The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[garion]

I believe its in book 6, but don't we see that Fain has developed he powers and all he has to do to corrupt a person is touch them.  That's what he did to Elaida and Pedron Niall so not only is he a what ever the DO did to him but also a combo of Mordeth and Machin Shin

[Damodred]

Ok, may be crazy, and sorry if this has already been brought up.. But I'm reading The Shadow Rising and there's the interesting part where Brigitte is helping Perrin in the wolf dream after slayer pussyfoots into the Tower.. She talks about it like she knows not only the way in, but the way one must cheat in order to beat the Snake and Fox people on their home field.  Is it me or is Mat and Co headed on a crash course with good ol Silverbow as we speak heading into Caemlyn, perhaps she'll spill the beans this time to Mat? Just a thought..

[Sharaman]

Interesting thought - but does it belong in this thread or either the Mat plotline or Tower of Midnight speculation threads?

 

[Damodred]

Of course it belongs in this thread!  It's the difference between Mat and Co going in blind or going in with the tricks up their sleeve to win. That's pretty big in my books.

[thewalrus777]

Very interesting seeing as Mat will know exactly who Birgitte is, as soon as he sees her. And once he reveals his plan to rescue Moiraine from the ToG, Birgitte will probably speak up.

[Spilt-pea Soup]

Does anyone else think that Mat's luck is due to Shadar Logoth/Mordeth and not solely his ta'veren? 

 

I am re-reading TSR and came across a quote where Lord Luc remarked on how incredible Fain's luck was....and of course, if it's merely ta'veren, wouldn't Perrin and Rand be as lucky, or maybe even more so? 

[Sharaman]

Of course it belongs in this thread!  It's the difference between Mat and Co going in blind or going in with the tricks up their sleeve to win. That's pretty big in my books.

 

Sure if Brigitte knows a way in and out of ToG and she tells Mat, that's useful and of course, "it's pretty big in (your) books".

But it doesn't fit the description of the BuT as described by Brandon.

It's not a small thing " that's been going on since Book IV-VI" - it's a sharp observation that you've picked up from one incident.

 

[Blackhoof]

Does anyone else think that Mat's luck is due to Shadar Logoth/Mordeth and not solely his ta'veren? 

 

I am re-reading TSR and came across a quote where Lord Luc remarked on how incredible Fain's luck was....and of course, if it's merely ta'veren, wouldn't Perrin and Rand be as lucky, or maybe even more so? 

 

I dont, for one, but a number of people do.

[jwillis7]

But Rand is lucky, when they had to pick which symbol to use on the portal, and Mat told him he is lucky and he could flip a coin to find out which one it was.  Right before Mat looks at the coin Rand picks the one it is and tells Mat that if it works for Mat it has to work for Rand too.

[Crael123]

But Rand is lucky, when they had to pick which symbol to use on the portal, and Mat told him he is lucky and he could flip a coin to find out which one it was.  Right before Mat looks at the coin Rand picks the one it is and tells Mat that if it works for Mat it has to work for Rand too.

 

also in PoD when the assassin tried to kill Rand from like 10 feet away and missed

[Spilt-pea Soup]

But Rand is lucky, when they had to pick which symbol to use on the portal, and Mat told him he is lucky and he could flip a coin to find out which one it was.  Right before Mat looks at the coin Rand picks the one it is and tells Mat that if it works for Mat it has to work for Rand too.

 

also in PoD when the assassin tried to kill Rand from like 10 feet away and missed

 

So you're saying that Padan Fain must be ta'varen?  ;)

 

I think there is the ta'varent luck and then Mat's luck, the dice-rolling luck in circumstances which aren't even important (gambling).  This luck he got from SL and is exhibited by Fain as pointed out by Lord Luc in TSR. 

[jwillis7]

i'm not saying that, Fain is no where near as lucky as Mat or Rand.  I just think the Fain we have now is very driven and smart.  He is scared of nothing and answers to no one so he does not act like anyone expects.  I don't think he is ta'veren or think the blade did anything to Mats luck. so i dont know...

[dholm]

Ok, may be crazy, and sorry if this has already been brought up.. But I'm reading The Shadow Rising and there's the interesting part where Brigitte is helping Perrin in the wolf dream after slayer pussyfoots into the Tower.. She talks about it like she knows not only the way in, but the way one must cheat in order to beat the Snake and Fox people on their home field.  Is it me or is Mat and Co headed on a crash course with good ol Silverbow as we speak heading into Caemlyn, perhaps she'll spill the beans this time to Mat? Just a thought..

 

Olver seems to be Birgitte's mouthpiece regarding the Tower of Ghenjei.

[Sharaman]

Ok, may be crazy, and sorry if this has already been brought up.. But I'm reading The Shadow Rising and there's the interesting part where Brigitte is helping Perrin in the wolf dream after slayer pussyfoots into the Tower.. She talks about it like she knows not only the way in, but the way one must cheat in order to beat the Snake and Fox people on their home field.  Is it me or is Mat and Co headed on a crash course with good ol Silverbow as we speak heading into Caemlyn, perhaps she'll spill the beans this time to Mat? Just a thought..

 

Olver seems to be Birgitte's mouthpiece regarding the Tower of Ghenjei.

Brigitte, ToG, and related subjects hacve already been ruled out by the theoryland lists.

 

[Spilt-pea Soup]

BS made some comment about how he and Harriet were worried continued discussion of this topic would spoil the BUT for readers in the next book.  A lot of these suggestions, if true, wouldn't exactly be a spoiler.  I mean, if I knew right now for sure that Birgitte was going to tell Mat how to solve the Snake and Foxes riddle to rescue Moiraine, I wouldn't feel like anything had been spoiled. 

[Caveman_Nick]

This is a biiiig thread, so hopefully I can be forgiven if this is already mentioned.

 

I think the big thing in books 4-6 that's going unnoticed is Centered on Padan Fain.

 

He obviously has his own agenda, and has broken free of the Dark One,which nobody ever does (In TSR, he is referred to as "the renegade").  He has some powers that do not have to do with the OP as far as is mentioned (LOC in Caemlyn, when he touches the young boy and reflects that he doesn't understand what he just did), and that he does not understand.  He kicks halfmen and trollocs around like they were kittens.

 

I think that his role as an antagonist is kept at an undertone versus the role of the DO and his minions as antagonists because at this time that is how the power of Fain compared to the DO, but he has enough power to rip servants away from the DO (such as the Halfman sitting on the bed in Caemlyn when he drags the boy's mother away for his amusements)

 

I think that somehow Fain is going to be critical to the defeat of the DO and Tarmon Gaidin because Fain IS the next Dark One, or perhaps the DO will be severly weakend at TG, but Fain gets sealed up with him and somehow the combination of their essence grows to be the next power of the shadow.

 

 

While the rote for the entire series has been that the Dark One and All of the Forsaken were bound by the Creator at the time of Creation in Shayol Ghul, we know definitively that this is not true.  Lews Therin sealed the Forsaken in Shayol Ghul, and we know they had lives in the AOL before turning to the Shadow.

 

Somehow the DO's power and influence has to cycle up and down throughout the turnings of the wheel or the world would be overwhelmed, the pattern unraveled, and the wheel broken, and I think that Fain is key to that cycle.

 

As an aside, considering that Rand is very smart in how he removed the taint from the OP, I would not be surprised to see him find a way to use Machin Shin and the taint on the Ways as a part of this process, using the power of Shadow to fight Shadow.  We have seen him do this twice now in the last 2 books, when he used the taint in Shadar Logoth to oppose the taint in the Source, and when he accessed the TP to BF Semirhage.  I think that somehow we will see Rand do this again in the last battle.

 

Just a crazy theory, without much time to dig through books to support it, but having just reread those books in the search for the big secret, this is what I came up with :)

 

EDIT:  One more thing about this...Fain has been set up since the first book, and by the DO himself, as a direct antithesis to Rand.  Sure, he hates Perrin and Mat too, but it's really all about Rand.  It's just another point that makes sense in considering him as the birth of an evil power that will cycle back against Rand in the turning of the wheel.

[wingedearth]

I think that somehow Fain is going to be critical to the defeat of the DO and Tarmon Gaidin because Fain IS the next Dark One, or perhaps the DO will be severly weakend at TG, but Fain gets sealed up with him and somehow the combination of their essence grows to be the next power of the shadow.

 

While the rote for the entire series has been that the Dark One and All of the Forsaken were bound by the Creator at the time of Creation in Shayol Ghul, we know definitively that this is not true.  Lews Therin sealed the Forsaken in Shayol Ghul, and we know they had lives in the AOL before turning to the Shadow.

 

Somehow the DO's power and influence has to cycle up and down throughout the turnings of the wheel or the world would be overwhelmed, the pattern unraveled, and the wheel broken, and I think that Fain is key to that cycle.

 

Your theories are interesting and plausible, except that I think possibly the Forsaken WERE bound in Shayol Ghul at the time of Creation, but the original Forsaken were likely killed by the original Dragon, but later reborn or substituted as the Wheel turned.

 

It would be interesting if the Dark One were somehow replaced by Mordeth who would become the new Dark One (presumably as Mordeth's powers expand exponentially). But maybe Mordeth isn't in the same league.

[Caveman_Nick]

I think that somehow Fain is going to be critical to the defeat of the DO and Tarmon Gaidin because Fain IS the next Dark One, or perhaps the DO will be severly weakend at TG, but Fain gets sealed up with him and somehow the combination of their essence grows to be the next power of the shadow.

 

While the rote for the entire series has been that the Dark One and All of the Forsaken were bound by the Creator at the time of Creation in Shayol Ghul, we know definitively that this is not true.  Lews Therin sealed the Forsaken in Shayol Ghul, and we know they had lives in the AOL before turning to the Shadow.

 

Somehow the DO's power and influence has to cycle up and down throughout the turnings of the wheel or the world would be overwhelmed, the pattern unraveled, and the wheel broken, and I think that Fain is key to that cycle.

 

Your theories are interesting and plausible, except that I think possibly the Forsaken WERE bound in Shayol Ghul at the time of Creation, but the original Forsaken were likely killed by the original Dragon, but later reborn or substituted as the Wheel turned.

 

It would be interesting if the Dark One were somehow replaced by Mordeth who would become the new Dark One (presumably as Mordeth's powers expand exponentially). But maybe Mordeth isn't in the same league.

 

Well....let me add this:

 

The Forsaken are just as tied to the WOT as everyone else, but then I am not sure that the Forsaken as individuals repeat as much as the forsaken as a concept of top minions repeats.  But as far as their being bound, it is demonstrated fairly strongly throughout the series that the Forsaken were not bound in the AOL, but rather turned to the Shadow.  So I guess what I am saying is that there are at least periods of time in the turning of the wheel when there are no Forsaken.  The time prior to Ishamael's turning being one of those periods.  Also, with several of the forsaken being BF'd, that lends to the idea that the Forsaken might not be the kind of repeaters as a whole that The Champion (Lews Therin, Rand) are.

 

Also, If Fain becomes bound in Shayol Ghul, there is all that "Essence of the Dark One" that's deep in the rocks in the same fashion that the taint of Mordeth was in Shadar Logoth.  It's just a matter of scale, and in the DO's prison Fain would be subject to that scale.

[rane008]

Ok, I'll chime in here.  Was going back through TSR, and something struck me.  After Nyn shields and wraps here, Mog starts babbling about the stuff she can teach her.  One of the things she seems to allude to is that other planets were colonized by the AS in the AOL.  Nyn cuts her off, but I'm wondering.  During the WOP, what happened on those planets, assuming Mog is telling the truth.  The assumption is that the AS Traveled there, but I guess another way to access them is through Portal Stones.  In any event, this is an "unnoticed thing" I believe, and I certainly have never seen any extensive discussion of it.  

 

Now, let me preempt the responses.  I have NO IDEA what this could mean for AMOL.  Could it be a source of additional Dark Armies?  Is it where Demandred is?  Also, let me say that that would pretty much be "jumping the shark" for me.  I wouldn't like it, but it is worth mentioning.

 

BTW, since the Sharans are the only ones to breed for the power, that may be a source of chanellers (and powerful ones at that) for the Shadow.  If Dem is there, that is.  Once again, something that hasn't been discussed much.  

[lillcheese]

BS made some comment about how he and Harriet were worried continued discussion of this topic would spoil the BUT for readers in the next book.  A lot of these suggestions, if true, wouldn't exactly be a spoiler.  I mean, if I knew right now for sure that Birgitte was going to tell Mat how to solve the Snake and Foxes riddle to rescue Moiraine, I wouldn't feel like anything had been spoiled. 

 

So that means we will definitely get it in ToM?  Yay! I don't think I could stand reading speculation through AMoL.

 

How many more pages of posts do we have to get before this beats Asmodean?

[dflinn]

BS made some comment about how he and Harriet were worried continued discussion of this topic would spoil the BUT for readers in the next book.  A lot of these suggestions, if true, wouldn't exactly be a spoiler.  I mean, if I knew right now for sure that Birgitte was going to tell Mat how to solve the Snake and Foxes riddle to rescue Moiraine, I wouldn't feel like anything had been spoiled. 

 

So that means we will definitely get it in ToM?  Yay! I don't think I could stand reading speculation through AMoL.

 

How many more pages of posts do we have to get before this beats Asmodean?

about 10k more pages considering there were 100's of Asmo threads

[trusken]

Rane008 brought up something I was going to, and here is the exact quote out of TSR, Chap 54: Into the Palace, page 909 in my paperback edition;

 

    Moghedian smiled and took a step nearer. "...travel to other worlds, even worlds in the sky. Do you know that the stars are..."

 

This was when Nyn and Mog were having their power struggle in the Panarch's museum near the cuendillar objects and the dinosaur bones. Space travel was mentioned before in an obscure reference to Neil Armstrong's moon landing. Now what this means is beyond me, so I'll pass the ball onto the rest of you to discuss ;D.

[Elwynn]

First, I was so going to put the other worlds thing at the end of this post. But low and behold I was beat to it. I do think that is a very interesting option. Just finished TSR again and found a part near the beginning I can't explain, and I can't find any forums with it either. Let me know if it's been beat to death or someone knows the answer.

US paperback on page 181, Rand is talking to Selene, this is just before he finds out it's Lanfear.

 

""I go where I wish to be." She frowned at his face. "You have been marked, but no matter. You were mine, and you are mine. Any other is no more than a caretaker whose time has passed. I will lay claim to what is mine openly, now."

He stared at her. Marked? Did she mean his hands? And what did she mean, he was hers? "Selene," he said gently, "we had pleasant days together--and hard days; I'll never forget your courage, or your help--but there was never more between us than companionship. We traveled together, but that was the end of it. You will stay here in the stone..."

"You have been marked." She smiled wryly."

 

How was he marked? And who would have done it? Moraine maybe. She can tell by looking at his face, which reminds me of the mark SH puts on the Keeper. It seems like she's talking about a woman marking him though. Maybe Moraine did lay something on him that will help when she returns (I'm confident Mat will get her out). Just wondering, can't find an answer anywhere.

I think the other worlds thing is good thought too, this thread has about every idea possible though. Tried to read it all, might have missed this already being said.

[edub]

I was reading through Shadow Rising and came accross a part where the aiel dreamwalkers are taking to Nyn or Elayne and they ask them if its possible to pull someone into the world of dreams and they say that it is something evil that happened in the last days of teh War of Power and its certainly the last days of this age so I figure maybe something like this will happen it would be a good way to get at certain ppl like min for example who know nothing of the world of dreams

[Dreamwalker]

US paperback on page 181, Rand is talking to Selene, this is just before he finds out it's Lanfear.

 

""I go where I wish to be." She frowned at his face. "You have been marked, but no matter. You were mine, and you are mine. Any other is no more than a caretaker whose time has passed. I will lay claim to what is mine openly, now."

He stared at her. Marked? Did she mean his hands? And what did she mean, he was hers? "Selene," he said gently, "we had pleasant days together--and hard days; I'll never forget your courage, or your help--but there was never more between us than companionship. We traveled together, but that was the end of it. You will stay here in the stone..."

"You have been marked." She smiled wryly."

 

How was he marked? And who would have done it? Moraine maybe. She can tell by looking at his face, which reminds me of the mark SH puts on the Keeper. It seems like she's talking about a woman marking him though. Maybe Moraine did lay something on him that will help when she returns (I'm confident Mat will get her out). Just wondering, can't find an answer anywhere.

I think the other worlds thing is good thought too, this thread has about every idea possible though. Tried to read it all, might have missed this already being said.

 

I'm pretty sure the "mark" Lanfear is referring to is the other women making a mark on Rand's heart or marking him for themselves - in this case probably Elayne since Rand has been making out with her in the Stone earlier in the same chapter. Her remarks seem to stem out of jealousy, but confident that he will be hers again. The "You have been marked" statement seems to confirm this as it's made in response to Rand trying to convince "Selene" that there was never anything more than friendship between them. His statements are like a guy trying to let a girl that's got a crush on him down easy since he's interested in someone else.