Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[Declan]

if i was Mesaana, i would not be scared of Alviarin. Messy could totally take her. but i would watch out for Shaidar Haran.

 

Moridin may step in as well, as you have suggested. i wonder, is SH subservient to Moridin or are they equals...?

[jemron]

You know, there's an outside possibility that Egwene won't have to deal with Mesaana, because the Dark One (in the form of Shaidar Haran) will do it for her. Mesaana's job was to sow dissension in the ranks and break the White Tower. She's made an almighty eff up of that. She's already in trouble with the DO and has had a rather unpleasant visit from SH. And now the Tower is united, the Black Ajah are dead or scattered, and even Alviarin wants to kill her. Messy's in BIG trouble. Maybe SH will show up at Alviarin's pad one night and tell her to go kill Danelle (or whoever is your fav choice for Messy's identity). Next day, the Sisters find a body who kinda looks like Danelle (or whoever) and put two and two together.

 

Given that Egwene always gets to be the hero, it's more likely that she'll hunt her down and totally bitch slap her, but if I were Messy right now, I'd be seriously watching my back. The only thing that may save her is that the Dark One's minions are rather thin on the ground and he may want to save what's left. I reckon by the end of the book, she'll either be dead (killed by Eg, SH or Alviarin) or mind-trapped by Moridin or SH. I don't see her still being around for the Last Battle.

 

This is an interesting point.  Of all of the Forsaken, Mesaana has actually seemed to be the most worthless.  All of her plans seem to have failed... though we don't know all of her previous plans I suppose.  Maybe Asmodean would be considered even more worthless than Mesaana, but his plans to tattoo Couladin and all that was actually pretty brilliant.  Unfortunately for him, Lanfear was not on his side, so he lost.

[Firebird]

if i was Mesaana, i would not be scared of Alviarin. Messy could totally take her. but i would watch out for Shaidar Haran.

 

Moridin may step in as well, as you have suggested. i wonder, is SH subservient to Moridin or are they equals...?

I know that Mesaana is stronger in the power than Alviarin, but SH might be there to block Messy and get Alviarin to actually do the deed for him. (Maybe he doesn't want to get his hands dirty with trashy Forsaken types).

 

I'm not sure who's in charge between SH and Moridin. If SH is the Dark One's avatar, then he basically acts directly for the the DO, whereas Moridin is just his most trusted adviser. However I believe BS did say that SH has some limitations (like when he had to get Elza to open Caddy's box to get the male a'dam) so presumably Moridin has some advantages over SH. I think it's a tough one to call and all depends just how much of the DO is in SH, if you see what I mean. It would make an interesting Celebrity Death Match though, (along with one I read about in another thread, namely Fain vs SH - I really like the sound of THAT one!)

[b9anders]

I'm not sure who's in charge between SH and Moridin. If SH is the Dark One's avatar, then he basically acts directly for the the DO, whereas Moridin is just his most trusted adviser. However I believe BS did say that SH has some limitations (like when he had to get Elza to open Caddy's box to get the male a'dam) so presumably Moridin has some advantages over SH. I think it's a tough one to call and all depends just how much of the DO is in SH, if you see what I mean. It would make an interesting Celebrity Death Match though, (along with one I read about in another thread, namely Fain vs SH - I really like the sound of THAT one!)

 

IIRC, we have only ever seen SH engaging with darkfriends and forsaken. I don't think he has much power over anyone who is not sworn to the dark. I reckon he needs others to influence the non-dark people in the world.

[Shaidar]

^ Agreed with above.

 

Mesaana will end up under a cour'souvra, dead, or on the run by the end of ToM.

[1eejit]

I'm not sure who's in charge between SH and Moridin. If SH is the Dark One's avatar, then he basically acts directly for the the DO, whereas Moridin is just his most trusted adviser. However I believe BS did say that SH has some limitations (like when he had to get Elza to open Caddy's box to get the male a'dam) so presumably Moridin has some advantages over SH. I think it's a tough one to call and all depends just how much of the DO is in SH, if you see what I mean. It would make an interesting Celebrity Death Match though, (along with one I read about in another thread, namely Fain vs SH - I really like the sound of THAT one!)

 

IIRC, we have only ever seen SH engaging with darkfriends and forsaken. I don't think he has much power over anyone who is not sworn to the dark. I reckon he needs others to influence the non-dark people in the world.

 

Probably right, though I like the theory that Rand's channeling of the TP making him vulnerable to SH's tricks is the unfortunate side-effect.

[Crael123]

she is either dead, will die in the next book, or is the kitchen lady who always helps people escape dnt remember her name. her story line no longer is relevent now that the WT is all wrapped up. anywho, she was always second rate and won't come back.

[Sharaman]

Egwene is in a very messy situation until she locates Messy and the four Bloodknives wandering around the Tower at will.

She doesn't know about the B-K and she can't afford to ignore the Messy situation either.

So, much excitement could occur. Interesting though that not a single Seanchan raider was captured, even grievously wounded ones that needed healing.

That plotline is definitely not dead yet.

Mind, I have this bizarre vision of Superfade wandering in to read the Riot Act to Messy just as the Bloodknives creep up on her--

 

[WolfDragonFox]

This is an interesting point.  Of all of the Forsaken, Mesaana has actually seemed to be the most worthless.  All of her plans seem to have failed... though we don't know all of her previous plans I suppose.  Maybe Asmodean would be considered even more worthless than Mesaana, but his plans to tattoo Couladin and all that was actually pretty brilliant.  Unfortunately for him, Lanfear was not on his side, so he lost.

 

Wow I couldn't disagree more!  Messaana in my eyes has been the most effective vessel of the shadow to this point.  If you look at it in terms of Tangible actions and long scenes with cool fighting then that is a sad and unfair way of looking at it IMO.  She is the one who set in motion most of the harsh events that Almost Destroyed both Rand and The White Tower.  No forsaken has succeed as much as they wanted to in their plans yet because something has always come up to block things from going too fare but Messaana is completely responsible for deposing Siuan/raising Elaida and instructing all the evil deeds fro Alviarin to do, which led to his being afraid of boxes, LTT coming on even stronger and his plummet into almost complete detachment from any human emotion including love and trust.  You say worthless I say your CRAZY! Messy is the most influential forsaken by far and someone needs to give that girl a Klondike Bar.

[1eejit]

Yeah Messy has gone done good (though imo Graendal has been at least as successful) - except it's hard to tell how much of the Tower Misrule can be put down to her rather than normal Black Ajah + Fain.

[OHurley]

I'm inclined to agree with WolfDragonFox. Mesaana has without doubt been one of the top 3 forsaken. I mean there's Moridin who's orchestrating all of it, so he'd naturally be #1. There's Semirhage, who may have ultimately failed, but not before she almost conquered half the known world with the Seanchan Empire, and then there's Mesaana who probably did more to personally hurt Rand al'Thor (with the box and all that came with that), and more to stimey the Aes Sedai than any other character, bar none. One can also make a claim that Demandred should be up there too. We don't know exactly what he's doing, but I think everyone agrees that when his shit hits the fan, it's gonna be bad...

 

[jemron]

This is an interesting point.  Of all of the Forsaken, Mesaana has actually seemed to be the most worthless.  All of her plans seem to have failed... though we don't know all of her previous plans I suppose.  Maybe Asmodean would be considered even more worthless than Mesaana, but his plans to tattoo Couladin and all that was actually pretty brilliant.  Unfortunately for him, Lanfear was not on his side, so he lost.

 

Wow I couldn't disagree more!  Messaana in my eyes has been the most effective vessel of the shadow to this point.  If you look at it in terms of Tangible actions and long scenes with cool fighting then that is a sad and unfair way of looking at it IMO.  She is the one who set in motion most of the harsh events that Almost Destroyed both Rand and The White Tower.  No forsaken has succeed as much as they wanted to in their plans yet because something has always come up to block things from going too fare but Messaana is completely responsible for deposing Siuan/raising Elaida and instructing all the evil deeds fro Alviarin to do, which led to his being afraid of boxes, LTT coming on even stronger and his plummet into almost complete detachment from any human emotion including love and trust.  You say worthless I say your CRAZY! Messy is the most influential forsaken by far and someone needs to give that girl a Klondike Bar.

 

Dude, I totally forgot about the whole "Rand in a box" thing.  Of course that was Mesaana!  Ok, you're right.  Mesaana may have not performed as admirably lately, but she isn't completely worthless.  As a matter of fact, she isn't worthless at all.  My judgement was based on her latest lack of achievements.

 

Here is an off-the-top-of-my-head list of what I can remember of Mesaana's "efforts" to let the Lord of Chaos rule:

 

Rand controlled by Tower = Achieved by half (Rand escaped from the box, so this could be considered a failure)

Siuan Deposed = Achieved

Elaida Raised and Controlled = Achieved by half (Alviarin eventually lost her authority, but Elaida continued to be crazy...  So, achieved by 3/4ths)

Tower divided = Achieved

Fight at Cleansing = Failed

Tower kept apart = Failed

Keeping the Black Ajah secret = Failed (The Purge Happened, though this isn't necessarily Mesaana's fault)

Beat the Oath Rod and stayed in Tower = Achieved (This hasn't happened on screen, but BS said that she is still in the Tower.)

 

Anything I've missed?

 

I think that Rand in the box was huge, but it ultimately failed just like most of her other efforts.  So, I take it back, she's not the most worthless Forsaken, but still a failure just like all of them in most respects.

 

[OHurley]

"It's al'Thor in a box."

 

Step One

Go get a big box

 

Step Two

Put al'Thor in that box

 

Step Three

Don't ever open the box

 

It's al'Thor in a box!

 

lol.....

 

Sorry, quote above just reminded me of that Justin Timberlake thing from SNL...

[jemron]

"It's al'Thor in a box."

 

Step One

Go get a big box

 

Step Two

Put al'Thor in that box

 

Step Three

Don't ever open the box

 

It's al'Thor in a box!

 

lol.....

 

Sorry, quote above just reminded me of that Justin Timberlake thing from SNL...

 

lol.

[wumpus]

Egwene is in a very messy situation until she locates Messy and the four Bloodknives wandering around the Tower at will.

She doesn't know about the B-K and she can't afford to ignore the Messy situation either.

So, much excitement could occur. Interesting though that not a single Seanchan raider was captured, even grievously wounded ones that needed healing.

That plotline is definitely not dead yet.

Mind, I have this bizarre vision of Superfade wandering in to read the Riot Act to Messy just as the Bloodknives creep up on her--

 

 

Do you think the blood knives are going to be a big deal? Up until now we've seen the seachan being an unstoppable force. Well organised, channelers with war magic, etc. Then comes Eg. She uses the advantages of the Aes Sedai that the Seachan don't have - e.g. sa`angreal and a linked circle. She blasts the crap out of their army which may have killed some of the blood knives, is unshieldable because of the amount of saidar she held, and starts releasing the domane right and left thus neutralizing them. Then we have Siuan healing the bloodknife poison which seemed a non-issue. The empress was so certain the raid was going to pwn the white tower, and it went horrendously for them with a divided tower. Now the tower has been reunited and, for the first time in centuries, the Ajah will be working together like sisters instead of strangers under Eg's leadership. I'm banking on a return to the kind of WT that thrones bowed to, and the bloodknives and seachan are going to get an unpleasant surprise.

 

Mesaana unveiled and shielded by Eg in front of the full hall, by herself would be beyond spectacular and a token of the new direction her leadership will take the WT in. The ajah heads said it themselves, they were raising an amyrlin of strength. Think about her, she's almost inconceivably young, and is going to rule as amyrlin for centuries as BFFs with an Aes Sedai queen of two (or more) countries. She's been eating her fiber.

[OHurley]

"She's been eating her fiber."

 

LMAO

 

In all seriousness, how AWESOME would it be to see Eggy unmask Mesaana, lay down some serious pownage in front of the whole hall, and just make Messy her bitch. Fingers crossed, like.

[Sharaman]

Big deal or not, they're unresolved plot elements and how they're taken care of is likely to be kind of important.

Eg doesn't even know about the Bloodknives - they're like super-powered Gray men from the description. According to BS's Q&A session they're still very much around and they could quietly start bumping people off. Healing poison is all very well but that was the last resort for a dying BK. if AS start getting their heads cut off while sleeping, ---

Messy. too - there is no way Eg's plotline moves further on, without taking care of her.

Messy is, in person, stronger than Egwene or anyone else currently in the WT, as well as smarter with the weaves, so unless Eg manages to trap her with cunning, the Amyrlin could end up dead.

How she does it is likely to be a key part of ToM.

 

[OHurley]

Sharaman-

 

Actually, I don't think Mesaana was THAT strong in the Power. Egwene is like a fusion power plant of saidar. Sure Mesaana is stronger than nearly every other AS, but I doubt she's much stronger than Egwene, Aviendha, or *especially* Nynaeve or Alivia (yes I know she's not AS, but still...)

 

Actually, I bet that Nynaeve and Alivia are stronger than virtually all the Forsaken. Except old school Lanfear.

[Crael123]

"It's al'Thor in a box."

 

Step One

Go get a big box

 

Step Two

Put al'Thor in that box

 

Step Three

Don't ever open the box

 

It's al'Thor in a box!

 

lol.....

 

Sorry, quote above just reminded me of that Justin Timberlake thing from SNL...

 

lol amen to that

 

i forgot about the box and that was the most monumental thing that happened to rand thatdrove him nuts but remember that was when LTT started to talk to him so not a total victory

[Firebird]

Big deal or not, they're unresolved plot elements and how they're taken care of is likely to be kind of important.

Eg doesn't even know about the Bloodknives - they're like super-powered Gray men from the description. According to BS's Q&A session they're still very much around and they could quietly start bumping people off. Healing poison is all very well but that was the last resort for a dying BK. if AS start getting their heads cut off while sleeping, ---

Messy. too - there is no way Eg's plotline moves further on, without taking care of her.

Messy is, in person, stronger than Egwene or anyone else currently in the WT, as well as smarter with the weaves, so unless Eg manages to trap her with cunning, the Amyrlin could end up dead.

How she does it is likely to be a key part of ToM.

 

 

I agree with you that the Blood Knives are going to be trouble. I feel that whole scene where one attacked Siuan and Gareth Byrne in TGS was really just setting things up so that you know the kind of stuff they're going to do in the next book. As you say, the Tower doesn't realise that the Blood Knives are amongst them so they won't be cautious (to start with anyway). I think there are going to be a few more dead sisters before the end of the next book.

 

Mesaana must be very strong in the power (compared to the average sister). When she appears in Sheriam's tent to demand that she hand over the dream ter'anngreal, Sheriam thinks to herself "What strength". Remember Sheriam has been around Nyn and Sharina (and Egwene of course), so Messy must be much stronger than them.

 

I love the idea of one of the Blood Knives killing Messy in mistake for a regular sister, though I just don't think it will be that easy. Egwene, as the leader, must be a target.

[Declan]

i am tending to lean to the way that the bloodknives aren't going to be trouble. first off they are only going to be alive for a few days and secondly if gareth byrne could kill one then it should be no prob for the AS. they aren't gray men on steroids.

 

and the above post is correct. Mesaana is much stronger than Egwene. Nynaeve is only barely stronger than Moghedien and she is the weakest of the female forsaken. I think the only person stronger than her that is on the Light's side is Alivia.

[Calderis]

Reading this thread after reading the thread on channeler power is just.... whoa, way backwards. Not sayin anyone's wrong on Mesaana's strength, just sayin, nobody seems to know all that well.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Nynaeve is only barely stronger than Moghedien and she is the weakest of the female forsaken.

 

In The Shadow Rising.  At that time, Nynaeve was NOWHERE near her potential strength.  She is POTENTIALLY possibly stronger than Semirhage, and most probably Mesaana.  And as for Sharina, Sharina just started training.  Her POTENTIAL is above Nynaeve.  Doesn't mean that he actual strength then would be....

[Ged]

Apparently Nynaeve has been upgraded to the point that very few, and not many of the Forsaken are stronger than her in the Power. Which really doesn't seem all that interesting. I prefer my baddies being more powerful and threatening. The Forsaken have been turned into losers in just so many different ways.

 

Honestly, if you took away their powers and just made them random high level DFs, they'd be about as significant in the story. If they didn't have the OP, that would actually make them more interesting since they'd have at least made their minimal achievements through intelligent action and use of available resources as opposed to this situation where they completely fail to use the powers available to them.

 

Seriously, if nothing else, with Mesanna in the Tower (or any Black Ajah really), they should've been using the 13 AS, 13 Myrddraal thing to convert everyone. Seriously, how hard could it be to call meetings, get people alone, and start converting? Even easier with Forkroot. Convert Elaida first and you're already in a good position (not that Alviarin being Keeper was in a much worse position)

 

Seriously, RJ never thought much of this story through.

[albright]

I always wondered why we haven't seen more of the 13/13 conversion. I also wondered how exactly it turns you into a darkfriend. Is it just like a strong compulsion? Are you directly controlled by the DO? Does it somehow polarize your emotions from good to bad? It seems vague and the only thing I can imagine is that it is an unbreakable compulsion combined with a "chosen"-esque mark that makes you recognizable and controllable by the Shadow.

 

As far as the lack of usage of 13 AS/13 Myrdraal, there ARE some things to consider. First and foremost, gathering 13 channellers and 13 Myrdraal is a BIG undertaking, even for the Forsaken. Also, as we have seen, even the Black Ajah generally does not cooperate with itself. Somebody would have to organize this, likely a Forsaken, but a Forsaken would be wary of exposing themself to so many channelers even if they were darkfriends.

 

Overall, IMO the Forsaken really aren't on the Dark One's side. Rather, they are on their own side and generally just try to get whatever they desire without upsetting daddy DO.

 

Unless the DO directly orders specific people to do this to a specific person, I don't think any Forsaken, Black Ajah, or Darkfriend Ashaman would want to risk trying to organize this. And lets also keep in mind we don't know what the DO is planning or how he plans to achieve his goals.

 

I have my suspicions that this HAS been done to Taim however.