The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[NetSlider]

Was reading another post it something came up (I think it was mentioned before here). Verin warns Perrin about Allana (and we know that Veris is BA now). She also was thinking about killing Cad before she was sure Cad was not BA. Can it be as simple as Allana being BA? But than in their conversation after Rand's bonding she does not think or says anything about it. Just a thought.

[Sharaman]

Egwene doesn't mention the name either when she's thinking of Verin's list.

[rhadamanthus]

This thread is huge and I am way late to it, but another guess is that it concerns the stash of angreal from Rhuidean.

 

I don't think that fits well with the "ongoing" trait, but there it is

[Dreamwalker]

:D

From Elayne's POV, unless Moiraine knew something, these finder's wear off after awhile.

Moiraine said she would always be able to find them, but did it really last that long? Did she believe she would be with them so long that it would wear off.

Her mission would have been to get them to safety, discover who was the DR, and prepare the WT for him.

 

I don't know if he is joking, that is why I asked. :-\

 

I think Moiraine does say that the Finder weakens after a time. But I also didn't mean that Moiraine had put the Finder on him - I meant that Lanfear did, since she'd been traveling around with that Darkfriend he got the hat from and was there when he bought it. Motives: she knows he's one of the ta'veren they're all supposed to be after and she knows he's often near Rand. The reason she hasn't really been able to use the Finder yet is because she's been in Finnland/been mindtrapped pretty much the whole time since then.

 

Also - I know the hat is a really far out there theory, but I threw it in pretty much because everything else seems to have already been discussed so much before tGS that I think Brandon would have seen it.

[Dreamwalker]

Was reading another post it something came up (I think it was mentioned before here). Verin warns Perrin about Allana (and we know that Veris is BA now). She also was thinking about killing Cad before she was sure Cad was not BA. Can it be as simple as Allana being BA? But than in their conversation after Rand's bonding she does not think or says anything about it. Just a thought.

 

I'm pretty sure Verin's warning to Perrin was about exactly what Alanna did end up doing to Rand - that she might try to bond Perrin, even against his will. She did seem to have her eye on him quite a lot, she's a green, and I think Verin knew her well enough to know she might try it.

[NetSlider]

These are items in posts up to 138 from theory land that have been ruled out, as stated earlier in this post, i listed them on lunch break

 

Moggy creating Bridgette

Lilwein Shipless

Egwene’s Use of need in TAR

Nynaeve and Elyane using Need in TAR

Fel talking with Rand

Farstrider in Grendals lair

The Tinker’s Song

Message in blood from the Tinkers to “Tell the Dragon Reborn”

Demandred Massing Armies

Perrin and Finnland

The Ghoolam

Demandred’s interaction with the DO

Sistters sent to recapture Taim

Rest of the 13 BA

Who killed Sahra Covenry

Graendel meeting with Ilutrade

Doorway Ter”angreal

Fel’s Note to Min

TO live you must become Morridin “Die”

Morroianes wishes to the Finn

Rand’s Effect on the Weather “The Fisher King Theme”

The sword “Justice”

Taim Setting up the BT

The BA setting up Taim as the Dragon

War in Shara

Mind Traps

Moirraines Letters to Tom and Rand

Why Matt got the Ashandarei

Matt’s medallion

Avendesora

Missing Theodrin

 

If your path has anything to do with these items, your heading the wrong way

 

Figured it might be a good idea to refresh the discussion :)

[Sharaman]

I think Moiraine does say that the Finder weakens after a time. But I also didn't mean that Moiraine had put the Finder on him - I meant that Lanfear did, since she'd been traveling around with that Darkfriend he got the hat from and was there when he bought it. Motives: she knows he's one of the ta'veren they're all supposed to be after and she knows he's often near Rand. The reason she hasn't really been able to use the Finder yet is because she's been in Finnland/been mindtrapped pretty much the whole time since then.

 

Also - I know the hat is a really far out there theory, but I threw it in pretty much because everything else seems to have already been discussed so much before tGS that I think Brandon would have seen it.

 

Lanfear sold him the hat herself. But if it's a finder, it was either attuned to Lanfear herself in her own body and hence, it's useless. Or it's not a finder. Moridin wants Mat dead and Moridin owns Cyndane. So if she could find and kill Mat, she would already have done so.

 

[Vulgir]

Also it wouldnt matter, because Ish/ morridin/ others can track Tav'aran

[aemonkristen]

I haven't done a re-read recently, but it strikes me as curious that the Ogier haven't been mentioned by anyone. They were having the Great Stump (or something like that) the last time we heard of them and Loial went off to speak in favor of standing with the humans. Ideas anyone?

[BladeDancer]

Maybe it is to do with the Aiel trying to assassinate Mat by using a Gateway and sneaking into the middle of his camp. This took place in LOC Ch22. Now we know that the Aiel cannot Travel so this brings up several possibilities.

 

a) The Aiel were Darkfriends and one of the Forsaken wanted Mat dead and used the Aiel to do it. It seems likely that Sammael would want Mat dead as he would have heard that Mat was on his way to take control of the army to invade Illian. Although if this was the case it makes you wonder why Sammael did not just try to kill Mat himself - he would surely have been able to succeed being the only Channeller around. OK Matt has a medallion that protects him from the OP but that is a secret that iirc only Moraine and Rand know. Perhaps using Aiel would have enabled Sammael to keep a truce with Rand by denying involvement. Still it seems strange to use Aiel.

 

b) The Aiel were Shaido. They would clearly like to kill Mat as he killed Couladin. But they have no Travelling capability. We know that by this time the Shaido had made an alliance of sorts with at least one forsaken (possibly Demandred). Maybe this Forsaken had helped the Shaido to get revenge on Matt by opening a Gateway so they can attack him.

 

Either way, it still leaves the following mystery. How did the Forsaken opening the Gateway. know where Mat was? The Gateway was opened right next to Mat's tent. This points to either the Hat being a Finder as above posters have mentioned or there being a traitor Darkfriend in the Band of the Red Hand.

 

It has to be said though that Rand was able to open a Gateway to Mat's location some days later. So maybe there is some way he has to locate Matt - some sort of Ta'varen guidance?

 

What do folks think about these issues?

[witsd]

OK, the Aviendha-gateway thing has been stuck in my head for a while now.

 

Plenty of characters puzzle weaves out throughout the series, but are there any instances of them just knowing how to weave something instinctually, aside from Rand, who knows them from a past life?

 

The only thing I can compare it with is when wilders first start to channel unknowingly for things that they want, and that doesn't really fit with Avi, who had been channelling for a while at this point.

 

If there's nothing else comparable, this does suggest that Avi is someone reborn, no?

 

And if that is the case, should the LTT aspect of Rand's mind recognise this if it is someone he knew, or not?

[Talitha]

This thread is huge and I am way late to it...

 

Ditto...This thread is huge, and I haven't been reading all of it.. I tried to do a search on this topic, but I didn't find anything...and I see the post a few posts back about it not having to do with Doorway Ter'Angreal...this theory might touch on that... But I'll give it a go anyways.

 

I've been re-reading book 4 (well listening to the audio books this time around), and the bells tolling when Mat is in the Twisted Doorway ter'angreal struck me as odd.

 

Each time the Bell tolls, it happens to be right when Mat receives an answer, I'm thinking RJ was trying to make it seem like the bells were linked to Mats questions... However, right after each bell, the Snake People make a comment about "the strain being too great" or something similar.  If you read the section again, it seems to me that each time a bell tolls perhaps someone new has entered their realm.  In total the bell tolls 3 times.

 

A little later, Mat leaves the doorway, and then Rand, and then Moiraine.... Could there have been a 4th person in the ter'angreal?  I'm pretty sure its obvious that having multiple people enter the ter'angreal causes "the strain" the Snake People feel, Moiraine seems to indicate that it was dangerous for them to all be in there.  And it seems to me that the Snake People become more agitated after each bell tolling, they urge Mat to hurry his questions and leave as soon as possible "before it is too late" (before someone else shows up in the room with their questions?).

 

So to sum it up... My guess is that the first time Mat hears the bell is when Rand (the second person) enters the doorway.

The second time Mat hears the bell is when Moiraine (the third person) enters the doorway.

The third bell that Mat hears...someone else (a fourth person) enters the doorway...?  Perhaps if Mat had stuck around a little bit longer, he would have seen a fourth person exiting from the door?  If so... who is that Fourth Person?  That's my guess regarding the big and unnoticed thing in books 4-6!

 

Well, feel free to shoot my theory down!  It has probably already been discussed somewhere that I am not aware of. In which case, sorry to waste your time. ^^

[Spilt-pea Soup]

Bells tolling--interesting.  Not sure that this would be "smack in your face" and something that could continue throughout the series and be as important as Asmodean's death.

 

Can Aviendha be Ilyena reborn? 

 

 

[shinerfan]

Does anyone remember when the Ogier Book of Translation was first mentioned?

[Luckers]

Does anyone remember when the Ogier Book of Translation was first mentioned?

 

Knife of Dreams.

[WolfDragonFox]

I know its off topic but man I can't wait to see Dan Dos Santos' Cover art for the Fires of Heaven ebook.  Greg Manchess...well I'll have to see because what I saw of his work doesn't really translate to anything I can envision for the Wheel of Time so far.  The only ebook cover art I really love so far is the TSR on by Adam Weber.  The other three are just okay and not really my cup of tea as far as the portrayals.  I like Donato Giancolo's concept just not the way he did that one, his other artwork is way better so it feels kind of jipped for TDR's cover art, definitely understand the concept for EotW but don't like it at all. 

[WolfDragonFox]

I have yet to start making my narrow downs of what is the currently unnoticed small leading to big thing in the books 4-6 because I got really busy and am struggling for time to just delve into it.  Only 10 chapters in and I have so much jotted down in my notebook.  All these little details just through this far so narrowing won't be easy when I get through all 3 books but thankfully or maybe not thankfully, a lot seems to be discardable because we've seen already what it leads to.  I just have to decipher if any of those are frequently talked about things.  Just an update.

[Bobbun]

Just some wild speculation here (maybe already mentioned, but I'm not going through ~150 pages tonight to check that, lol)...

 

I don't know exactly how it would tie in to books 4-6, but one thing that I have been thinking about as I've been going through my current reread is this:  I don't recall the power ever being used on an Ogier (my memory is known to be imperfect--please cite if I am forgetting something).  I do know that in The Shadow Rising, Loial received injuries defending The Stone and they were not healed by Moiraine, but the explanation given for this, that Moiraine had many others more injured to heal, is plausible.  Ogier live in steddings, for the most part, so naturally they're normally insulated from the possibility of someone using the power on them in their everyday lives, but even the few we've seen outside the stedding don't appear to have ever had the power used on them.  If my recollection is correct, Loial would be the only member of the adventuring party from The Eye of the World never to have been on the receiving end of the one power.

 

Is it possible that Ogier are naturally protected from the direct effects of the power, as though they had Mat's medallion?  If so, this would be profound enough to qualify as a big thing once it's revealed, and it would also be something that would be viewed with "I should have seen that coming" in retrospect.  It would also be an interesting connection between the properties of the Ogier and the properties of the places where they live.  Elyas Machera once said, "it's the stedding makes the Ogier, not the Ogier make the stedding."  Maybe he wasn't just talking about culture!

 

Of course, there could be other connections between the Ogier and the one power.  One item I have seen discussed briefly before, but that doesn't come up often, is the possibility of a connection between the longing and the taint on Saidin.  Ogier never had the longing prior to the advent of the Taint, and the cure for the Longing is to enter a stedding, where Saidin is not present.  Thus the possibility for a connection between these two misfortunes exists.  Whether this precludes protection from the direct effects of channelling the power, I don't know.

 

[Putty]

Just some wild speculation here (maybe already mentioned, but I'm not going through ~150 pages tonight to check that, lol)...

 

I don't know exactly how it would tie in to books 4-6, but one thing that I have been thinking about as I've been going through my current reread is this:  I don't recall the power ever being used on an Ogier (my memory is known to be imperfect--please cite if I am forgetting something).  I do know that in The Shadow Rising, Loial received injuries defending The Stone and they were not healed by Moiraine, but the explanation given for this, that Moiraine had many others more injured to heal, is plausible.  Ogier live in steddings, for the most part, so naturally they're normally insulated from the possibility of someone using the power on them in their everyday lives, but even the few we've seen outside the stedding don't appear to have ever had the power used on them.  If my recollection is correct, Loial would be the only member of the adventuring party from The Eye of the World never to have been on the receiving end of the one power.

 

Is it possible that Ogier are naturally protected from the direct effects of the power, as though they had Mat's medallion?  If so, this would be profound enough to qualify as a big thing once it's revealed, and it would also be something that would be viewed with "I should have seen that coming" in retrospect.  It would also be an interesting connection between the properties of the Ogier and the properties of the places where they live.  Elyas Machera once said, "it's the stedding makes the Ogier, not the Ogier make the stedding."  Maybe he wasn't just talking about culture!

 

Since the Seanchan armies regularly employ both channelers and Ogier, I would imagine the two have come into contact in battle before. That being so, I would think we would have heard about Ogiers' OP immunity from a Seanchan PoV by now if it existed.

[Bobbun]

Since the Seanchan armies regularly employ both channelers and Ogier, I would imagine the two have come into contact in battle before. That being so, I would think we would have heard about Ogiers' OP immunity from a Seanchan PoV by now if it existed.

 

Actually, I would think it would be more likely to hear about it from Aes Sedai who were observing Mat's medallion.  I can't really think of much reason for the Seanchan to think about it.  There aren't very many Gardeners, and the Deathwatch Guard generally isn't something most Seanchan want to be involved with.  If anything, the use of Ogier in that particular role in Seanchan society could be taken as evidence for the theory.  Someone who is immune to the effects of the power would have great value as a royal bodyguard in a society with lots of channelers trained to kill in use, and we know humans don't have that immunity.

[water_seeker]

Verin delves that Ogier that got caught by Machin Shin...As far as I know the delving she did would require the use of the powers used in healing (which always bothered me since they were in a Stedding at the time).

[Telamon7]

I don't know if it was ever discussed(new to the forums), and I don't remember if this was in books 4-6(I only own books 8-12), but in one of Min's POVs, wasn't it said the she had a viewing which suggested Rand could not win TG without Moiraine? I'm assuming she meant Moiraine because the quote was something like, " how could she tell him he couldn't win without a woman who was dead and gone ". Someone correct me if I'm wrong, it HAS been a while since I've had those early books. And it could have been mentioned somewhere else in the forums, as I said, I'm new here.

[ed2funy]

Verin delves that Ogier that got caught by Machin Shin...As far as I know the delving she did would require the use of the powers used in healing (which always bothered me since they were in a Stedding at the time).

 

She did nothing with the Power. I saw someone post a quote once by RJ iirc, that said she was just able to sense it. I forgot the exact reson, but it was nothing to do with the Power.

 

Welcome Telamon7! A few pages back is a list of things you could check, or wait for someone to come along and say yea or nay.

[Luckers]

Verin delves that Ogier that got caught by Machin Shin...As far as I know the delving she did would require the use of the powers used in healing (which always bothered me since they were in a Stedding at the time).

 

No, she doesn't. She feels his temperature. Those that have lost their souls feel cold in a very distinct way. It is something anyone can feel, and does not involve the power. We learn this in Winter's Heart chapter 5.

[Spilt-pea Soup]

I don't know if it was ever discussed(new to the forums), and I don't remember if this was in books 4-6(I only own books 8-12), but in one of Min's POVs, wasn't it said the she had a viewing which suggested Rand could not win TG without Moiraine? I'm assuming she meant Moiraine because the quote was something like, " how could she tell him he couldn't win without a woman who was dead and gone ". Someone correct me if I'm wrong, it HAS been a while since I've had those early books. And it could have been mentioned somewhere else in the forums, as I said, I'm new here.

 

I think everyone expects Moraine's return to be included in ToM, so yes, something unnoticed to do with Mo would fit the criterion, considering she disappeared in the right timefram, and the whole Aelfinn/Eelfinn thing came around too. 

 

There are a lot of fox/snake, thom/mat/moraine theories out there, and it's possible some detail or connection has been largely overlooked (hard to imagine how, with this crowd!)