the ability to determine another channeller's strength is limited, and not very exact. It might be easy for Sheriam gauge another ordinary Sister's strength, because she's accustomed to those levels of strenth, e.g. "Oh, that's as strong as Myrelle or Anaiya ... that's like Romanda or Lelaine" etc. But she has only (as far as we know?) met one person who is waaaaay above every other Aes Sedai, including Egwene and Elayne. Sharina has the potential to be stronger, but she isn't. So would it really be so easy for Sheriam to measure Mesaana's strength AND compare it to Nynaeve's? She might know that both are incredibly stronger than herself, but without having both present to actually compare, it might be very difficult for her to be certain, since she's definitely not used to people who are that strong. Is she really able to say "Nynaeve is 547 points stronger in saidar than me, and Mesaana is Y points stronger than me", or is more like "Nynaeve is much, much stronger, and so is Mesaana."?

 

[sumquy]

I think it is important to remember that the Black Ajah is an organization, not an idea. Contrast that with a darkfriend who is literally a friend of the dark, but not neccesarily part of any specific group or structure. I think that Messana could truthfully swear that she is not Black Ajah because she isn't, but I don't think she could swear that she wasn't a darkfriend.

[StefanR]

^^ Except that Lanfear believed that she wasn't a darkfriend, making your argument obselete

[Sharaman]

A Friend of the Dark is also a member of an organisation, who has sworn specific oaths to GLoD. There are specific rankings - Cully the beggar is boss of the EbouDar DF Chapter, Delana (?) thinks that even a Lord would bow to a beggar with a higher rank, and Kadere thinks of Asmo as a high-ranked DF.

Fain can actually see a mark on FotD.

Shadowspawn can see specific marks on the Chosen. Those marks are not the same since SS must obey Chosen but they can even eat FotD as in TGH. The Chosen have sworn different oaths to GLoD, and bathed in his radiance at Shayol Ghul.

Hence Messi is not a FotD, she's a Chosen.

Like Lanfear said contemptuously to Mat, Messi may be able to swear she is not a DF.

 

[Taura-Tierno]

I've seen people claim that either BS or RJ has stated that Mesaana could not say "I'm no darkfriend" if she cannot lie. But I think someone mentioned previously in this thread that BS said the opposite. Anyone's got a quote?

 

Either way, where did Lanfear reliably claim that she is not a darkfriend? If you're thinking about her meeting with Mat, then that's hardly proof. She might just as well have been lying to him.

[thewalrus777]

The Chosen only think of themselves as Chosen. They will never believe to be anything otherwise. Not Forsaken, BA, or DF. They only refer to themselves as CHOSEN. Thus making them be able to get around any oath in regards to lying, if they are asked if they are Forsaken, BA, or DF. Remember an Aes Sedai can unwittingly tell a lie if what she says, she believes to be true. And that's with swearing on the OR. Not to mention the twisting of words. If Aes Sedai can get around the oaths in a fashion, then the Chosen most certainly can. Not to mention they have more knowledge about those numbered ter'angreal, than those "child" Aes Sedai do.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Although I thought the whole thing with Verin and the hour of death was the worst part of the entire series outside of the incredibly boring adventure with luca's circus i will not hold that against bs. If messy uses pedantics like the rediculous verin and gets around the rod like that ill be so annoyed. Could someone please have an idea which is good? If it turns out she gets away with it by not thinking of herself a DF she will no longer be able to claim tobe AS. Any AS who says 'im as' is not messy