The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Terez]

I posted an idea on the 'detail' at Theoryland.

 

Very well thought out. Very well stated and good evidence.

 

The only problems i see are these

 

1. She already marriend him, Matt is prince of the ravens. might have a hard time making him property.

I don't believe that she would try, as I stated in that post.  But if Mat were to get raven tattoos at Ghenjei, then he would be her property, by strong Seanchan law and custom.

 

2. It could have been just a tool to show how she might not accept his preposal' date=' while giving more incite into Tuon. Also it sounds alot like flirting, you know poke fun at the person you like.[/quote']

Her comments about buying him at first were serious I think, but yes, later on they were more her way of keeping the upper hand in the flirting, and no longer something she seriously considered.

 

3. Whats the point? So Tuon makes him a da'covle what is the point of it? And how is the magnitude similar to the Mistborn thing? You have stated only half a theory' date=' its like giving us directions without telling us where we will wind up.[/quote']

The point is the truce.  Tuon gave up any intention of meeting with Rand as an equal when she declared herself Empress.  When she last saw Mat, shortly after she completed the marriage vows, they both gave each other vows that they would continue to be at odds on the battlefield.  Tuon is by no means wounded after the Tower attack - she's gained the secret of Traveling.  Rand's biggest military advantage just went out the window.  The Tower was visibly damaged, the reputation of Tar Valon diminished, the proof of the Seanchan spread to the heart of Rand's east-north alliance, where Tuon claimed she would make her capital.

 

Tuon's pride against Rand's - whose do you think will win?  Tuon has proven herself able to resist Rand's ta'veren pull, and unlike Egwene, she didn't need the Power to do it.

 

Mixed up in all this is Mat's pride.  If anyone has the ability to wear those raven tattoos with pride, it's Mat.  All through The Gathering Storm, he's worried about becoming husbandly....because he worries about Tuon's safety all the time, just as she wishes constantly throughout the book that Mat would come back to her, and take his rightful place among the Seanchan.  She married to serve the Empire, after all.  Mat would transcend the mark of ownership in some way, of course, but we saw with Tylin that, though he fought it, he eventually came to have some level of appreciation for Tylin's particular kink.  Perhaps he will get a kick out of being owned.  Or perhaps, like I suggested at the end of my Theoryland post, he will be the catalyst for the emancipation of the da'covale, while Tuon, a latent channeler, will be the catalyst for the emancipation of the damane.  In any case, he will be a Deathwatch Guard with the tattoos, so perhaps he will become their leader.  I can see the Deathwatch Guard remaining as an elite guard dedicated to the Empress, but not remaining property for long.

 

Also, it leads to Mat sporting an eye patch like a pirate (his price), and also going shirtless or at least sleeveless to show off his raven tattoos.  Add the hat and the scarf and the ashan'darei, and all that's missing is the Harley.

[Auld Manriva]

I hate to break this to you Terez but the drawling, Asian, Texans are gonna get their comeuppance. I really don't care how. Theories bore me, I prefer to RAFO, but they will. Will Mat be a tool to accomplish this? Very likely.

 

Mat as leader of the Deathwatch? Umm, you're suggesting he'll abandon The Band? He'll abandon Alludra's Dragons? Or give THAT little technological advancement to these superstitious arrogant knot heads? He'll shave his noggin and prance about in whatever garb these twits deem necessary to fit their idiot image of nobility? Rand's done playin' with these goobs. Tuon stood up to Rand? That's a good one.  :D

 

That anything GOOD happens to the Seanchan in this story would be the travesty of the entire tale... IMHO ::)

 

... The ones who don't wake up and smell what's cookin' should probably all be tossed outside the Pattern to dwell in limbo with the DO and Fain. "Would serve them right to suffer".

 

Not that it would happen, but one can wish  upon a star... Oh wait, I never joined in at Theoryland.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Theories bore me,

 

Then you're probably in the wrong place.

[Terez]

I hate to break this to you Terez but the drawling, Asian, Texans are gonna get their comeuppance. I really don't care how. Theories bore me, I prefer to RAFO, but they will. Will Mat be a tool to accomplish this? Very likely.

If theories bore you, then you are probably in the wrong place.  This whole thread is dedicated to people's theories on the detail we missed in books 4-6.  

 

I believe that certain things about Seanchan society will change, but I don't believe they will be defeated.  Tuon's marriage to Mat seems to suggest that they will not.

 

Mat as leader of the Deathwatch? Umm' date=' you're suggesting he'll abandon The Band?[/quote']

Temporarily maybe. Maybe even permanently.  One of Min's viewings of Elayne was a 'severed hand, not hers'.  Some think that it is a reference to Mat's Band, and that she will steal them out from under him while he's at Ghenjei.  There is actually some foreshadowing of this, when they are on the way to Ebou Dar, and Mat's men fall in love with Elayne, even Vanin, who hates supposedly hates nobles.  Elayne inspects his troops and tells him what to do with them.

 

However, I don't think it's necessary for Mat to abandon the Band in order to lead the Deathwatch Guard.  I'm pretty sure the Band will follow Mat wherever he goes, unless Elayne really does manage to steal them.

 

He'll abandon Alludra's Dragons?

Why would he do that?

 

Or give THAT little technological advancement to these superstitious arrogant knot heads?

Why not, if they are on the same side?  Again, the point is the truce.  

[favouriteson]

i'm not gona be able to quote certain points or be exact on where it happens, but i have a few theories on what BS is eluding to:

 

- Min has a viewing of '3 becoming 1' which she thinks is Rand's 3 women. I think this could be to do with Callandor (especially as it is now the most powerful angreal in the world after AMOL) and the fact it needs to have 2 women linked to make it work

- I'm sure at some point it is mentioned that the leader of the seanchan was a woman and she was subserviant to her husband, could this be to do with mat taking charge of their armies?

- nynaeve mentions that she believes anything can be healed. is it possible that Rand's prophecy of having to die to save the world will see nynaeve saving him and actually healing his death?

anyway, only ideas, am really keen to know what ppl think

[Terez]

i'm not gona be able to quote certain points or be exact on where it happens, but i have a few theories on what BS is eluding to:

 

- Min has a viewing of '3 becoming 1' which she thinks is Rand's 3 women. I think this could be to do with Callandor (especially as it is now the most powerful angreal in the world after AMOL) and the fact it needs to have 2 women linked to make it work

This doesn't have anything to do with something that was introduced in books 4-6, so far as I can tell.

 

- I'm sure at some point it is mentioned that the leader of the seanchan was a woman and she was subserviant to her husband' date=' could this be to do with mat taking charge of their armies?[/quote']

I think you are confusing the Seanchan with the Sea Folk.  Even the Sea Folk Mistress of the Ships is only subservient to her husband in private, and only to balance for the fact that she commands in public.

 

- nynaeve mentions that she believes anything can be healed. is it possible that Rand's prophecy of having to die to save the world will see nynaeve saving him and actually healing his death?

I think it unlikely that death will be Healed in the strict sense, as death and rebirth are a fundamental part of the world, but one option is that Nynaeve could rip Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod after he dies.

[Luckers]

Terez, on your theory. In general I like it, though I'm not sure Mat will actually become property. I thought it resembled more him giving into marrying her. But who knows.

 

Your thoughts on the ravens have led me to my own theory though. Consider;-

 

A raven floating beside [Carlinya's] dark hair; more a drawing of the bird than the bird itself. [Min] thought it was a tattoo...

 

[TFOH: 26, Sallie Daera, 317]

 

 

I know people have suggested this simply means Carlinya will end up a damane belonging directly to Tuon, but consider... the ravens are a thing of prestige. Prestige that even places property above the Blood. I don't think they would be marking damane in that manner.

 

I agree that Seanchan slaving practices will be taking blows from the exposure to Westland morality, but the property which has authority--the so'jhin and Deathwatch Guard and so forth--will probably be sticking around. There is honour and prestige in what they do. I suspect it will mainly be the damane and the lower da'covale which will be brought under the presure of Westland dislike.

 

You said 'the da'covale system is doomed to fail, and so is the damane system. Mat would represent one, and Tuon the other.' If so what implications are there for a channeler who serves as property. My guess is this means Carlinya is going to serve Tuon in fascilitating the release and intergration of damane into normal culture--Aes Sedai that serve the Empire or some such.

 

If this is the missed thing, its big. I mean an alliance between Tuon and Egwene would be something to see.

 

Quote from: Auld

Mat as leader of the Deathwatch? Umm, you're suggesting he'll abandon The Band?

 

 

Temporarily maybe. Maybe even permanently.  One of Min's viewings of Elayne was a 'severed hand, not hers'.  Some think that it is a reference to Mat's Band, and that she will steal them out from under him while he's at Ghenjei.  There is actually some foreshadowing of this, when they are on the way to Ebou Dar, and Mat's men fall in love with Elayne, even Vanin, who hates supposedly hates nobles.  Elayne inspects his troops and tells him what to do with them.

 

I don't know about Mat as the head of the Deathwatch Guard, but damn Terez, that's a good catch. It never occurred to me that Elayne's severed Hand might be the Band severed from Mat.

 

And consider, Elayne's the only one in the world currently working against the Seanchan, with her plans for the sul'dam. If Aludra learns of that...

 

 

[Terez]

I don't know about Mat as the head of the Deathwatch Guard, but damn Terez, that's a good catch. It never occurred to me that Elayne's severed Hand might be the Band severed from Mat.

I can't take credit for that one; it's a very old theory at Theoryland.  That is part of why I have taken to posting at other WoT sites - I think we could probably all benefit from a sharing of ideas.

[water_seeker]

One of Min's viewings of Elayne was a 'severed hand, not hers'.  Some think that it is a reference to Mat's Band, and that she will steal them out from under him while he's at Ghenjei.  There is actually some foreshadowing of this, when they are on the way to Ebou Dar, and Mat's men fall in love with Elayne, even Vanin, who hates supposedly hates nobles.  Elayne inspects his troops and tells him what to do with them.

 

Isn't Mat going to be leaving the Band in Caemlyn while he goes to the tower?  It sure does look like this is a strong possibility.  I can't imagine that it would be permanent.  The Band's success is tied to Mat for one, and for another, Elayne prefers to have actual Queens Guards rather than "mercenaries."

[Terez]

Some things I meant to say earlier:

 

Terez, on your theory. In general I like it, though I'm not sure Mat will actually become property.

 

If it comforts you any, I'm quite sure Mat will somehow transcend ownership, either by convincing Tuon to emancipate the da'covale, or in some other way.  I don't expect him to actually be Tuon's slave.  Selucia is Tuon's so'jhin, but Tuon hardly treats her like property.  In fact, you could quite confidently say that Selucia is Tuon's best friend.  Perhaps her only friend, before Mat, and before Karede (who seems to stand a chance of becoming more than just a dedicated Deathwatch Guard).  It is repeatedly emphasized, even in the glossaries, that property, especially so'jhin, can achieve great honor in Seanchan society; the so'jhin of the Imperial family are equal with the High Blood, and the High Blood will not look the so'jhin of the Daughter of the Nine Moons in the eye.  How much more so could it be for the so'jhin of the Empress?

 

I thought it resembled more him giving into marrying her.

It does indeed resemble that.  But it's still hard to ignore the particular significance of the ravens on the shoulders for Seanchan, not to mention the countless references to the concept throughout their courtship, and the parallels in his introduction to Tuon: Tylin.

 

I know people have suggested this simply means Carlinya will end up a damane belonging directly to Tuon' date=' but consider... the ravens are a thing of prestige. Prestige that even places property above the Blood. I don't think they would be marking damane in that manner.[/quote']

Perhaps the White Ajah will be better at getting to the bottom of conspiracies than the Seekers were.

 

I agree that Seanchan slaving practices will be taking blows from the exposure to Westland morality' date=' but the property which has authority--the so'jhin and Deathwatch Guard and so forth--will probably be sticking around. There is honour and prestige in what they do. I suspect it will mainly be the damane and the lower da'covale which will be brought under the presure of Westland dislike.[/quote']

I agree that these positions of honor will stick around, and that they will remain to be positions of service as well as positions of honor.  I just don't think that the 'property' aspect is all that necessary.

 

You said 'the da'covale system is doomed to fail' date=' and so is the damane system. Mat would represent one, and Tuon the other.' If so what implications are there for a channeler who serves as property. My guess is this means Carlinya is going to serve Tuon in fascilitating the release and intergration of damane into normal culture--Aes Sedai that serve the Empire or some such.[/quote']

It's a nice guess, though I can't see there being any real evidence for it beyond that it is a need that will eventually arise.  Tuon once asked Toy if he would show her Tar Valon.  I'm sure it will happen eventually ;D

 

If this is the missed thing' date=' its big. I mean an alliance between Tuon and Egwene would be something to see.[/quote']

I somehow doubt that Carlinya could be the missed thing, unless you can come up with some evidence from the books to corroborate the idea besides that one viewing. It's supposed to be head-slappingly obvious.

 

And consider' date=' Elayne's the only one in the world currently working against the Seanchan, with her plans for the sul'dam. If Aludra learns of that...[/quote']

Plenty of people are working against the Seanchan.  Egwene is probably the foremost of them; she is the one that was collared, after all.  Her primary concern is the Black Ajah and Mesaana, along with Rand; she has said that the Tower does not have the time or resources to mount a rescue of the Aes Sedai who were captured, and she is probably right.  But she has unfulfilled dreams of herself and a Seanchan woman; one where the Seanchan woman helps her with a monumental task, and another where Rand is confronting her and the women with her, and one of the women is a Seanchan (possibly one of the Bloodknives?).  Considering that the rebels have not yet returned from the Black Tower, Egwene is required to do something about it.  

 

Her most obvious route to doing something about it is to confront Rand (as per Elaida's Foretelling), because so far as she and the world are concerned, it's his Black Tower, and the last batch of Aes Sedai, 47 of them (not counting the Reds) went there on his invitation.  But the most obvious place for her to confront Rand is in Caemlyn, as that seems to be his most likely next destination.  He's got no more reason to avoid it.  The Black Tower is on Caemlyn's doorstep; this has been a major issue in Elayne's plotline.  Now that Egwene is Amyrlin and Elayne is queen, there is no reason why they cannot communicate.  Egwene will probably have to declare war on someone or something - perhaps she will declare war on the Black Tower, or on the Black Ajah.  And then, of course, there's the fact that the Black Tower seems the most likely place for the Black Ajah to have gone.  

 

Add all that to the fact that Mat is in Caemlyn, and you get a very interesting picture, especially considering that there is pressure from Thom to go for Ghenjei, and soon.  Maybe Thom will pressure him to open Verin's letter after ten days.  Who knows what part it might play; perhaps she informed Mat in the letter that the Black Tower is controlled by a Dreadlord (or new Forsaken, if you prefer  ::)).  What do you think Elayne would do with that information?

 

And then there is the Battle of Camlann parallel.  Rand's already got the wounds, but the Black Tower is a battle that we just know will happen, and Caemlyn is right there.  Now that the Borderlanders have been transported to Far Madding, there are no other real options for battle in or near Caemlyn other than Shadowspawn coming from who knows where.  It could very well be both (and there could definitely be some Fain involved) but the Black Tower battle is pretty much a guarantee.  But that is getting off into a whole nother topic.

 

Back to the Seanchan, and the truce.  I don't think the truce will happen before Ghenjei; Ghenjei needs to happen soon and it would just be too easy.  There will have to be some sort of aggression concerning the Seanchan in the interim.  The Caemlyn convergence is a good place for that aggression to come to the fore, with possible meetings between various people, all of whom have some experience with the Seanchan (Perrin with Tylee, Mat...duh, Rand, Elayne, Egwene, Galad and the Whitecloaks, Morgase and Co.)  Despite all those people having experience with Seanchan, I'm sure Mat will be the focus, assuming that he decides to make the news of his marriage known to his friends.

 

Of course, there's the fact that the timelines are askew.  Perrin was camped under the sword when Tam came to Rand, and by that time Mat was in Caemlyn.  Mat could well be out the door already to Ghenjei when Rand shows up, leaving the news of his marriage behind with Elayne for Rand to stew over while Mat rescues Moiraine (which of course no one will know about except for those who were there when Mat read the letter).

 

Isn't Mat going to be leaving the Band in Caemlyn while he goes to the tower?

Presumably.  They can't go with him - Mat and Thom's conversation about Olver seems to make it clear that they won't be taking the risk of bringing anyone with them once they decide to go, besides Noal (or maybe a last minute someone else instead of Farstrider).  I imagine that they'll be asking Elayne or someone for a gateway, now that they've got that option.  So long as no one else steps through the gateway, then they can't be said to be going against Moiraine's restrictions.  She made it more than clear that they had no chance of success unless they came alone.

 

Also, the Band would be more useful against the Black Tower than regular men would (the scene where Birgitte rescues Elayne is just awful - none of those guys stood a chance), so there's some chance they might be involved there.  But that is another thing speaking for Mat having already hightailed it by the time Rand comes - it would be the best circumstances to bring about Mat ordering Talmanes to follow Elayne in the event that they do not come back from Ghenjei (which he knows is a strong possibility).  Because Mat will see a poor pregnant woman who hasn't seen the father since he knocked her up months previous, and he'll remember his promise to Rand, to keep her safe.  Then of course there's the advantage of the fact that his men worship her.  If Mat is thinking about dying, then there's no one better to leave the Band with.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers

I thought it resembled more him giving into marrying her.

 

 

It does indeed resemble that.  But it's still hard to ignore the particular significance of the ravens on the shoulders for Seanchan, not to mention the countless references to the concept throughout their courtship, and the parallels in his introduction to Tuon: Tylin.

 

Mmm. That is true. Actually, whilst I have a problem with the idea that Mat would be in any way made property--even by accident through the Finns--an argument could be made that the mate of the Empress is the very top of her property. Beyond the fact that the title given the husband of the heir is 'Prince of Ravens' it also fits with the Seanchan rationale about their Empress. The Empress couldn't even meet the Dragon Reborn as an equal. Her closest confidants, whose authority equals the High Blood, are themselves property. It doesn't seem a reach to me to suggest that the simple act of marrying the Empress makes one property to her.

 

Quote from: Luckers

I agree that Seanchan slaving practices will be taking blows from the exposure to Westland morality, but the property which has authority--the so'jhin and Deathwatch Guard and so forth--will probably be sticking around. There is honour and prestige in what they do. I suspect it will mainly be the damane and the lower da'covale which will be brought under the presure of Westland dislike.

 

 

I agree that these positions of honor will stick around, and that they will remain to be positions of service as well as positions of honor.  I just don't think that the 'property' aspect is all that necessary.

 

Within the scope of an imperial aristocracy I find the concept of slaves with more power than nobles to be an interesting one. And yes, probably necessary. Aristocracies by their very nature create class issues. This 'high slavery' provides a sort of counter-balance.

 

If they're going to sustain the throne, then this form of slavery is a necessary class counter-balance. Indeed, the Seanchan, despite having the strictest class system in the Wheel, is the most fair.

 

Quote from: Luckers

You said 'the da'covale system is doomed to fail, and so is the damane system. Mat would represent one, and Tuon the other.' If so what implications are there for a channeler who serves as property. My guess is this means Carlinya is going to serve Tuon in fascilitating the release and intergration of damane into normal culture--Aes Sedai that serve the Empire or some such.

 

It's a nice guess, though I can't see there being any real evidence for it beyond that it is a need that will eventually arise.  Tuon once asked Toy if he would show her Tar Valon.  I'm sure it will happen eventually

 

That need is itself evidence. Elayne's 'reformed' sul'dam will see the secret known. Bethamin and Seta are on the path to becoming Aes Sedai themselves--ex-sul'dam as Aes Sedai. The Empress a sul'dam herself. Then we have the fact that the Seanchan will be fighting alongside marath'damane in Tarmon Gai'don. Nothing can engender good opinions like fighting with someone.

 

Combined with the fact that Carlinya will be property to Tuon--property, and honoured property at that, but seemingly not damane--yes I would say that is evidence to sustain the suggestion that Carlinya will be serving in the release and intergration of damane and sul'dam into channeler society.

 

And Egwene's position on the Seanchan sustains that this will occur with her permission. Admittedly maybe the Tower will be crippled so badly by TG that she can't do anything about it, but if it isn't I do not see Egwene tolerating the abuse of Aes Sedai by Seanchan. One war would be followed by another.

 

I somehow doubt that Carlinya could be the missed thing, unless you can come up with some evidence from the books to corroborate the idea besides that one viewing. It's supposed to be head-slappingly obvious.

 

Actually it's not. It's supposed to be head-slappingly important. It is precisely this sort of thing which it will be. Something small with big implications that we've missed.

 

Quote from: Luckers

And consider, Elayne's the only one in the world currently working against the Seanchan, with her plans for the sul'dam. If Aludra learns of that...

 

 

Plenty of people are working against the Seanchan.  Egwene is probably the foremost of them; she is the one that was collared, after all.

 

Egwene's the one with the strongest reason to be resisting them, but with Inturalde put on Border patrol, Elayne's sul'dam plan is the only active one.

 

Besides, I was simply pointing out that Elayne's objectives would appeal to Aludra. Add that to the fact that Elayne will be the first person Aludra encounters with the actual resources to get things moving...

 

 

 

 

[Al Jenn Mael]

Now that Egwene is Amyrlin and Elayne is queen, there is no reason why they cannot communicate.  Egwene will probably have to declare war on someone or something - perhaps she will declare war on the Black Tower, or on the Black Ajah.  And then, of course, there's the fact that the Black Tower seems the most likely place for the Black Ajah to have gone.

 

Well Elaida constructed a nice tower right next to the white tower for ashanman not sworn to the shadow to flee to.

 

[GrandpaG]

Aiel darkfriends.

 

Chapters 4 through 6.

 

Rand trusts Aiel.

 

It will crush him to find that there are large numbers of darkfriends among his most trusted troops.

 

How will they identify each other in battle?  Headbands?  ::)

[Thews Lerin]

I just gotta comment on how impressed I am with some of you folks.

Especially Terez. Do you have a list of all the prophecies, Egwene's dreams, Perrin's dreams and Min's visions? Or do you have all this in your head? Either way, it's great to have all that knowledge on here.

I've read thru the series about 4 times or so, and I can't keep track of all of the above. Haven't tried to make a list yet.

Also, your insight on what it all means seems to be as well thought out as anyone on Dragonmount.

Keep up the good work.

[clu7ch]

Lawlz. Terez is amazing, but I would like to point out that wotwiki has a good list of prophecies and viewings, I like them a lot. A LOT. /emote:winks

[Terez]

I somehow doubt that Carlinya could be the missed thing, unless you can come up with some evidence from the books to corroborate the idea besides that one viewing. It's supposed to be head-slappingly obvious.

 

Actually it's not. It's supposed to be head-slappingly important. It is precisely this sort of thing which it will be. Something small with big implications that we've missed.

Yes, he said it would be head-slappingly obvious, and that we will all wonder why we haven't been discussing it all along.  Carlinya simply doesn't fit that criteria, and the 'small detail' itself was only mentioned that one - not in 'books and books' since.  Also, it's not really comparable to the Mistborn detail, which is something we should have been able to figure out before the end of Mistborn.  The Carlinya thing....your idea on it is logically no better than many that could be come up with.  The Mistborn spoiler was more of something that had one obvious explanation that was important to the plot, just like the ravens.

[inkL0sed]

My brainstorm on the matter:

 

Maybe it has something to do with Herid Fel and the fact that he clearly figured out how to seal the prison again. Maybe it's something in his note to Min. Maybe there's something deeper going on in the comment about how pretty she is. I admit, though, that this isn't quite the right timeline, as it's more of a 6-8 storyline.

 

My other thought also doesn't quite fit, but maybe it's on the right track. It just occurred to me that the Aes Sedai swear to "speak no word that is not true". Well, does that mean that they can lie in writing? Maybe there's something important that we've seen in writing in one or all of those books from an non-Darkfriend Aes Sedai that contains a lie.

[Ashaman Kovan]

My brainstorm on the matter:

 

Maybe it has something to do with Herid Fel and the fact that he clearly figured out how to seal the prison again. Maybe it's something in his note to Min. Maybe there's something deeper going on in the comment about how pretty she is. I admit, though, that this isn't quite the right timeline, as it's more of a 6-8 storyline.

 

My other thought also doesn't quite fit, but maybe it's on the right track. It just occurred to me that the Aes Sedai swear to "speak no word that is not true". Well, does that mean that they can lie in writing? Maybe there's something important that we've seen in writing in one or all of those books from an non-Darkfriend Aes Sedai that contains a lie.

 

Both of those things have been discussed too much for Brandon to have missed them during his lurkings.

[Luckers]

I somehow doubt that Carlinya could be the missed thing, unless you can come up with some evidence from the books to corroborate the idea besides that one viewing. It's supposed to be head-slappingly obvious.

 

Actually it's not. It's supposed to be head-slappingly important. It is precisely this sort of thing which it will be. Something small with big implications that we've missed.

Yes, he said it would be head-slappingly obvious, and that we will all wonder why we haven't been discussing it all along.  Carlinya simply doesn't fit that criteria, and the 'small detail' itself was only mentioned that one - not in 'books and books' since.  Also, it's not really comparable to the Mistborn detail, which is something we should have been able to figure out before the end of Mistborn.  The Carlinya thing....your idea on it is logically no better than many that could be come up with.  The Mistborn spoiler was more of something that had one obvious explanation that was important to the plot, just like the ravens.

 

Unless you have Q&A material I do not, he did not say it would be head slappingly obvious. He said we would be astonished when we found it. The Carlinya idea is not necessarily what I think it is, but it is precisely this sort of thing that it will be. Something easily missed but with huge (astonishing) implications.

 

Btw the Carlinya idea is no less logically sustainable then your ravens idea, or the presumed arguement for the Mistborn. The plight of channelers within the Empire and the coming resolution of that is even more frequently referenced then Mat being property--we even have characters actively beginning to address it, and like Vin and Hemulurgy the nature of Carlinya living as property to the Empress despite her ability to channel is a functionally consistant caveat that we should have noticed.

 

Or to put it another way, Carlinya being property has only one explanation--that something changes in the way channelers are treated amongst the Seanchan. The implications of that are huge. This is like Vin and her hemurlurgical issue. Mat having ravens does not have one answer, since, as has been shown in this thread, it could simply refer to him being Tuon's husband and have no greater implications than that. So, if we're getting into the nasty business of trying to dismiss each others arguments through the presumed weight Brandon feels should be given the 'Missed Thing', I'd say yours is weaker.

 

But please lets not go down that path. It's unpleasent and pointless.

[Terez]

My brainstorm on the matter:

 

Maybe it has something to do with Herid Fel and the fact that he clearly figured out how to seal the prison again. Maybe it's something in his note to Min. Maybe there's something deeper going on in the comment about how pretty she is. I admit, though, that this isn't quite the right timeline, as it's more of a 6-8 storyline.

The problem with that is that Fel's note has been discussed A LOT.  We figured out forever ago that he was referring to the seals on the Dark One's prison - the meaning of the rest is pretty obvious to - belief and order give strength.  Belief in the Dragon Reborn, and order like the Seanchan bring.

 

It just occurred to me that the Aes Sedai swear to "speak no word that is not true". Well' date=' does that mean that they can lie in writing? Maybe there's something important that we've seen in writing in one or all of those books from an non-Darkfriend Aes Sedai that contains a lie.[/quote']

The only letters I can think of are Moiraine's letters, Elaida's letter, Sashalle's letter to Toveine, and Teslyn's note to Mat.  I don't think there is much to pick apart in those that we haven't picked apart already, but let us know if you find something interesting.

[ed2funy]

I believe they can. In New Spring, Moiraine is sorta surprised to find she can still think a lie.

 

I would assume many AS convince themselves enough that they are notspeaking it, so they can lie in writing.

 

 

[Terez]

But please lets not go down that path. It's unpleasent and pointless.

Am I missing something?  In any case, there is hardly only one obvious interpretation of Carlinya's viewing, or any obvious interpretations, for that matter.  Carlinya could have an important encounter with a Seeker, or she could become one herself.  There's nothing about Carlinya to suggest that she is particularly suited to the task you have assigned her - if anything, her personality suggests that she would be bad at it.  If this is a mystery that we should have picked up on it when it was introduced, then it's a lame one.  Also, Vin was a major character in Mistborn, and Carlinya is practically a nobody in the WoT cast.  There is nothing particularly astonishing about the idea that Carlinya might become property (no matter what use she is put to), but Mat is a different story.

 

Also, your assertion that slavery is necessary to maintain the power of the Empire is flawed.  The Da'shain Aiel weren't the property of the Aes Sedai, but they were honored servants; honored servants can maintain their place in the Seanchan culture without being considered property.  It's not the sort of change that is likely to happen overnight, but it will happen.

[ed2funy]

I think he meant shooting down others theories because they don't have enough "weight"...

Kind of, sort of like you did when you just said Carliyna isn't even a major character...

 

By you reasoning, that means the other theories aren't good enough to be valid.

 

I think that is what he meant...not sure though..

 

Also, I forgot who Carliyna is, so yea...

[Diederichos]

Who the heck is Carlinya?

[Terez]

As for the detail being head-slappingly obvious, I was confused because it was indeed not in my interview database, but I found the quote in Tam's original post on the subject on Theoryland.

 

And here is what he said in Vegas when talking about Towers of Midnight:

 

"...including one thing is secretly hidden in the books for books and books and books, and I haven't been able to find a hint that any of the fan communities have even gotten a whiff it, which is awesome, because they get a whiff of almost everything. And it is really going to be a shocker when it happens, but it is going to be one of those shockers that people are going to slap their foreheads, why haven't we been talking about this for twelve years..."

 

By you reasoning' date=' that means the other theories aren't good enough to be valid.[/quote']

If they do not fit the criteria, then they are not valid.  Obviously, there will be some argument over whether or not things fit the criteria.  But it must fit these:

 

1.  Was first introduced somewhere in 4-6.

2.  Has been mentioned in 'books and books' since.

3.  Is comparable to Vin's earring.

4.  Is head-slappingly obvious, and that we should have been discussing it for years.

5.  Can come into play in Towers of Midnight.

6.  Is bigger than 'Who killed Asmodean?'

7.  Hasn't been discussed much on the fan sites.

8.  Is a small thing that means something large.

 

IMHO, Mat's ravens fits all of those criteria.    As for Carlinya....

 

1.  Yes.

2.  Not really.

3.  IMO, not at all.

4.  Don't think so.

5.  Hard to see how.  Luckers' idea seems more like a post-Last Battle thing.

6.  Since I don't care about Asmodean, I think nearly everything is more important.

7.  I did a search on Theoryland, and Carlinya's raven has been discussed far more than Mat's ravens there.

8.  The ravens are a small thing that means something large, but what they mean is that the person is property of the Empress.  Not a big deal with Carlinya; kind of a shocker for Mat.