Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[Vulgir]

Re. Taim being Dark.

 

We have another explanation for Taim's order to kill Rand.  This was after the fiasco with Callandor outside Ebou Dar.  Dashiva had warned Rand about how wonky the Power was.  Rand had ignored the warning.  He had then nearly destroyed everyone, including his own forces.

 

Taim has a policy of humanely destroying any Asha'man who go mad.  Based on Dashiva's report about what had happened, it would be entirely logical for Taim to conclude that Rand had gone mad and had to be killed before he could destroy all chance of defeating the DO.

 

 

Kissman has the order before Rand goes crazy with Callandor

 

"Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" is from a game from the  era of Great Aravalon. it is not from this era, so doubt its a common saying.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Kissman has the order before Rand goes crazy with Callandor

 

Would love to see a quote on that.

"Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" is from a game from the  era of Great Aravalon. it is not from this era, so doubt its a common saying.

 

Children's games remain pretty static.  Each generation teaches its children the games they learned at the same age.  The game and the rhyme might go back to Hawkwing's time or even earlier.

 

The rhyme itself seems to be prophesy for the upcoming attempt to rescue Moiraine.

[Vulgir]

woops im wrong on that Bob T dwarf, got confused on the timeline.

 

[Aceviper]

I haven't read all the pages of this thread, but here is my present theory

 

Demandred is in the Borderlands. Maybe he controls all 4 countries, or at least Shienar, and possibly Arafel. I am hesitant to say that he has a direct control over all 4 countries, because as of TGS, Rodel Itularde has been in Saldea, working with Saldeans to protect the Border, and he didn't report anything suspicious to Rand (yet)

 

The reason why I think he is in the Borderlands starts with the rebellions that occurred in Shienar and Arafel. The apparent cause of the fighting there has been Rand (is he the DR or not). Also, the fighting had started about the time of the fall of the Stone of Tear, and by that time all of the Forsaken were out and about. In LoC we find the most mentions about the fighting, including the fact that it was abating. Of course, by the beginning of PoD, the fighting was done, since the 4 rulers had met. Also, sometime in book 4 or 5 I believe, Taim escapes the Aes Sedai, and Tenobia sends her best general to track him down and kill him. Then there is the whole meeting of the 4 rulers and their quest to find Rand. I could agree with them deciding to go and find Rand, but what I can't agree with is why did they have to take 200,000 men with them, including the other Great Captain of the Borderlands, Agelmar Jagad. So far we don't know the reasons why the 4 rulers are so desperate to find Rand, so all of this leads me to the conclusion that Demandred is in the Borderlands

 

Here is what I think he did: he was behind the rebellions, which helped get close to Kings Paitar and Easar. He also got close somehow to the other 2 rulers. And he used Compulsion on all 4 (not a whole lot) to make them abandon their duty and go search out Rand. I also think he helped Taim escape, then he convinced Queen Tenobia to send Bashere after Taim, thus weakening Saldea.

I have a feeling that when Rand finally meets with the 4 rulers, they will not be able to explain to him their reasons, and Rand or one if his Asha'man will discover the Compulsion on them, and...

 

If my theory is correct, then there is one prediction I would like to make. Demandred will soon discover that he has a thorn in his side: The Uncrowned King

 

 

 

This.  I'm surpised no one else has really followed this theory.  He is in the Borderlands, but not with the borderlands' armies.  From one of these strongholds, he would still be able to meddle in world affairs (prophet, taim, etc.).  This is where I thought he was; Corvinus here explained it much better than I would have. 

 

Considering Corvinus' theory, we read that the borderland rulers take 200,000 soldiers with them. But you do realise that there was also the mention (when the 4 rulers met) of having brought lots of soldiers BUT having KEPT enough soldiers back to guard the Borderlands short of anything but something as bad as the Trolloc Wars. So taking those words into consideration, we will have to look into the fact that the Borderlands ARE well defended.

 

I think your theory and you, Corvinus, are convinced that Demandred would be in the Borderlands, because that is the only place as of yet which hasn't been shown in detial much. But, of course, now that we have Lan in the Borderlands, running from one end to the other rallying forces, maybe in the next book, we might get a glimpse of his side of the story. eh? Or maybe, for all you know, the next book might reveal Demandred's 3rd age face.

 

Personally, I'm tied between two possibilities - One, that he might be in the Borderlands. Two, that maybe he has a bigger hand in things than we think he has - possibily, like Moridin (and yet unlike him), subtly making the remaining Forsaken do what he wants. I say "like Moridin", cuz he might be manipulating them, and "unlike them", cuz Moridin does not "subtly" do things. Demandred, after all doesn't have the title of Naeblis to protect him.

 

My second theory isn't very convincing. >.< Hey, it's just a possibility that struck my mind. Maybe one of you could build on it (?).

 

[havoc110]

Yeah, "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" is a very common saying.

 

I've heard it by at least 3 people, Dem, Semi, and Taim.

 

 

 

 

[jemron]

Yeah, "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" is a very common saying.

 

I've heard it by at least 3 people, Dem, Semi, and Taim.

 

 

 

 

 

Don't forget the Dark One himself said it.

[Vulgir]

Yeah, "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" is a very common saying.

 

I've heard it by at least 3 people, Dem, Semi, and Taim.

 

 

 

 

 

Is this sarcasim? Because 3 people  knowing it, 2 from a few thousand years ago, and one quite possibly in cahoots with them, and making it all 3 of them gettin the same order from the same place makes it a common saying???!?????

[Caedn of the Taardad]

First off, sorry if I repeat anything already mentioned, I was only able to read to the midle of page 7, and I'm out of time for now, but here goes...

 

None have been named to date.

 

The only one we have had named so far is one of the Borderlander Rulers favorite sister (of all the flaming luck, PoD was one of the two WoT pdfs I couldn't find, and I won't have acess to my books all week :'(), but none of the others have been named.  

 

As to the sisters with the Borderlanders. In the prologue to FoH, Elaida is upbraiding a bunch of Sisters. She either thinks of someone to send or sends one of THEM to ride herd on Tenobia. I think it was a Red. Don't recall the name.

 

 

On this, Elaida did send a Red to "bully" Tenobia, but she managed to give her the slip, so she isn't one of the ones with her.  Once again, I can't give a quote because I don't have the bloody book...

 

And finally, on the subject of Demondred, here is my theory, and again, if someone else has mentioned it, I'm sorry, but I'm out of time here...

 

We know he is in command of an army, but he likes using proxies, and what better place for him to be then one of the greatest generals in the current world, High Lord Galgan, of the Ever Victorious Army.  This would fit, as he had an alliance with Semi, so it's not too much of a stretch that they might set up base in the same area, and this would give him control of the most powerful single army in the known world (Rand's armies being somewhat more split up then the single force of an empire).  As for proof, after Tylee is attacked by Trollocs in TGS, she comes back and Galgan is uncharacteristically surprised to see her, though he covers it up by claiming surprise she came so soon, it's far more likely he sent the Trolocs in the first place...  Not much proof, I know, but it fits rather well IMO...  He has a position of power controlling armies currently apposed to Rand, and able to influence the most powerfull single fore this side of the Dragonwall against Rand, and he apears to have tried to get Tylee killed (she being the one voice of reason for allying with Rand...)

 

Just my gut feeling here, but feel free to rip and tear, its why I've been waiting for this topic...

[havoc110]

I don't think we know he has an army.  I think Graendal surmised that on hearing Dem say something like "we prepare for war".  Dem never mentions an army.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't think we know he has an army.  I think Graendal surmised that on hearing Dem say something like "we prepare for war".  Dem never mentions an army.

 

"My rule is secure," Demandred said, simply.  " I gather for war.  We will be ready."

[Muad Cheade]

Considering Corvinus' theory, we read that the borderland rulers take 200,000 soldiers with them. But you do realise that there was also the mention (when the 4 rulers met) of having brought lots of soldiers BUT having KEPT enough soldiers back to guard the Borderlands short of anything but something as bad as the Trolloc Wars. So taking those words into consideration, we will have to look into the fact that the Borderlands ARE well defended.

 

You also have to remember that not only has the Blight receded, but Shadowspawn activity has been very low for over a year. That would definitely prejudice the minds of the Borderland rulers. An invasion on the same level (or possibly greater) than the Trolloc Wars is coming so it is still under-defended. Notice that we did not hear any mention of Saldean troops ever since General Ituralde has been there.

 

We know he is in command of an army, but he likes using proxies, and what better place for him to be then one of the greatest generals in the current world, High Lord Galgan, of the Ever Victorious Army.  This would fit, as he had an alliance with Semi, so it's not too much of a stretch that they might set up base in the same area, and this would give him control of the most powerful single army in the known world (Rand's armies being somewhat more split up then the single force of an empire).  As for proof, after Tylee is attacked by Trollocs in TGS, she comes back and Galgan is uncharacteristically surprised to see her, though he covers it up by claiming surprise she came so soon, it's far more likely he sent the Trolocs in the first place...  Not much proof, I know, but it fits rather well IMO...  He has a position of power controlling armies currently apposed to Rand, and able to influence the most powerfull single fore this side of the Dragonwall against Rand, and he apears to have tried to get Tylee killed (she being the one voice of reason for allying with Rand...)

 

It's a valid theory but if Galgan was a Darkfriend, Suroth would not be so inclined to have him killed or assassinated. He would not have known of Tylee's opinion of alliance with Rand (she kept it to herself until she met Tuon) even if he somehow ordered the Trolloc attack (Also remember that ever since the attack on the manor in Tear, Moridin has kept a tight reign on the distribution of Shadowspawn so that order probably came from him).

[zilcho]

I know that Senchan is in disorder way over the ocean but it's a large continent and the remark that his position is secure doesn't have to mean that it's a stable nation he is in but just that he has secured his position, maybe my gathering huge armies there or is in some sort of position where he could take control of them before the crystal throne restores the order.

 

Another thing I've been thinking about is the land of madmen, why would it be mentioned at all in the world of RJ if it wont affect the world? The people are obviously mad there but picking some of them up or a lot of them and then doping em of here and there should produce a fair amount of chaos, a few still crazy male channeler in the middle of a city or an army could do a lot of nasty stuff to those close at hand and some still not as crazy but probably mad female channeler as well.

 

Just trying to fuel the fires  ;)

[Davian93]

He can't be Galgan because we haven't seen his 3rd world persona yet and we have seen Galgan on-screen prior to the end of KoD.

 

He might be in Shara (it would fit that he'd be gathering a Dreadlord Army as regular troops are cannon fodder in a war of power), he might be in Murandy (its location is pretty strategic if nothing else as its dead center on the continent and in a position to royally screw up Rand's plans and he might be with the Borderlanders (either in the Borderlands or with the 4 Rulers).

 

We have no idea and its still driving me nuts.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

He can't be Galgan because we haven't seen his 3rd world persona yet and we have seen Galgan on-screen prior to the end of KoD.

 

He might be in Shara (it would fit that he'd be gathering a Dreadlord Army as regular troops are cannon fodder in a war of power), he might be in Murandy (its location is pretty strategic if nothing else as its dead center on the continent and in a position to royally screw up Rand's plans and he might be with the Borderlanders (either in the Borderlands or with the 4 Rulers).

 

We have no idea and its still driving me nuts.

 

Yes, I finally both found a date and was able to do the math on Jordan's quote, ruling out Galgan,about two hours after I posted that...  Anyway, with that I'm inclined to agree most with the Seanchan Mainland takeover. 

[nreisenb]

I think it's very explicitly stated in Chapter 42: Before the Stone of Tear that Demandred is Darlin.

 

When Rand comes across Darlin, Sanderson wrote the following description:

 

Darlin--once a High Lord, now King of Tear...Shorter than Rand by at least a head...his prominent nose kept him from being handsome...Rand found him very keen of mind...

 

That is the spitting image of Demandred. There are countless descriptions which talk about his nose (poor guy) and his height almost being as tall as Rand. The whole idea is that he's almost as powerful as Lewis/Rand, almost as handsome almost as tall, etc etc.

 

There are several examples throughout the books that describe Demandred.

 

Here’s one from the Wot Glossary which sums them up nicely:

 

"Almost" is the story of Barid Bel Medar's life. He was born one day after Lews Therin Telamon. He was almost handsome, other than his hawk nose. He was the second most acclaimed man of the Age of Legends, holding high offices and wrote books, not quite as high or successful as Lews Therin.

 

Not only that, think of all the other evidence.

 

Sammael says the situation in the South has the mark of Demandred : Darlin is King of Tear.

 

Demandred himself says his rule is secure : Darlin is King of Tear.

 

Demandred himself says his armies are gathering : Darlin is gathering armies.

 

What do you guys think? Is this not it?

 

[nreisenb]

and if I might add, we better get a vicious death match between Demandred and Rand. Especially after all this lead up. I really hope he doesn't die off screen or die to one of Rand's lackies. That would be the ultimate left down. I'm talking like a chapter at the climax of the next book with Rand and Demandred tearing each other to pieces. Large sections of Tear will be blown away, a great many friendlies will be incinerated. Hopefully Cadusane, several Asha'man and Aes Sedai will be burned away. Several Aiel and maidens will be eviscerated.  Nynaeve will still herself trying to heal all the carnage, etc etc (I know Sanderson likes her the most, but she doesn't have to die, we just need to, in my opinion, be spared her pov! No channeling=no air time for non channie girls).

 

Rand, of course, will come out on top but we better get a fight to remember. This has been building up for a while and if Demandred hates Rand as much as he says he does, he's gonna fight like hell.

 

Common Sanderson, lets get something that'll make the simpler part of us guys smile. A lot of stuff needs to blow up after 13 freaking books:P

[Vulgir]

Respectfully guys, I don't understand why it's so complicated in deciding who Demandred is.

 

I think it's very explicitly stated in Chapter 42: Before the Stone of Tear.

 

When Rand comes across Darlin, Sanderson wrote the following description:

 

Darlin--once a High Lord, now King of Tear...Shorter than Rand by at least a head...his prominent nose kept him from being handsome...Rand found him very keen of mind...

 

That is the spitting image of Demandred. There are countless descriptions which talk about his nose (poor guy) and his height almost being as tall as Rand. The whole idea is that he's almost as powerful as Lewis/Rand, almost as handsome almost as tall, etc etc.

 

There are several examples throughout the books that describe Demandred.

 

Here’s one from the Wot Glossary which sums them up nicely:

 

"Almost" is the story of Barid Bel Medar's life. He was born one day after Lews Therin Telamon. He was almost handsome, other than his hawk nose. He was the second most acclaimed man of the Age of Legends, holding high offices and wrote books, not quite as high or successful as Lews Therin.

 

Not only that, think of all the other evidence.

 

Sammael says the situation in the South has the mark of Demandred : Darlin is King of Tear.

 

Demandred himself says his rule is secure : Darlin is King of Tear.

 

Demandred himself says his armies are gathering : Darlin is gathering armies.

 

What do you guys think? Is this not it?

 

 

Ruled out, Darlin was on screen before KOD. Thus is cannot be him. Also if he was, he would have taken any chance he could get to kill Rand AKA after the bubble of evil attack.

[nreisenb]

I didn't recall Darlin being onscreen before then. You should note that I respectfully felt that way. Meaning I understand I could be wrong. It's my opinion after all.

 

The parallels are so damn uncanny. That is why he seems more likely than Faile or Bashere, and ya I get your sarcasm.

 

I figured when Sanderson wrote that, he was just trying to put the Demandred debate out of its misery.

 

Obviously we'll see one way or the other.

[nreisenb]

I checked your points quickly, and it definitely looks like you're right and I'm wrong. That'll teach me to post my views on this forum without thinking too deeply:P that's impressive you can remember all that stuff.

 

And here I was, so excited that I had found something that answered this little mystery.

 

That'll teach me to go up against the Dragonmount regulars:P

[Vulgir]

My apologies, i changed my post like a minute after i put it up, it was a bit rude, sorry had my wisdom tooth pulled this weekend lil grumpy.

[Mr Ares]

Another thing I've been thinking about is the land of madmen, why would it be mentioned at all in the world of RJ if it wont affect the world? The people are obviously mad there but picking some of them up or a lot of them and then doping em of here and there should produce a fair amount of chaos, a few still crazy male channeler in the middle of a city or an army could do a lot of nasty stuff to those close at hand and some still not as crazy but probably mad female channeler as well.

The Land of Madmen isn't emntioned at all in the text, only the BWB. If it was to play an important part, I think RJ should actually have put it in the books.

 

I checked your points quickly, and it definitely looks like you're right and I'm wrong. That'll teach me to post my views on this forum without thinking too deeply:P that's impressive you can remember all that stuff.

 

And here I was, so excited that I had found something that answered this little mystery.

 

That'll teach me to go up against the Dragonmount regulars:P

You ain't seen nothing yet. Off the top of my head, for example, I know the first time we see Darlin is in the Stone of Tear, fighting Mat, in TDR. And that he leaves the day after it falls to Rand, to begin raising support for a rebellion, and Rand appreciates his honesty (as so many others profess loyalty and scheme behind his back). And I'm not even the most knowledgeable around here.

[Firebird]

I checked your points quickly, and it definitely looks like you're right and I'm wrong. That'll teach me to post my views on this forum without thinking too deeply:P that's impressive you can remember all that stuff.

 

And here I was, so excited that I had found something that answered this little mystery.

 

That'll teach me to go up against the Dragonmount regulars:P

I think everyone's had a theory that seems to fit all the facts perfectly - until someone points out some glaring hole that you completely missed! I'd still post though and put your theory to the test (unless it's come up 500 times already!)

[The Fisher King]

Mr Ares:

 

''And I'm not even the most knowledgeable around here.''

 

Did HE really just say THAT???!!!

 

...after years of browsing here...*<Falls Over>*

 

 

;)

 

 

Fish

[dholm]

We haven't seen Demandred's 3rd Age persona on-screen as of KOD, and I cannot think of any likely candidates in TGS. What we can have seen, however, is a proxy -- and Demandred is known for liking proxies.

 

I was just thinking, though... we have seen no Chosen in Cairhien (unless you count Lanfear). Could Demandred (or his proxy) be a high-ranking Cairhienin? Dobraine seems unlikely given his behavior so far, and especially considering how he was almost assassinated, but if that was planned by Graendal, it's not impossible.

 

Andor, Arad Doman, Tear, Illian, Tar Valon and Seanchan (thus including Tarabon, Altara and Amadicia) were all infiltrated by Chosen. Would it really be so odd if Cairhien were similarly infiltrated?

 

Meh, it's thin. But it's something to ponder, I think.

[Ryamano]

I also like the Borderlands theory. Queen Tenobia's behavior prior to joining the other kings of the Borderlands kind of shows that she's under the influence of the shadow. Rahvin as Gaebril controlled each Aes Sedai sent to counsel Morgaise. Demandred (if on Tenobia's and Easar's court) made them dismiss each Aes Sedai sent to them by the WT, except for those 13 that are with the army now. Borderlanders really respect AS (look at Shienarans in the first two books) so why would they start dismissing them? I tell you, they're under the influence of the Shadow.

 

Going away with 200,000 soldiers as well is very suspicious. If they wanted to talk to Rand the best thing was to send emisaries, not to go themselves with an army (really, what's the point? Also it'd cost a lot to feed that army all the way to their destination point, so they're wasting money and resources, since they're going back to the borderlands once they're finished talking with Rand).

 

Having a meeting with him in Far Madding is suspicious as well. Once they got there they must have heard of how he was treated there. Also they wouldn't know that he was going crazy, so no need to fear. Unlike Gawyn they don't think he killed Morgase, since they talked with Elayne. Also they'd have only good words from the new king of Tear. Therefore it looks like a trap. Like Demandred used compulsion on all of them and told them to go away with a huge army on a goose chase, wasting resources and making a trap for Rand.

 

If he was in Saldea he could have helped in Mazrim Taim's escape as well. He could have ordered MT to keep an eye on Rand and to not kill him (only Dem can kill him! Mwahahahaha!). Therefore the comment on Osan'gar and Dem watching Rand would make sense. But Demandred would have never been in the BT, meeting Taim only in the WoD or something like that. That'd explain his lack of knowledge about Asha'man.

 

I also agree that Dem has influenced Masema. It makes sense.