Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[Firebird]

While Danelle seems like a good choice do we really know/seen enough of her to make that call. BS/RJ have said we have enough information to determine who it is. Just because she is aloof & has no friends doesn't necessarily mean she is black.

 

Oh there's lots more to Danelle than just not having any friends  :)

 

She is one of the sisters involved with overthrowing Siuan as Amyrlin. She smirks at Siuan while Elaida is confronting her. She was also responsible for supervising the masons who were working on the new library. When Siuan is deposed and all hell breaks loose, Danelle's "masons" invade the tower leading to the warders fighting.

 

Mesaana was a scholarly type, so it would perhaps make sense for her to disguise herself as a Brown, and since Danelle has no friends, she doesn't need to worry about giving herself away by behaving out of character.

[Firebird]

Danelle is brown. Verin would surely have found a brown sister who was even slightly off-kilter since she was looking for Messy. Browns are knowledge-workers and scholars. To masquerade as Brown, Messy would need to not only look and act like said sister and mask enough of her power to pass(Easy enough let's say); she would also have to display the same specialised knowledge of exactly whatever the sister specialised in. That's really tough - you can look like a prof in an university but her colleagues will wonder what's wrong if you don't know that person's subject as well. A casual reference to say, a paper on insects in Mayene might trip her up.

Doubly dangerous for Messy because if she actually knew the subject, she might well know more than the AS she was pretending to be. That would be like a Nobel prize-winner trying to act like a raw sophomore.

It's fair point that Verin should pick up on a black Brown sister (if you see what I mean) more easily since this is her own Ajah. However, I'd argue the following points:

 

1. Danelle has no friends and, for all we know, may have little interaction with other sisters. She may have spent much of her time in the library not really involving herself directly with the rest of her Ajah. Given everything that has been going on in the Tower lately, sisters are hardly reaching out to other sisters, so it would be easy for a little mouse like Danelle to avoid notice.

2. Mesaana hasn't been out in the world all that long. It's not like she would have been impersonating Danelle for years. She could have taken over her identity only a few short months ago. Remember, Verin has been out of the Tower a fair bit, so she may have had little interaction with the "new" Danelle. Possibly all Danelle had to do to avoid suspicion was keep her head down.

 

Obviously no-one can say definitively that Danelle is or isn't Mesaana, but I think she's a strong contender.

 

[Crael123]

mesaana was the biggest disappointment of a forsaken in the whole series in my opinion. she was even more pitiful than Ba'lal. i mean she had one of the more powerful networks at her disposal. the black ajah would do whatever she wanted for her if she didn't want to get her hands dirty for some reason. o and did i mention she has been sitting on a room full of angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal the whole time she has been in the tower!i think it would be worth stealing that fluted rod sa'angreal egwene used and then ditching the place. she would have been the most powerful forsaken then. but no, sh sits on her lazy butt and does nothing.  

[Ashamandragoran]

OK, so here is a brief summary of what we know of Messana, feel free to add anything I've forgotten

 

1) She was a teacher and researcher during the AOL

2) She established herself in the WT

3) She has a pact with Demandred

4) She knew ahead of time that Rand will be kidnapped (LOC ch 6)

5) She taps her lips while thinking (ACOS prologue)

6) She somehow listned in on Alviarin's report to Elaida

7) She is tall and her voice sounds like chimes

8) When meeting with Alviarin one time, she is wearing a dress of bronze silk with black scrollwork

9) She wants Alviarin to find out why the Ajah heads are meeting together (now we know why). So this bit of information is beyond her grasp and she can't just listen in on anyone.

10) She wasn't able to come to Shadar Logoth

11) She is punished by Shaidar Haran for not coming

12) She appears just short of her middle years and has blue eyes (COT 21)

13) Both Verin and Sheriam think she is in the WT

14) She was able to either get around the oath rod and didn't have to use it during the purge

 

I reviewed all the Brown Ajah in the WT, and the only 2 good candidates I could find are Shevan and Danelle

 

What we know of Danelle

1) She is young and has big blue eyes

2) She brought two hundred soldiers brought into the White Tower disguised as masons. (TSR,Ch47)

3) She is one of Elaida's party that takes Siuan into custody. (TSR,Ch47)

4) meets as part of Elaida's Council. She reports on skirmishes in Shienar and Pedron Niall's political maneuvering in Altara, Murandy and Illian. 

5) Danelle reports to Elaida that Mattin Stepaneos has agreed while Roedran, Tylin and Alliandre are still considering.

6) She is one of the first people Alviarin passes between Elaida's quarters and her own. (ACoS,Prologue)

7) She wears a wool dress, not silk (TFOH 13)

 

What we know of Shevan

1) She is very tall and bonily thin with an angular face, a long chin and curly hair.

2) After the split, she is elected to be a sitter in the WT

3) She supports negotiations with the rebel AS

4) She wears a dress of dark golden silk when meeting with Elaida (TPOD 25)

 

Both don't really fit. Another option is that she may be a servant or a novice. It's funny because it actually simplifies her infiltration. Think about it, it'd be very difficult to just pretend to be a pre-existing AS. I know she could replace some kind of loner AS like Danelle, but being a new novice actually make sense.

- She doesn't have to have an ageless face

- she can be new to the tower

- this might explain how she listened in on Alviarin's report to Elaida

- Avoids the oath rod (for now)

 

Cheers

 

 

 

[saidarisnowtainted]

Ferane - the White Sitter

a tad too emotional similar to Mess, regularly wears dresses of, and/or containing different colors. This would explain seeing Messana in white (she's posing as a white) but it would also explain seeing her in a bronze-fringed dress, etc.

 

As a sitter, she stood to raise Elaida and could have had a hand in deposing Suane in the first instance.  

 

TGS—Ferane’s first interaction with Egwene with other sisters present:

Eggy presents her schtick about the divided tower.

Ferane seems somewhat contemptuous of Eggy and (patronizingly) asks Egwene what she would do to fix the situation

Egwene presents a good idea that appears to surprise Ferane

Right away, Ferane’s attitude towards Eggy changes – she gets really nice from that point.  I found that suspicious--because what i saw happening was Messana, underestimating Eggy and therefore being contemptuous, is suprprised by Eggy’s good idea because she sees that it can work.  Then she was thinking "oh crap, this girl's idea might work!  I obviously underestimated her, didnt plan for this, and i'm about to get another visit from Shadar Haran if i screw my assignment up.

 

Messana has to act fast and stop Egwene from talking to anyone else ASAP.  The easiest thing to do would be to help her escape from the Tower RIGHT AWAY.  However, the plan she formulates is flawed because, being a selfish baddy (like Elaida's previous BA Keeper that tried to tempt Egwene with escape) Messana would not expect that Egwene wanted to STAY imprisoned.

 

So, what's the next thing we see happen?  Egwene's cleaning out the fireplaces in the kitchen and Laras tries to help her escape.  Now I think Laras' affiliations are irrelevant here because either she's a DF or was told to do it eithe rdirectly or indirectly by Ferane/Messana on a legit order from an Aes Sedai Sitter.

 

But Egwene refuses to leave.  

Now, i think i recall that next time we see Ferane is at Elaida's dinner and i think that she revealed an element of surprise at seeing Egwene (perhaps because she expected that Egwene would have fled?).  I also suspected that Ferane had something to do with that dinner meeting--and had some expectations, but they were screwed by by Egwene being there and depended on Egwene no longer being there.

Also, please keep in mind that Messana is not BA so Liandrin’s POVs and/or anyone else’s that account for which AS Ajah heads/Sitters are BA does not help to confirm or deny.

 

Also perhaps Alviarin recognized her because she's also White.

 

My only question (besides an invitation to destroy this idea) is can anyone confirm whether we see Ferane in the series according to what we’ve been told as to when we see Messy in the Tower?

 

[TheGreyishGrayONE]

So, what's the next thing we see happen?  Egwene's cleaning out the fireplaces in the kitchen and Laras tries to help her escape.  Now I think Laras' affiliations are irrelevant here because either she's a DF or was told to do it eithe rdirectly or indirectly by Ferane/Messana on a legit order from an Aes Sedai Sitter.

I cannot bring myself to believe Laras is either a DF or was helping Egwene escape on orders from an AS. For one Verin herself says Laras is not a DF and, while she can lie, why would she lie about something that appears so trivial? Secondly it seems to me as though Laras could care less about what the AS tell her to do. I believe she helped Suain and Leane escape the tower after they were stilled, which seems as though it would be against the DO's or any Chosen's wishes as well as the wishes of most of the AS left in the tower..I'm fairly certain Laras was helping Egwene simply because she had either been in a similar situation before, or because she is genuinely a good person and was doing what she felt was right. I believe there are things about Laras we have yet to find out, but I doubt being a DF or any AS pawn will be one of them.

[csarmi]

Brandon confirmed there was a way to beat the oath rod. Can we figure out how?

[Crossroad]

Brandon confirmed there was a way to beat the oath rod. Can we figure out how?

 

Be and Accepted or Novice :) ;D

[Luckers]

Brandon confirmed there was a way to beat the oath rod. Can we figure out how?

 

Be and Accepted or Novice :) ;D

 

No. Graendal confirmed Mesaana was posing as an Aes Sedai.

[FanoLan]

Ferane - the White Sitter

a tad too emotional similar to Mess, regularly wears dresses of, and/or containing different colors. This would explain seeing Messana in white (she's posing as a white) but it would also explain seeing her in a bronze-fringed dress, etc.

 

As a sitter, she stood to raise Elaida and could have had a hand in deposing Suane in the first instance.  

 

TGS—Ferane’s first interaction with Egwene with other sisters present:

Eggy presents her schtick about the divided tower.

Ferane seems somewhat contemptuous of Eggy and (patronizingly) asks Egwene what she would do to fix the situation

Egwene presents a good idea that appears to surprise Ferane

Right away, Ferane’s attitude towards Eggy changes – she gets really nice from that point.  I found that suspicious--because what i saw happening was Messana, underestimating Eggy and therefore being contemptuous, is suprprised by Eggy’s good idea because she sees that it can work.  Then she was thinking "oh crap, this girl's idea might work!  I obviously underestimated her, didnt plan for this, and i'm about to get another visit from Shadar Haran if i screw my assignment up.

 

Messana has to act fast and stop Egwene from talking to anyone else ASAP.  The easiest thing to do would be to help her escape from the Tower RIGHT AWAY.  However, the plan she formulates is flawed because, being a selfish baddy (like Elaida's previous BA Keeper that tried to tempt Egwene with escape) Messana would not expect that Egwene wanted to STAY imprisoned.

 

So, what's the next thing we see happen?  Egwene's cleaning out the fireplaces in the kitchen and Laras tries to help her escape.  Now I think Laras' affiliations are irrelevant here because either she's a DF or was told to do it eithe rdirectly or indirectly by Ferane/Messana on a legit order from an Aes Sedai Sitter.

 

But Egwene refuses to leave.  

Now, i think i recall that next time we see Ferane is at Elaida's dinner and i think that she revealed an element of surprise at seeing Egwene (perhaps because she expected that Egwene would have fled?).  I also suspected that Ferane had something to do with that dinner meeting--and had some expectations, but they were screwed by by Egwene being there and depended on Egwene no longer being there.

Also, please keep in mind that Messana is not BA so Liandrin’s POVs and/or anyone else’s that account for which AS Ajah heads/Sitters are BA does not help to confirm or deny.

 

Also perhaps Alviarin recognized her because she's also White.

 

My only question (besides an invitation to destroy this idea) is can anyone confirm whether we see Ferane in the series according to what we’ve been told as to when we see Messy in the Tower?

 

 

Except we see Mesaana instruct Alviarin to find out why the heads of the Ajahs in the White Tower are collaborating.  Since Ferane is head of the White in the Tower, what would be the point?  Just to throw Alviarin off the scent of her assumed identity?

[NegaWalker]

Any ideas on what Mesaana is going to use the 19 Dream Ter'angreal for?

 

I'm thinking that because she called them Dream Weavers, they are going to have an extra ability or two. Though some are poor copies of the original.

 

I'm guessing World of Dream traps like the Hedgehog in The Dragon Reborn, myself.

[Ashamandragoran]

 

No. Graendal confirmed Mesaana was posing as an Aes Sedai.

 

I don't think Graendal knew who Mesaana was posing as, she was probably just guessing

[Luckers]

 

No. Graendal confirmed Mesaana was posing as an Aes Sedai.

 

I don't think Graendal knew who Mesaana was posing as, she was probably just guessing

 

Graendal states clearly that she has people specifically watching Mesaana in the Tower, and that she is posing as an Aes Sedai.

 

 

[saidarisnowtainted]

So, what's the next thing we see happen?  Egwene's cleaning out the fireplaces in the kitchen and Laras tries to help her escape.  Now I think Laras' affiliations are irrelevant here because either she's a DF or was told to do it eithe rdirectly or indirectly by Ferane/Messana on a legit order from an Aes Sedai Sitter.

I cannot bring myself to believe Laras is either a DF or was helping Egwene escape on orders from an AS. For one Verin herself says Laras is not a DF and, while she can lie, why would she lie about something that appears so trivial? Secondly it seems to me as though Laras could care less about what the AS tell her to do. I believe she helped Suain and Leane escape the tower after they were stilled, which seems as though it would be against the DO's or any Chosen's wishes as well as the wishes of most of the AS left in the tower..I'm fairly certain Laras was helping Egwene simply because she had either been in a similar situation before, or because she is genuinely a good person and was doing what she felt was right. I believe there are things about Laras we have yet to find out, but I doubt being a DF or any AS pawn will be one of them.

 

Laras’ light/dark alignment is irrelevant.  I agree that she isn’t dark—however, why wouldn’t she obey an AS order to let someone escape?  Especially if she thought it was the right thing to do?  We see good people with good intentions get manipulated by the dark.  Why not here too?

 

Consider that helping Suain and Leane escape was a factor that ultimately contributed to there being two towers, which also served Messana’s goals.

 

If it is Ferane, as a Sitter she would have been involved deposing Suiane, so she could easily have been behind quickly giving Laras the orders to let Suiane and Leane get away—again it helps the dark to let the former Amerlyn and her Keeper join up with the rebels because it will reinforce the divide.

 

In order to keep the WT split internally as well, Messana needed Egwene silenced asap and the quickest, cleanest way to do that is let her run away—this was attempted immediately and from Messy’s POV, there’s no reason to think that Eggy wouldn’t jump at the opportunity to run.  Again, we see Laras immediately attempting to help Eggy escape.

 

Indeed, did anyone else get the impression that Laras was being somewhat forceful in trying to get Eggy to leave?  May just be biased interpretation on my part.

 

So far, in my opinion, my theory hasn’t been shot down yet.  Please do your best b/c I don’t want to sit here thinking I am sure of something and later discover I was off.

 

[saidarisnowtainted]

 

 

Except we see Mesaana instruct Alviarin to find out why the heads of the Ajahs in the White Tower are collaborating.  Since Ferane is head of the White in the Tower, what would be the point?  Just to throw Alviarin off the scent of her assumed identity?

 

Was Ferane at the meeting of the Ajah heads that we were privy to?  I cant recall.  This definitely casts doubt on my theory but there remains wriggle room based on the idea that she could be trying to throw Alviarin off (especially since she got a glimpse of her) and/or trying to test her.

 

Also, being a sitter as well as ajah head is the perfect place for a forsaken because, based on the circumstances, the ajah heads were running things from behind the scenes.  Also, note that their actions only led to further discord in the tower--which served Messy's goals.

[jemron]

First of all, I don't think Mesaana is Laras.

 

Secondly, I don't think Laras is a darkfriend.

 

Third, has anyone considered that Laras is being controlled/compulsed by a DF?  Or by a Lightfriend?

 

Just because she herself isn't a baddy, doesn't mean she isn't working for them unknowingly or something.

 

That might be why she helps certain people.  I don't believe it, but I thought I would throw that out there.

 

I think she's actually just good at heart and sees when things in the Tower get taken too far, and she likes to help victims of the Tower politics when she thinks something bad or unfair is going on... But it's possible she's being controlled. 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Laras is and always has been while she has been at the Tower, the first step in the underground railway that leads to the Kin.

 

Helping Siuan and Leane escape didn't do anything to further the two Tower split.  They had both been stilled.  They would have both been shunned by any AS.  Nobody, least of all Mesaana would have had any idea that stilling could be healed and that they would eventually join the Rebel Tower.

[Lambada]

Right well we know that either Messana did not have to swear on the Oath Rod, or show can bypass the Oath Rod.

 

Possibility #1: She did not have to swear

How? She is either Servant , novice, or Accepted. Don't personally believe any of those. She might also have been missed in the swearing of the Oaths. E.g. Take Leane. When the Salidar camp reswore she was still a prisoner in the Tower. When she was released she was put back with the rebels (the courtyard scene after raising of Egwene take 2). She could have easily have avoided taking the Oaths as everyone thought she took them with the other group.

Personally I don't think it is this possibility - but I threw that last exposition out there to see what you thought)

 

Possibility #2: She could bypass the oaths

How?

a) She does not consider herself a Dark Friend. thus she would not be telling a lie

b) The Oaths were immediately removed. We don't know whether the TP would work on the Oath Rod thus enabling her to use Saidar to put the oaths then immediately channel back into the Rod with TP to remove the Oaths undetected. Do that before getting to the Dark Friend part and there would be no problem.

c) There is a problem with the resworn Oaths. This requires explanation.

 

We see the Three Oaths being sworn in several places. First of all in tPoD: they first oath is stated thus:

"Under the Light, I vow to speak no word that is not true." tPoD Chapter 26

 

Then in tGS:

"I vow that I will speak no will that is not true." tGS Chapter 43

 

I think there are others, but I have not the time nor the means to check them right now. However the key ot my point is that there appear to be leniency in the way you can say the Oaths.

 

I suspect that the one time we see a formal swearing will be back in NS after Siuan and Moiraine are raised to the shawl. My bet is that it will be the "Under the Light I swear...." If someone could post the exact wording of Oath #1 I would be grateful.

 

Now notice the discrepency. Egwene omitted under the Light. I'm not going to say that Egwene is Messana, but i'm saying that depending on the formality of this reswearing there might be small tiny loopholes in versions of the Oaths that were sworn. I'm betting that considering the number of sisters who had to re-swear and then say they are not a DF a clever mind could think up a tiny little loophole, e.g. if they say "Under the Light...." but they do not serve the Light they could see that as an invalid Oath worth nothing. We all know that the ability to lie depends on your perception of the truth, well what about your perception of the Oath?.

 

Note: I mainly think it is that she does not consider herself a DF but I threw out the Oath Wording and TP-unbinding possibilities to create a bit of discussion on these lines which I think are interesting at the very least.

[makaveli422]

Well saidarisnowtainted Ferane was in the meeting of the Ajah heads. Chp 43 Sealed to the Flame page 669. She is described as a short stout woman who was more temper than logic. During their disscusion Serancha askes where they went wrong and Ferane blames Elaida. Ferane also says that the tower must be mended. Later during their disscusion Ferane suggests one of them should be Amyrlin. But by the end of their chat she is supporting Egwene for Amyrlin. Why if she was Mesaana would she do this? She has a lot of respect for Eg, and I don't think this fits Mesaana's personality at all. 

[MatrixM]

Was Ferane at the meeting of the Ajah heads that we were privy to?  I cant recall.  This definitely casts doubt on my theory but there remains wriggle room based on the idea that she could be trying to throw Alviarin off (especially since she got a glimpse of her) and/or trying to test her.

Alviarin got a glimpse when she was being punished by Shaidar Harin, right? Wasn't that after her order to investigate ajah heads?

 

[FanoLan]

Right well we know that either Messana did not have to swear on the Oath Rod, or show can bypass the Oath Rod.

 

Possibility #1: She did not have to swear

How? She is either Servant , novice, or Accepted. Don't personally believe any of those. She might also have been missed in the swearing of the Oaths. E.g. Take Leane. When the Salidar camp reswore she was still a prisoner in the Tower. When she was released she was put back with the rebels (the courtyard scene after raising of Egwene take 2). She could have easily have avoided taking the Oaths as everyone thought she took them with the other group.

Personally I don't think it is this possibility - but I threw that last exposition out there to see what you thought)

 

Possibility 1 - Agreed she is posing in the disguise of a sister and has not avoided the Oath Rod by posing as serv/nov/acc.  Nice example with Leane; I agree she is not Messy.  However, this method could have been used by Messy to avoid detection - worth another look at sisters' behavior just before/during the reunification, but I doubt the clue is in tGS even if this is the escape action Messy used.

 

Possibility #2: She could bypass the oaths

How?

a) She does not consider herself a Dark Friend. thus she would not be telling a lie

b) The Oaths were immediately removed. We don't know whether the TP would work on the Oath Rod thus enabling her to use Saidar to put the oaths then immediately channel back into the Rod with TP to remove the Oaths undetected. Do that before getting to the Dark Friend part and there would be no problem.

c) There is a problem with the resworn Oaths. This requires explanation.

 

Possibility #2 - bypassing the oaths

a) This is definitely possible from what we've seen in the books, but very unappealing to me.  Guess it could result in some comedic relief (Messy bound to speak no word that is not true and running into Halimigar ;)) and maybe some valuable info if Egwene finds her before she escapes, but overall, just kind of meh to me if it plays out this way.

 

b) As a corollary to immediate removal, I think we should also consider the oath not actually being applied in the first place.  Assuming the DO lets Messy draw the TP to save her skin, that also could have been used to construct a tiny barrier between the flow of saidar and the ORod, or some other weaving to protect from the oath binding her.  Messy doesn't seem a likely candidate for access to the TP these days, but still possible the DO would grant her temporary access given the circumstances and the threat to numerous DFs if Messy is captured and forced to spill her guts.

 Similarly, Messy could have used an inverted weave of saidar to fool the AS implementing the swearing.  She could have woven an inverted shield between the weave of spirit and the OR and a an Illusion to make it look good to the barely trained children attempting to bind her.  Or some such method - definitely a better option to me than using AS wordplay, but then again Messy has been in the Tower for a while.   :)

 

c) Problem with re-sworn oaths - again possible, but we would need to see the exact language Egwene used during the purge.  Don't have my copy of NS at hand and the eWOT only indicates that a flow of spirit was directed into the OR by Tamra and Moiraine speaks the words of the three oaths with no preamble, "I vow that I will speak now word that is not true, I vow..., I vow..."

 

 

 

[MatrixM]

Getting around the Oath Rod has been heavily hinted at by Brandon Sanderson. And how is Mesaana supposed to be stopping the weave from touching the oath rod without anyone noticing? They can see whether it's touching or not.

[FanoLan]

Was Ferane at the meeting of the Ajah heads that we were privy to?  I cant recall.  This definitely casts doubt on my theory but there remains wriggle room based on the idea that she could be trying to throw Alviarin off (especially since she got a glimpse of her) and/or trying to test her.

Alviarin got a glimpse when she was being punished by Shaidar Harin, right? Wasn't that after her order to investigate ajah heads?

 

 

Yes, you've got the chronology correct.  First the directive to learn what the Ajah heads are conspiring to achieve then later the Shaidar Haran encounter.  Just does not see possible Messy is posing as one of the Ajah Heads (other than Tsutama) given the directive to Alviarin.  No reason for us to conclude Messy is intentionally deceiving Alvi with this request.  RJ did a fantastic job of misdirection, akin to a magician's slight of hand, but sometimes he did have to give us reliable information to make the story interesting.

[MatrixM]

Why would she need info on ajah head meetings if she's the ajah head of the Red?

 

And the Red doesn't seem to suit her character, a scholar as a Red?

[FanoLan]

Getting around the Oath Rod has been heavily hinted at by Brandon Sanderson. And how is Mesaana supposed to be stopping the weave from touching the oath rod without anyone noticing? They can see whether it's touching or not.

 

Not being and AoL scholar, my frame of reference is less than ideal, but we've seen inverted weaves and illusion.  "Getting around" the OR is what we're discussing - not exactly precise language that I've seen from BrS on the issue.