The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[mossman87]

I still believe it's the fat man angreal.

[Bobbun]

We definitely don't seem to have seen everything there is to know about Rhuidean.  I'm sure it's not the big thing, but this tidbit struck me recently on my reread:

 

"Change," Rhuarc said. "You know he brings change, Amys. It is wondering what change, and how, that makes us like children alone in the dark. Since it must be, let it begin now. No two clan chiefs I have spoken with have seen through the exactly same eyes, Rand, or exactly the same things, until the sharing of water, and the meeting where the Agreement of Rhuidean was made. Whether it is the same for Wise Ones, I do not

know, but I suspect it is. I think it is a matter of bloodlines. I believe I saw through the eyes of my ancestors, and you yours."

 

The bloodlines thing has been discussed to death, of course, but what I found interesting about the text above was that the Agreement of Rhuidean was the first thing Rand saw.  He saw nothing before that point, and implication from Rhuarc's comment is that other clan chiefs have seen more recent events in the Aiel history going through Rhuidean than Rand was privileged to see.

[Dreamwalker]

I still believe it's the fat man angreal.

 

Oh wow, that's a really, REALLY good idea. Rand lost it in LoC when he was put in the box and we haven't seen it since and don't know what happened to it. Taim could have it, or one of the Forsaken.

AWESOME!

[foillion]

So finally finished my reread of those three books and here's the things I've come up with.

 

1.  Ageless face loss upon severing.  Oaths in general.

2.  Alanna's Bond.

3.  Herid Fel's message, "Belief and order give strength"

4.  Tinker's Message "Tell the Dragon Reborn"

5.  Bashere being the "serpent in the bosom"

6.  Egwene's headaches....they actually start when she's in the Waste learning to be a dreamwalker.  Aragar's hand isn't played til much later.

7.  And the whole part with Slayer/Isam/Luc.  The Aes Sedai, who's name escapes me at the moment, set literally everything up for Slayer to be created and the Dragon to be reborn.  The whole 3 becoming one thing could take on a whole new meaning.  Slayer has a much bigger role to play in the future.

 

And that's about all I got.  One or two other things I meant to jot down but forgot I'm sure.

[Dreamwalker]

7.  And the whole part with Slayer/Isam/Luc.  The Aes Sedai, who's name escapes me at the moment, set literally everything up for Slayer to be created and the Dragon to be reborn.  The whole 3 becoming one thing could take on a whole new meaning.  Slayer has a much bigger role to play in the future.

 

And that's about all I got.  One or two other things I meant to jot down but forgot I'm sure.

 

The AS you're thinking of is Gitara Moroso, the one that has the Foretelling and drops dead when Rand is born. Most of Gitara's Foretellings that we know about basically set the stage for Rand and Tarmon Gai'don. She told Tigraine (Shaiel) that disaster would befall the world unless she went to the Aiel Waste and became a Maiden of the Spear and did not return until the Maidens went to Tar Valon - this effectively caused Rand to be conceived and then born on Dragonmount.

 

I believe her purpose in sending away Luc was to help ensure that there would be a succession conflict in Caemlyn since his sister Tigraine and he would both be gone - which directly led to Morgase gaining the throne and Elayne being born (since Taringail Damodred only married Morgase b/c she was queen). Taken with Elaida's foretelling about the royal line of Andor being the key to winning Tarmon Gai'don, this has some interesting implications - perhaps Rand and Elayne's children will be important.

 

Or she just sent Luc away so that he wouldn't be around to go chasing after Tigraine and bring her back.

[dumont76]

I am doing a re-read or I should say re-listen (audio books) and I noticed something that I have never caught before.  Forgive my mispelling of names....when Suian is talking to Min and the Keeper in The Shadow Rising, she is talking about all the crazy reports she has been getting.  This is right before she gets the report that Rand has taken callindor.   One of the things she mentions is that a Lord of Shinar (Borderlands) has proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn.  Could this be it...that the Boderlands have their own "Dragon Reborn" or think they have the true one?  (unseen Foresaken..maybe?)

 

That would be "The Prophet" preaching about Rand.  Masema(The Prophet) is insanely dedicated to the DB, but has twisted himself into a lunatic, mainly because he was sent from their hideout in the mountains by Lan & Moiraine after Rand fled alone. (thus not allowed to be near Rand again) The "Shienaran lord" part of that discussion is just Masema's twist on the proclamation, mostly due to the soldiers of Fal Dara having been the first to see and follow Rand before and after the events at Falme.

 

Also, a lot of the rank-and-file in Sheinar did think that Rand was a lord, partially because of the importance that Moiraine put on him, getting welcomed into the home of the Sheinarian king, but also because the Al' in his last name was a royal or noble prefix used in Sheinarian names.  So wasn't so much a twist on the proclamation as much as something Masema might have believed.

 

 

Nice addition, I had forgotten about the 'Al prefix :)  Funniest thing about this situation with Masema "The Prophet" is that until Rand unleashed at Falme, Masema gave him more than a severe cold shoulder, probably doubting his "lordliness", therefore feeling shame and going overboard in his devotion later on.

 

 

[insane_ashaman]

I still believe it's the fat man angreal.

 

Oh wow, that's a really, REALLY good idea. Rand lost it in LoC when he was put in the box and we haven't seen it since and don't know what happened to it. Taim could have it, or one of the Forsaken.

AWESOME!

 

From Luckers:

--Things we can probably rule out based on the Theorylander discussion.

 

Certain parts of these comments were inaccurate, therefore depending on Peter’s thoughts on the importance of technicalities may still be viable.

 

•  Elayne and Nynaeve’s use of Need in TAR which led to the *angreal storeroom [note: The theorylanders only discussed this in terms of E&N using Need to find a ter’angreal which fixes the weather, which is not accurate. They were using Need to find something to help Rand, and to convince the the Salidar Aes Sedai to stand with him (which led to the Bowl of the Winds and their claims that it required a man to work).]

•  Farstrider in Graendal’s lair [note: In my opinion the old man is more likely Alsalam, but irrespective as with above the Graendal’s ‘old man’ may still be viable, provided he isn’t in fact Farstrider]

 

--Things we can fully rule out based on the Theorylander discussion.

 

( * ) means more than one mention in the thread.

( ** ) means detailed conversation occurred on this subject in the thread.

 

•  **A.R. (anything related) to Birgitte, her expulsion from TAR, or Moghedian controlling her.

•  A.R. to Slayer in the Two Rivers, or him entering ToG.

•  *A.R. to the ter’angreal stash in Rhuidean, or those taken by Moiraine.

•  A.R. to Egeanin’s appearance in the story.

•  A.R. to Fel’s note, philosophy, or instructions to Rand.

•  **A.R. to Shara, or reports of war there.

•  **A.R. to the Tinker wagons Mat finds destroyed in LoC.

•  A.R. to either of Moiraine’s notes.

•  *A.R. to any actions of the Gholam.

•  **A.R. to the Tower of Ghenjei, the doorway ter’angreal, the Finn’s, or prophecies or knowledge relating to either.

•  A.R. to the sisters Siuan sent to recapture Taim.

•  A.R. to the question of who killed Sahra Covenry.

•  **A.R. to Graendal’s meeting with Inturalde, or what she may have done to him.

•  A.R. to the Pit of Doom being in a different world.

•  *A.R. to Rand becoming Moridin.

•  **A.R. to Rand being one with the land, or the changing influence of his ta’verenism, or the effects his corrupted wounds might have through his ta’verenism.

•  A.R. to Asmodean.

•  A.R. to Taim gaining his freedom, or dealing with Bashere.

•  **A.R. to the Aiel Memory Collumns, the seed singing, or the Song, including Ogier, Tinker and Aiel implications.

•  A.R. to Moiraine’s knowledge of the future.

•  A.R. to Fain in books 4-6.

•  **A.R. to the Ashendarei, or the reasons the Finns gave it to Mat.

•  A.R. to Avendesora, including the correlation between Rand’s feelings under Avendesora, and his feelings in Veins of gold.

•  A.R. to Min’s viewing in tSR, including that of the apple cheeked accepted [Theodrin???] behind bars.

 

The Fat Man Angreal isn't on this list. Interesting...

[insane_ashaman]

Sammael said the kidnapping of Rand was either the work of Messana, Demandred, or Semirhage, or all in cahoots. So if the members of the BA got it from him, either they (Galina and her bunch) have it, or they had to give it up to one of the previously mentioned Chosen, because Taim and the Ash'aman couldn't find it (if they were looking for it).

[NetSlider]

I still believe it's the fat man angreal.

 

Oh wow, that's a really, REALLY good idea. Rand lost it in LoC when he was put in the box and we haven't seen it since and don't know what happened to it. Taim could have it, or one of the Forsaken.

AWESOME!

 

You know, i used to think that it might be it and than thought that it was not. But now that i think about it, all chosen are looking for angreal and sa'angreal. Rand found the man in Tear. Why Rhavin did not use it but instead left in the store rooms. Surely he could have gotten it if he wanted it?

 

We definitely don't seem to have seen everything there is to know about Rhuidean.  I'm sure it's not the big thing, but this tidbit struck me recently on my reread:

 

"Change," Rhuarc said. "You know he brings change, Amys. It is wondering what change, and how, that makes us like children alone in the dark. Since it must be, let it begin now. No two clan chiefs I have spoken with have seen through the exactly same eyes, Rand, or exactly the same things, until the sharing of water, and the meeting where the Agreement of Rhuidean was made. Whether it is the same for Wise Ones, I do not

know, but I suspect it is. I think it is a matter of bloodlines. I believe I saw through the eyes of my ancestors, and you yours."

 

The bloodlines thing has been discussed to death, of course, but what I found interesting about the text above was that the Agreement of Rhuidean was the first thing Rand saw.  He saw nothing before that point, and implication from Rhuarc's comment is that other clan chiefs have seen more recent events in the Aiel history going through Rhuidean than Rand was privileged to see.

 

This, by far, one of the finest catches I've ever seen. There might be more too it (most likely is), but I doubt it the BUT (it was not repeated again and again). But than who know? :)

[Crael123]

I still believe it's the fat man angreal.

 

did rand have the angreal when he was captured?

[jwillis7]

it does not say it just says that he does not know where it is after he gets out and is sure it should be in the wagons.  That would mean he got it in 4 and lost it in 6 so...

[Sharaman]

I still believe it's the fat man angreal.

 

did rand have the angreal when he was captured?

It was in his coat I think, but it's not clear whether it went with him to Dumai's Wells or was simply abandoned in the throne room when he was shielded and kidnapped. He couldn't find it after the battle.

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

The fat man angreal would be kinda lame though but its very easily might be it. I ashamed I didn't cope it and kudos to whom ever did.

[Calderis]

I believe her purpose in sending away Luc was to help ensure that there would be a succession conflict in Caemlyn since his sister Tigraine and he would both be gone - which directly led to Morgase gaining the throne and Elayne being born (since Taringail Damodred only married Morgase b/c she was queen). Taken with Elaida's foretelling about the royal line of Andor being the key to winning Tarmon Gai'don, this has some interesting implications - perhaps Rand and Elayne's children will be important.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I always thought with the timing (from Elaida's POVs) of the foretelling, that the one about the royal line was actually in reference to Rand still. She says she had the foretelling in one of her POVs, the the succesion war happened and as soon as Morgase was the clear top dog she attached herself.

 

That means when she had the fortelling Tigraine was still the rightful heir even if she wasn't present, and that would make the foretelling completely true in that everything rode on the Royal line, i.e. The Dreagon Reborn.

[mossman87]

The fat man angreal would be kinda lame though but its very easily might be it. I ashamed I didn't cope it and kudos to whom ever did.

 

I remember when RJ talked about how a huge travesty happened because of the cleansing of Saidin, and there was theorycrafting forever on it, and it turned out to be the Amayar committing mass-suicide and everyone was like, "Uh, that's it?".  These things brew and sometimes get bigger than they really are, at least in our minds.

 

Anyways:

 

# TSR,Ch22  - Rand  finds the little fat man in the Great Holding in the Stone of Tear. He uses it to draw enough of the One Power  to transport his entire party from Tear to Chaendaer  via Portal Stone.

# TSR,Ch57 - Rand uses the little fat man angreal when he channels a rainstorm at Alcair Dal.

# TSR,Ch58 - Rand uses the little fat man angreal to tap slightly more of the One Power and sever Asmodean from the Dark One.

# TFoH,Ch6 - Rand takes the little fat man with him when he feels the evil of the approaching Darkhounds.

# TFoH,Ch21 - Rand uses the little fat man to help make a ward that covers his entire camp. He does not have to actually touch the angreal to use it.

# TFoH,Ch44 - Rand uses the little fat man for reserve strength in the battle for Cairhien.

# TFoH,Ch55 - Rand has his little fat man angreal with him when he goes after Rahvin.

# LoC,Ch10 - Rand takes the little fat man with him when he goes to meet Alanna and Verin at Culain's Hound.

# LoC,Ch41 - Rand keeps his little fat man angreal in his coat pocket.

# LoC,Ch49 - Lews Therin panics when he hears there are seven Aes Sedai coming. He calms down when Rand thinks of the little fat man angreal.

# LoC,Ch51 - Rand is wearing his red coat when he is kidnapped. Is the little fat man in the coat pocket?

# LoC,Ch53 - Rand is in his shirt-sleeves in the box. He does not have the little fat man.

# ACoS,Ch3 - Rand searches in vain for the little fat man angreal in the aftermath of Dumai's Wells.

 

4 - 6 with a mention in 7 that it's gone, it has to be somewhere.

[Owayn The Traveller]

-Rand has a hole in his pocket and the fat man falls out.

-Taim picks up the fat man.

-Taim turns out to be a Verin like double agent and survives the last battle because of the fat man.

-Taim and the fat man go down in legend as heroes.

-Taim feels he cannot live up to everyone expectations of him even with the fat man.

-Taim decides to leave Randland forever and takes the fat man with him.*

-Taim uses the fat man to utilise a portal stone.

-Taim and the fat man end p in our world.

-Taim realises he cannot channel any more and also that the fat man is no longer an angreal but an actual fat man.

-Taim changes his name to Jake in order to make a break from his old life. The fat man does not change his name as he has no life to break from and also has next to no imagination.

-Jake (formally Taim) and the fat man (formally a fat man angreal) become TV actors and scripters in there own show 'Taim is the dragon reborn and not a dark-friend'.

-Jake and the fat man are sued for copyright infringements but that okay as their are discovered and go on to become TV superstars in Jake and the Fat Man.

-Rand wonders where his fat man is and writes a book called 'Taim - A Man misunderstood'

 

*Taim got his pockets checked by a tailor.

 

 

Also sorry for the lack of chuckles in this post, of this post  8)

[porus]

The fat man angreal is indeed a mystery, and its fate may be far from inconsequential when we consider that Rand has now destroyed his access key to the ChoKal, leaving him angreal-less. Isn't the fat man the only saidin angreal we have seen in the entire series? Both callandor and the ChoKal are sa'angreal, and now one of those is destroyed and the other has bad voodoo.

 

I have my skepticisms, but the fat man angreal seems to fit the criteria for the Big Thing. It's reapparence in the hands of an enemy may motivate Rand to seek out the mystical 'second saidin sa'angreal more powerful than callandor' mentioned by Lanfear. Or it may motivate him to finally crack the secret of Callandor itself. With the possibility that Rand is no longer the most powerful male channeler alive (now that ChoKal is dead), there is motive.

 

If we are to see the fat man again, it is likely either in the hands of a male forsaken, or the black tower has acquired it, and the most likely candidate there is Taim.

 

For an inanimate object, the fat man surely did have a lot of character development to simply be 'lost in the dirt on the road to Tar Valon.' If we treat the fat man as a character, the law of conservation of characters makes it likely that if a male channeler is to appear in the next books with an angreal, that angreal will be the fat man.

[Chevron07]

I think it's about time for a re-read, but I think that I remember a mention at one point that there are ter'angreal that can be used by non-channelers. Is it possible that one of the main non-channeling characters has one that is being used off screen with just hints scattered about?

[algspkr]

The fat man angreal is indeed a mystery, and its fate may be far from inconsequential when we consider that Rand has now destroyed his access key to the ChoKal, leaving him angreal-less. Isn't the fat man the only saidin angreal we have seen in the entire series? Both callandor and the ChoKal are sa'angreal, and now one of those is destroyed and the other has bad voodoo.

 

I have my skepticisms, but the fat man angreal seems to fit the criteria for the Big Thing. It's reapparence in the hands of an enemy may motivate Rand to seek out the mystical 'second saidin sa'angreal more powerful than callandor' mentioned by Lanfear. Or it may motivate him to finally crack the secret of Callandor itself. With the possibility that Rand is no longer the most powerful male channeler alive (now that ChoKal is dead), there is motive.

 

If we are to see the fat man again, it is likely either in the hands of a male forsaken, or the black tower has acquired it, and the most likely candidate there is Taim.

 

For an inanimate object, the fat man surely did have a lot of character development to simply be 'lost in the dirt on the road to Tar Valon.' If we treat the fat man as a character, the law of conservation of characters makes it likely that if a male channeler is to appear in the next books with an angreal, that angreal will be the fat man.

 

Another was hinted at in TEotW when Rand (and maybe Mat) was talking with Damon, but that is the only one we have seen in use.

[metallicafan08]

I think in tGH theres a POV with Domon, it's when darkfriends are on his back trying to get him to sail east so they can search his ship and retrieve one of the seals to the dark one's prison that Domon has. In that POV Domon talks about all the little treasures hes picked up over the years (Including the seal) and he says he has a little statue of a man with a sword I think, he says that the man who sold it to him said that if you held the statue for a while it would make you feel warm.  Domon thinks how it never worked for him or any of his crew.  Now i assumed that meant that the man who sold it to him could channel and that the statue of the man with the sword was a male a'ngreal?  What do we think?

[dumont76]

I remember when RJ talked about how a huge travesty happened because of the cleansing of Saidin, and there was theorycrafting forever on it, and it turned out to be the Amayar committing mass-suicide and everyone was like, "Uh, that's it?".  These things brew and sometimes get bigger than they really are, at least in our minds.

 

I recall that as well. I seem to remember RJ being upset with people for not feeling bad about it...how do you feel bad for non-developed masses of characters, like we had no humanity.  If that's the BUT, I'll eat my hat  ;D

[firstfishman]

Perrin shoots "Lord Luc" with an arrow through the chest, and he rides away into the unknown. Where did he go? What part does he have yet to play?

[Emily_Sedai]

 

Hmm, throwing something out to the field...  I did a quick search, but this thread is so large, that I'm not sure if it has been discussed or not yet. 

 

Have we ever asked how Taim knew the weave to detect a male who can learn to channel? 

 

Three possibilities for how he learned it:

 

1)  He fumbled onto it somehow.  The only issue I have with this however, is that the test took time to conduct, and I can't imagine someone fumbling on a weave, and deciding to stare at random men for hours on end with it and suddenly noticing that the other can channel.  (ie, even if he discovered the weave, he'd have no idea what it did.)

 

2)  Someone taught it to him.  Okay, no male AS for ages, so the only candidates could be the male Chosen.  Now, could we see a scenario where one of the chosen would teach that particular weave to Taim?  We know the Chosen are very selective in the knowledge they 'dole out,' and perfer keeping their underlings ignorant more times than not.  In addition, with the little amount of Taim would have had to learn after being freed from the Aes Sedai, I'm not seeing that particular weave as a priority.  Taim also states that he knew the weave while he was still acting as a false dragon, since he found other males that could channel. 

 

3)  Like Rand, he is 'insane' to some degree, and hearing voices from the last turning of the wheel, and the voice provided the knowledge.  Now, Rand was confused about how Taim managed to hold back the taint for so long, and we've all assumed it was because he has the protection of the dark one.  Is that necessarily the case, or might Taim be as looney as a 20 year mental patient, and just hiding it?

 

What do you guys think?   

[Ashaman Drasil]

 

Hmm, throwing something out to the field...  I did a quick search, but this thread is so large, that I'm not sure if it has been discussed or not yet. 

 

Have we ever asked how Taim knew the weave to detect a male who can learn to channel? 

 

Three possibilities for how he learned it:

 

1)  He fumbled onto it somehow.  The only issue I have with this however, is that the test took time to conduct, and I can't imagine someone fumbling on a weave, and deciding to stare at random men for hours on end with it and suddenly noticing that the other can channel.  (ie, even if he discovered the weave, he'd have no idea what it did.)

 

2)  Someone taught it to him.  Okay, no male AS for ages, so the only candidates could be the male Chosen.  Now, could we see a scenario where one of the chosen would teach that particular weave to Taim?  We know the Chosen are very selective in the knowledge they 'dole out,' and perfer keeping their underlings ignorant more times than not.  In addition, with the little amount of Taim would have had to learn after being freed from the Aes Sedai, I'm not seeing that particular weave as a priority.  Taim also states that he knew the weave while he was still acting as a false dragon, since he found other males that could channel. 

 

3)  Like Rand, he is 'insane' to some degree, and hearing voices from the last turning of the wheel, and the voice provided the knowledge.  Now, Rand was confused about how Taim managed to hold back the taint for so long, and we've all assumed it was because he has the protection of the dark one.  Is that necessarily the case, or might Taim be as looney as a 20 year mental patient, and just hiding it?

 

What do you guys think?   

I think that he could of copied it from the aes sedai remeber that moraine did something close to it with equeene  in book one with her KO'di necklace his is just using a variation using a flame and haveing him make a resonce so he could of stumbled on to it but it semes taim is a new dreadlord so he could of been taught

[Dreamwalker]

I think it's about time for a re-read, but I think that I remember a mention at one point that there are ter'angreal that can be used by non-channelers. Is it possible that one of the main non-channeling characters has one that is being used off screen with just hints scattered about?

 

Well Mat uses that foxhead ter'angreal all the time. Other than that, I kind of doubt it, but it is an interesting idea.