The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Bobbun]

I really think the Tinker's have a role to play, and the only person with significant interaction with Tinkers is Perrin.  His choosing the hammer may be a key, as he carries a tool for building rather than a pure weapon to live by and the Tinkers won't tell about the Song to one who carries a weapon? 

 

Further, I think the role it could play has something to do with the Dragon "being one with the land."  If the song renews and replenishes the land and makes it strong and good, can it clean and strengthen Rand with it, give him the strength to defeat the Dark One?

 

I doubt the song is the big thing.  However, it's pretty clear that it's Rand who is connected to the Song, if anyone, not Perrin.

 

From the end of the Prologue in The Eye of the World:  "Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and and the valleys give forth lambs."

 

From The Great Hunt, Chapter 15, Kinslayer, when Loial creates a sung wood quarterstaff:  "It seemed almost familiar, that song, as if he should know it."

 

Then, of course, in The Fires of Heaven, we have the scene where Rand hears the Aiel seed singing song.  So Rand has been exposed to the song, though he still doesn't realize the significance of it.

 

[Tel Asra Nejoar]

its a flaming song! i doubt itd be much use at all, except after the battle maybe. but then for it to work, you need ogier, aiel, AND a green man, which seem to be in short demand. and i doubt the aiel will be interested in singing for crops these days, on top of which, the ogier are leaving. at some point. and the tinkers arent aiel, i always got the impression that seed singing NEEDED aiel to work, otherwise, there'd have been non aiel in the vision sent by crystal columns

[Bobbun]

Lol.  The Ogier are not chickening out and leaving before Tarmon Gaidon.  That would be the cheesiest mass exit ever.

[Tel Asra Nejoar]

no they wont leave before, but i doubt theyll stick around after though

[pacificflows]

When it comes to the song, I think of the connection the Aiel have with the Tinkers. Then what comes to mind is Rhudian, namely the gateway to the Fins.

 

Is that boy who is going with Mat to the Tower of Midnight a tinker? If so, I should think it is he who will learn the song from the fins.

[Red Hand Man]

Well, first off I haven't read all 101 pages (I was current up to page 24 and lost interest).  I got distracted by the Mistborn series, which I highly suggest you read.

 

I am unsure if this has been brought up before, but it became more evident to me as a possibility while I read Mistborn:

The ability to ignore the elements (e.g. - heat) that channelers seem to be able to master that non-channeling (non-Aiel) seem to have no ability with.  We know that it "has nothing to do with the one power", so what gives?

 

I personally haven't seen this discussed, though there are a lot of message boards out there.  It should have drawn our attention because it's a pretty big clue as to whether someone is a channeler.  The knowledge of how this is accomplished is displayed in Book 5 to Rand by Asmo and to the Super Girls in LoC when they get "raised" to AS.  Unfortunately there is another reason I suspect this, but I don't want to give away any part of the Mistborn trilogy, so I will refrain from stating it openly.  If you're curious enough PM me.

[Sharaman]

The ability to ignore heat does come up earlier in the series I think, though Rand only realises it is some trick of concentration when Asmo teaches the trick in FoH. Ditto the Supergirls and Moggy. It's been mentioned once or twice, but it beats me how it could be important even if it's something inherent to channelers, that channelers happen to believe is not inherent. Unless of course, anybody can become a channeler if they can master the trick.

I was trying to figure if Suian. Leane, or Anan had it after being stilled/ burnt out. Don't think it's ever mentioned with ref to Anan.  Will have to look through FoH/ LoC to see if Suian and Leane retain the ability. Don't have either book on hand.

 

 

[Rocky_Outcrop]

You know when you are flicking through the tv and you come across a show you like a lot but have seen hardly any episodes of? You think, oh great - here's that show and I've seen hardly any episodes of it. Then it turns out that of all the bloody episodes the one that happens to be on is one you've seen before! Damn! Then you decide you'll switch over.

 

Yeah, that if no one has talked about the heat thing before either you've happened to have seen allllll the episodes of the series and just missed the only one I've seen or one of us is lying about how much of the show we've watched.

 

 

[Red Hand Man]

Yeah, that if no one has talked about the heat thing before either you've happened to have seen allllll the episodes of the series and just missed the only one I've seen or one of us is lying about how much of the show we've watched.

 

Well, if I missed it my apologies.

 

I guess my biggest inclination towards this being it is what I shouldn't really say, because it would basically give away the big secret in Mistborn.

 

The ability to ignore heat does come up earlier in the series I think...

 

Yes, Rand and the girls notice that Moiraine and the other AS are unaffected by the weather.  However, the how of it isn't revealed until book 5.  To me it fits all of the things BrS was saying (except perhaps the discussion forums part, but I'm banking that he's only a partially huge geek -- like me) and the implications would be pretty big (also part of the spoiler that I'm avoiding).

[Blackhoof]

I really think the Tinker's have a role to play, and the only person with significant interaction with Tinkers is Perrin.  His choosing the hammer may be a key, as he carries a tool for building rather than a pure weapon to live by and the Tinkers won't tell about the Song to one who carries a weapon? 

 

Further, I think the role it could play has something to do with the Dragon "being one with the land."  If the song renews and replenishes the land and makes it strong and good, can it clean and strengthen Rand with it, give him the strength to defeat the Dark One?

 

The song has nothing. Remember, I think some Ogier we met at some point said that he had visited the tinkers and taught them some songs. the tinkers failed, they have lost the voice. Either the tinkers Aiel blood became so diluted by accepting non-aiel(they dont have the aiel red hair and grey eyes) or they lost the talent with time. 

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Yeah, that if no one has talked about the heat thing before either you've happened to have seen allllll the episodes of the series and just missed the only one I've seen or one of us is lying about how much of the show we've watched.

 

Well, if I missed it my apologies.

 

I guess my biggest inclination towards this being it is what I shouldn't really say, because it would basically give away the big secret in Mistborn.

 

The ability to ignore heat does come up earlier in the series I think...

 

Yes, Rand and the girls notice that Moiraine and the other AS are unaffected by the weather.  However, the how of it isn't revealed until book 5.  To me it fits all of the things BrS was saying (except perhaps the discussion forums part, but I'm banking that he's only a partially huge geek -- like me) and the implications would be pretty big (also part of the spoiler that I'm avoiding).

 

Sorry I didn't mean to be rude, I just mean it is something that I spoke about with people I know who've read the book and its something that I am pretty sure I've read online too. So its just that I am hoping its something that shocks me when I read it not something I spoke to my friends about a few years ago when reading the books. Like the chair idea for me that is something that isn't something I'd heard of until reading this thread, I really hope that the big u.t is like that - in essence - unnoticed.

[Wantanswers]

More than 1200 posts and no answers. To give the discussion a new opening I had like to add two little ‘things’ BS possibly referred to.

 

Death cannot be healed

 

There are several reasons I don’t believe this:

Rand didn’t succeed in resurrecting  the little girl in Tear, only because he could not give her her soul back.

Dead wolves and the Heroes of the Horn still ‘live’ in T’a’r.

The ‘dead’ Birgitte was thrown out of T’a’r and now lives in the real world.

Tinker tells Perrin that they will fight together in the Last Hunt.

The dead can be seen in the real world.

 

The last point is the most intriguing. Is there a world like T’a’r, where the human dead live. Can that world be entered? Did the merchant in WH die or did he  step in a gateway to the world of dead. Can Rand enter that world, specially now he can use TP.

 

One more remark about this thing.

I don’t believe Matt has ‘died and live again’ already. So, who or what is going to heal him.

 

The other little ‘thing’.

 

The Shaido don’t have a chief

 

In any case not a chief that survived Rhuidean. What is going to happen, now Bendhuin has been sent to Rhuidean? If he survives, will he recognize Rand to be the Car’ a’ carn and what is happening with the toh the Shaido must have?

 

Finally, I have a question. In my opinion it is off topic, but has discussed here before.

Could Perrin be the third man to accompany Matt. As a blacksmith Perrin is iron. We would have then:

Matt Fire Matches

Tom Music Harp and/or flute

Perrin Iron Hammer

Besides there is Leanne saying  something like:

The smith will wear a crown and speak in High Song (TGH, chapter 8)

Matt only spoke and understood the Old Tongue completely after he visited the Eelfinn in Rhuidean.

 

[Worm]

I don’t believe Matt has ‘died and live again’ already. So, who or what is going to heal him.

 

He did, that prophecy refered to Rand using balefire on Rahvin, it reversed Mats death.

[Sentinel78]

He did, that prophecy refered to Rand using balefire on Rahvin, it reversed Mats death.

 

I thought he died when he was hanged in Rhuidean.  His heart stopped and Rand resuscitated him.  He would die and live once more a part of once was?  He died, and woke up with the old battle memories.  Dying and living again as part of what once was makes more sense in context with the Rhuidean death then the Rahvin death.

[Worm]

I thought I read somewhere that RJ had confirmed that Mat didn't actually die in Rhuidean and that the prophecy had been fufilled in TFOH. But yeah you might be right.

[Sharaman]

He was actually dead - electrocuted in Caemlyn (along with Avi - the Toh she doesn't know about). In Rhuedean, he had a near-death experience but he was still alive when RaT gave him Heimlich's Kiss.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

I don't know if that counts as Toh - she died as a sister of the spear - giving honor - she now lives - does that give Toh? Wipe out previous honor or nothing? If anything I'd say option three - nothing - thus leaving her with more honor. But still I see what you mean as toh for not doing her job properly - which would mean staying alive and protecting the big man.

 

What about this thing with matt, thom and perrin mentioned in the last page, I don't like it. I don't like the way that Matt has to trick the finn by bringing in matches whilst thom and perrin have to directly countermand the rules. The iron one is tricky, maybe you could get iron from blood... nah i dunno. But the music one is easy, a comb and a bit of paper would work - or whistling - no need for a flute.

[Sharaman]

Avi has toh to Rand that she doesn't know about because he saved her life through BF-ing Rahvin - that's Rand's analysis in LoC. Whether he's right or not is a different matter. I think it's the scene when he learns that Sulin is serving a penance as a servant because she hand-talked to Gaishin. BTW Aviendha was a Wise One's apprentice, definitely not a spear-sister when the FoH raid happened. She had burnt her cadinsor and melted her spears. TSR - TGS, Avi serves as apprentice. 

[GrandpaG]

I've finally found evidence that "Aiel Darkfriends" is what this post is all about:

 

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,9354.msg1391577.html#msg1391577

 

 

See post # 75.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Cheers for answers Sharaman

[GrandpaG]

Those of you who have gotten used to my sense of humor over the past few years probably were not too upset by the preceding post.  To those of you who are not familiar with me, "Hi.", and I hope I didn't offend you too much.

 

Love,

Gramps.

[Sharaman]

Those of you who have gotten used to my sense of humor over the past few years probably were not too upset by the preceding post.  To those of you who are not familiar with me, "Hi.", and I hope I didn't offend you too much.

 

Love,

Gramps.

:) Trolloc braised with bok choi and noodles, with a little ice-pepper on the side. Yum!

[Wantanswers]

Yes, RJ confirmed that Matt didn't die in Rhuidean. In Ceamlin Rahvin was balefired. Everything he did, didn't happen! So, Matt hasn't been killed.

 

I wasn't talking about just a toh; I was talking about the toh the Shaido must now have towards the car'a'carn.

[Sentinel78]

Yes, RJ confirmed that Matt didn't die in Rhuidean.

 

Can you cite that confirmation Wantanswers?  I wasn't aware of that one and thought I had read pretty much all of RJ's blog and interviews, thanks.

[JakeBarnes]

Mat died from lightning caused by Rahvin.  Rand balefired Rahvin.  The pattern was reshaped without Rahvin's final actions. 

I always interpreted "Die and live again, a part of what was" to mean:

1.  Mat died.

2.  Mat came back to life after balefire

3.  What was, is restored by Rahvin being ripped out of the pattern.  Mat is a part of what was.