The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[havoc110]

Which could lead us to a "bizarre love triangle" (pentagon???).

 

What exactly are LTT's feelings about Lanfear?  She's bound with the DO in the Bore, while Ilyena's dead, killed by LTT's own hand (or use of power, whatever).  Coincidence?  Of course by that time, LTT was insane, but still...

 

Moridin is keeping Cyndane pretty "close to the vest" (literally and figuratively).  Is Cyndane going to make the final play to turn Rand, where Ishy failed last time?

 

And also, is LTT's voice gone by the end of TGS?  What significance and/or cause can we associate with this?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I see Callandor as unlikely for a couple of reasons.

 

First, there is at least subconscious leakage from the Dragon's past lives as early as The Eye of the World.  Rand just "somehow" knows how to do too many things he has no other way to know.  Those memories don't acquire a voice until post-Callandor, but they were exerting an influence from the beginning.

 

Second, Rand describes Callandor as the box Cadsuane was trying to put him into.  A way to force him to allow Aes Sedai to control him.  Even new sunny Rand is not about to allow that.

 

I don't doubt that we'll see Callandor used again, but I do doubt that we will ever again see Rand as the one who uses it.

 

As for Cyndane, as of the Cleansing, she just wants to see Rand dead, preferably by her own actions.

[havoc110]

Second, Rand describes Callandor as the box Cadsuane was trying to put him into.  A way to force him to allow Aes Sedai to control him.  Even new sunny Rand is not about to allow that.

 

 

Well Rand is seeing this wrong. Or at least looking from the wrong angle.

 

How about this:  Callandor is the ONE RING, or something like it.  It's Lanfear pushing him towards it, not Cads.  Cads hasn't even appeared in the story yet when he draws it.  Cads seems to be keeping him from it, if anything.

 

Like the One Ring, it has it's uses, but later on (post Hobbit) we find out it's true purpose.  Well maybe we don't know the true purpose yet, but I'm sure we'll find out soon.  Cads/library research/Callandor and Gandalf/library research/One Ring is a handy parallel.

 

But now I'm beginning to see that Callandor is a "Dark" Sa'angreal, and just might turn out to be the key to everything.  The Mistborn spoiler also lends credence to this argument.

[havoc110]

And something completely different, there are 2 scenes which I go back to again and again, thinking of possible connections to the bigger stories.  These are:

 

Herid Fel's murder.  Fel and Gholam both appear on the disqualified list, so I'll pass on this one.

 

But this one:

 

LoC ch.7, in TAR, Dem is watching Elayne.  This is like the only time (mostly sure on this) we see Dem not at a Forsaken Happy Hour or at SG.  IT NEVER GOES ANYWHERE.  And it drives me nuts.

 

[udpaco13]

Could someone explain exactly what significance the thing has in Mistborn?  I understand not wanting to be spoilery, but i don't feel like slogging through however many books (good as they may be) just to understand what kind of detail I should be looking for.

 

MISTBORN SPOILER: (this will spoiler the trilogy completely. copy and paste and increase the font size at your own risk.)

 

very early in the series, Vin mentions that the only thing she has from her mother is the earring she is wearing. The "bad guys" (Inquisitors) in the series are controlled by a magic known as Hemalurgy, which is essentially metal spikes slammed through their bodies. This allows Ruin (the "Dark One" of the series) to control people. Vin, specifically, he controls by being the voice of her brother in her head. We see at the end of book 1 when Vin loses her earring she is able to draw on the "mist" (aka Preservation -- don't worry about the details ;p), then again at the end of the series when the earring is pulled from her she becomes Preservation (the "Creator"). In the meanwhile, she is not able to tap this power because of her link to Ruin. In short, the "throwaway detail" from book one of the earring is what led Vin to be controlled by Ruin the entire series via Hemalurgy. There are plenty of other events impacted by this, and many other hints, but this is the basic idea.

 

 

So, it was a very small detail that made a heck of a lot of sense once you figured it out, and there were certainly plenty of clues TO figure it out.

 

 

 

 

 

I am a first time poster but I disagree with the above Mistborn spoiler.  Every thing stated in there is true but I feel there was a different minor detail in that series that he is referring too.

 

All the chapters in these books start with a quote from a book important to the storyline.  In the first chapter of the first book the quote states something along the lines of the Hero of ages will bear the weight of the world on his arms.  I the final chapter of the final book you learn the true hero to be Sazed(sp) who wears metal bands on his arms that contains all the knowledge collected by the keepers which he will use to rebuild the world

 

I feel he referenced this because it was a play on words which once explained is obvious.

 

[Vulgir]

Callandor and the Domination Band are so simliar. Both are just ways to Controll rand, this may lead to that other Sa Angreal Lanfear mentions,

 

 

 

 

But this one:

 

LoC ch.7, in TAR, Dem is watching Elayne.  This is like the only time (mostly sure on this) we see Dem not at a Forsaken Happy Hour or at SG.  IT NEVER GOES ANYWHERE.  And it drives me nuts.

 

 

This drives me nuts as well, i cant see this scene being anything but important

[bushleague]

Could someone explain exactly what significance the thing has in Mistborn?  I understand not wanting to be spoilery, but i don't feel like slogging through however many books (good as they may be) just to understand what kind of detail I should be looking for.

 

MISTBORN SPOILER: (this will spoiler the trilogy completely. copy and paste and increase the font size at your own risk.)

 

very early in the series, Vin mentions that the only thing she has from her mother is the earring she is wearing. The "bad guys" (Inquisitors) in the series are controlled by a magic known as Hemalurgy, which is essentially metal spikes slammed through their bodies. This allows Ruin (the "Dark One" of the series) to control people. Vin, specifically, he controls by being the voice of her brother in her head. We see at the end of book 1 when Vin loses her earring she is able to draw on the "mist" (aka Preservation -- don't worry about the details ;p), then again at the end of the series when the earring is pulled from her she becomes Preservation (the "Creator"). In the meanwhile, she is not able to tap this power because of her link to Ruin. In short, the "throwaway detail" from book one of the earring is what led Vin to be controlled by Ruin the entire series via Hemalurgy. There are plenty of other events impacted by this, and many other hints, but this is the basic idea.

 

 

So, it was a very small detail that made a heck of a lot of sense once you figured it out, and there were certainly plenty of clues TO figure it out.

 

 

 

 

 

I am a first time poster but I disagree with the above Mistborn spoiler.  Every thing stated in there is true but I feel there was a different minor detail in that series that he is referring too.

 

All the chapters in these books start with a quote from a book important to the storyline.  In the first chapter of the first book the quote states something along the lines of the Hero of ages will bear the weight of the world on his arms.  I the final chapter of the final book you learn the true hero to be Sazed(sp) who wears metal bands on his arms that contains all the knowledge collected by the keepers which he will use to rebuild the world

 

I feel he referenced this because it was a play on words which once explained is obvious.

 

MISTBORN SPOLIERS!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reread the BS quote.  He says its a minor detail that plays a major role later on in the book.  It's something that is more important than who killed Asmo.

 

The earring is really only mentioned once or twice at the beginning and then becomes vital in the final book.  We know Sazed's keeper knowledge will be important.  An earring however?  Kelsier mentions only once that she should keep it because it could be useful... thats the kind of minor detail BS is talking about

[lillcheese]

First, there is at least subconscious leakage from the Dragon's past lives as early as The Eye of the World.  Rand just "somehow" knows how to do too many things he has no other way to know.  Those memories don't acquire a voice until post-Callandor, but they were exerting an influence from the beginning.

 

You'll remember Egwene does this frequently as well.  In fact, every Wilder with a trick has done this to a certain extent - they do something without understanding how.  The instinctual nature of the channeling seems to have some relation to strength in the Power.  As the strongest channeler Rand would naturally be able to figure things out.  It doesn't require memory leakage.

[jemron]

Interesting.  Maybe Wilders have a stronger "link" to their past lives than most?  But, didn't Mat also say things in the OT before his link to the dagger or anything?

 

I think that it can be safe to assume that everybody in the world of the Wheel of Time is somewhat "shaped by" or "linked to" their past incarnations.  Maybe people who are ta'veren or who have the "old blood strong in them" are more effected by this than others...  But I think this happens to everyone in Randland based on RJs reincarnation mythology.

 

I just think that Lanfear wanted Rand to use Callandor because she knew it would magnify the taint, which would break down his barrier between his past lives (namely Lews Therin) faster that way.

[1eejit]

I think it's simply that when trying to use the Power without guidance some instincts kick in, and a person can manage to do a few weaves without being taught them. It doesn't necessarily have to be related to past lives.

[havoc110]

I think it's just a common literary mechanism.  If he had stayed a woolheaded teenage shepherd, he or the other Two Rivers folk wouldn't have lasted very long.  It might leave some with "how'd he do that?", but it happens in most stories.  Then you get stuff like:  "The Old Blood sings in his veins" and hoohah like that.

[Jareth Bixx]

Correct me if I am wrong, having been some years since my last complete read through; But was there not a girl that followed Rand and company from the Two Rivers, Elsie or Nicola or something? I seem to recall she became a Novice, and she was in love with Rand or something... When did this happen book wise, and whatever became of her?

[udpaco13]

Could someone explain exactly what significance the thing has in Mistborn?  I understand not wanting to be spoilery, but i don't feel like slogging through however many books (good as they may be) just to understand what kind of detail I should be looking for.

 

MISTBORN SPOILER: (this will spoiler the trilogy completely. copy and paste and increase the font size at your own risk.)

 

very early in the series, Vin mentions that the only thing she has from her mother is the earring she is wearing. The "bad guys" (Inquisitors) in the series are controlled by a magic known as Hemalurgy, which is essentially metal spikes slammed through their bodies. This allows Ruin (the "Dark One" of the series) to control people. Vin, specifically, he controls by being the voice of her brother in her head. We see at the end of book 1 when Vin loses her earring she is able to draw on the "mist" (aka Preservation -- don't worry about the details ;p), then again at the end of the series when the earring is pulled from her she becomes Preservation (the "Creator"). In the meanwhile, she is not able to tap this power because of her link to Ruin. In short, the "throwaway detail" from book one of the earring is what led Vin to be controlled by Ruin the entire series via Hemalurgy. There are plenty of other events impacted by this, and many other hints, but this is the basic idea.

 

 

So, it was a very small detail that made a heck of a lot of sense once you figured it out, and there were certainly plenty of clues TO figure it out.

 

 

 

 

 

I am a first time poster but I disagree with the above Mistborn spoiler.  Every thing stated in there is true but I feel there was a different minor detail in that series that he is referring too.

 

All the chapters in these books start with a quote from a book important to the storyline.  In the first chapter of the first book the quote states something along the lines of the Hero of ages will bear the weight of the world on his arms.  I the final chapter of the final book you learn the true hero to be Sazed(sp) who wears metal bands on his arms that contains all the knowledge collected by the keepers which he will use to rebuild the world

 

I feel he referenced this because it was a play on words which once explained is obvious.

 

MISTBORN SPOLIERS!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reread the BS quote.  He says its a minor detail that plays a major role later on in the book.  It's something that is more important than who killed Asmo.

 

The earring is really only mentioned once or twice at the beginning and then becomes vital in the final book.  We know Sazed's keeper knowledge will be important.  An earring however?  Kelsier mentions only once that she should keep it because it could be useful... thats the kind of minor detail BS is talking about

 

 

 

Did BS ever directly say the minor detail from Mistborn this equates to is the Earring?  If so I will drop my case.  If not I think the single line on the first page of the book, which is never mentioned again is much more minor detail.  She wears the earring through the enitire series, which is mentioned pretty much every time she gets dressed, and the fact that Kelsier tells her it may be important was a huge warning sign to me.  Also they tell you she recieved it from her mother directly after she murdered her sister.  While reading this sotry I always felt the earring would come back to be important. 

The only reason I mention it is if BS is refering to a play on words we could narrow the search down considerably.  The whole "to live you must become Mordin" idea looks a whole lot better to me.

[lillcheese]

@ udpaco13 - IIRC, it was specific to the earring.

 

@ Jareth Bixx - You're thinking of Else Grinwell.  I'm not 100% that the real Else was ever in the Tower, but she was booted from the Tower for being a slacker & watching the boys too much.  Then Lanfear uses the persona to move around in the Tower for a while - first to send the Super Girls to the store room full of "clues" to Tear, second she runs into Mat just before he beats on Gawyn and Galad.  Assuming that the real Else did go to the Tower, I don't know that we ever hear from her again.

 

In other thoughts, has anyone discussed Perrin's decision to run off to the TR?  He had to work very hard to get away from Rand's ta'veren pull.  Slayer makes a comment that all those trollocs wouldn't have been brought to the TR if Perrin hadn't shown up.  AFAIK, it's the only time we see someone break away from the Pattern's pull.

[Bob T Dwarf]

First, there is at least subconscious leakage from the Dragon's past lives as early as The Eye of the World.  Rand just "somehow" knows how to do too many things he has no other way to know.  Those memories don't acquire a voice until post-Callandor, but they were exerting an influence from the beginning.

 

You'll remember Egwene does this frequently as well.  In fact, every Wilder with a trick has done this to a certain extent - they do something without understanding how.  The instinctual nature of the channeling seems to have some relation to strength in the Power.  As the strongest channeler Rand would naturally be able to figure things out.  It doesn't require memory leakage.

 

Maybe.  I just think Rand knows how to do too much for it to be explainable by something akin to girls who get daddy to buy them a new dress.

 

Lending Bela some increased stamina I could buy.  But instinctively transporting to Tarwin's Gap, instinctively knowing how to pull down hillsides onto Trollocs, instinctively knowing how to make a series of Skimming Platforms to form a stairway to wherever Ba'alzamon was, and then instinctively knowing how to successfully vanquish him seems a bit much for instinct alone.

[apob1469]

long time reader, first time poster. be malicious please.....

 

have anyone guessed the big unnoticed thing is the Dark One telling Demandred to unleash Balefire?

havent seen him do it too much? or did i miss something?

 

[Sentinel78]

Lending Bela some increased stamina I could buy.  But instinctively transporting to Tarwin's Gap, instinctively knowing how to pull down hillsides onto Trollocs, instinctively knowing how to make a series of Skimming Platforms to form a stairway to wherever Ba'alzamon was, and then instinctively knowing how to successfully vanquish him seems a bit much for instinct alone

 

All that was done through the Eye of the World though... I always thought Rand was capable of all that because the Eye was specifically made for him.  Not that the Eye was conscious or anything, but maybe easier to channel?  Perhaps more than just clean saidin, it was in a form that would be easier for a newbie to channel?  No idea though really. 

 

Speaking of things that might have been put in place specifically for Rand, I've always been confused on how Callandor could possibly have been warded so that Rand, who wouldn't be born for 3000 years, would be the only person who the ward would permit to access the Sword.  Has that ever been discussed in the forums?  I mean, I guess that was introduced in Book 3, not Books 4-6, but still... 

[havoc110]

long time reader, first time poster. be malicious please.....

 

have anyone guessed the big unnoticed thing is the Dark One telling Demandred to unleash Balefire?

havent seen him do it too much? or did i miss something?

 

 

I would have included this, but felt it was disqualified because "Dem interaction with DO" is on the list of DQ'd ideas.  I wonder a lot about Dem and balefire as well.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Speaking of things that might have been put in place specifically for Rand, I've always been confused on how Callandor could possibly have been warded so that Rand, who wouldn't be born for 3000 years, would be the only person who the ward would permit to access the Sword.  Has that ever been discussed in the forums?  I mean, I guess that was introduced in Book 3, not Books 4-6, but still... 

 

That's one I've always wondered about also.  As far as I know, nobody has ever had an explanation.

 

The Stone of Tear wasn't built and Callandor wasn't placed there and warded until long after Lews Therin was dead, and much longer even before Rand was born.  How somebody could Ward it to recognize Rand seems to be one of those impossibilities that we were supposed to not notice.

[sdelu]

Speaking of things that might have been put in place specifically for Rand, I've always been confused on how Callandor could possibly have been warded so that Rand, who wouldn't be born for 3000 years, would be the only person who the ward would permit to access the Sword.  Has that ever been discussed in the forums?  I mean, I guess that was introduced in Book 3, not Books 4-6, but still... 

 

That's one I've always wondered about also.  As far as I know, nobody has ever had an explanation.

 

The Stone of Tear wasn't built and Callandor wasn't placed there and warded until long after Lews Therin was dead, and much longer even before Rand was born.  How somebody could Ward it to recognize Rand seems to be one of those impossibilities that we were supposed to not notice.

 

Well, maybe it's something as simple as there being weaves around Callandor that a) only allowed channelers through and/or b) recognized and killed those who followed the DO. Since Tear had pretty much 0 tolerance of channeling in any form, and since the prophecy said that ONLY the true Dragon will be able to take the fortress, that's really all that there needed to be. Nothing for Rand specifically, just that the only one who COULD get it (thanks to the Pattern) would be the Dragon, so they only needed to prevent against Darkfriends.

 

That would explain why Be'lal and the others couldn't just grab it, and since no other false dragons had ever managed to take the Stone (or would have ever been able to), it could be as simple as that.

[Terez]

Did BS ever directly say the minor detail from Mistborn this equates to is the Earring?

Yes.

[wumpus]

I need to find where I remember this from, but it is my understanding Callandor's flaw was that is is unbuffered. Each angreal / sa'angreal has a buffer that prevents the chaneler from burning themselves out by drawing too much from it, and the two women in the link are required to act as the buffer for it to be used. The question is really about if it is a flaw as in mistake, or flaw as in feature - e.g. was it intentionally made this way for a reason? Has anyone considered if Callandor, being the only sa'angreal shaped like a weapon, might be used to physically strike the dark one while hideous amounts of the OP are drawn through it? e.g. stab him with saidar and saidin?

 

The purpose of Callandor cannot be simply power, if it were simply power then while he was cleansing saidar and saidin Rand/LTT could have just blasted the darkone to death while he was at it. Callandor is less powerful than using the access keys, but was more important. Was it more important because the access keys were lost at the time?

 

From the RPG system the Choden Kal are described as level 10 Sa'Angreal and Callandor is level 9, I think angreal tap out at 2 or 3. I think the fluted wand is 7.

 

That would be very pulp fiction if rand just up and stabs the dark one in the eye and curb stomps him.

[Dakota]

The question is really about if it is a flaw as in mistake, or flaw as in feature - e.g. was it intentionally made this way for a reason?

 

There's a quote from RJ himself somewhere in one of these threads, that the flaw in Callandor was indeed a mistake.  Something along the lines how during that part of the war, angreal and sa'angreal were being mass-produced at an unsustainable rate, and design/manufacturing flaws slipped through the cracks regularly enough.  Callandor's problem was one of these such flaws.

 

This is from RJ, take that with as many grains of salt as you wish.

[Random Man]

The question is really about if it is a flaw as in mistake, or flaw as in feature - e.g. was it intentionally made this way for a reason?

 

There's a quote from RJ himself somewhere in one of these threads, that the flaw in Callandor was indeed a mistake.  Something along the lines how during that part of the war, angreal and sa'angreal were being mass-produced at an unsustainable rate, and design/manufacturing flaws slipped through the cracks regularly enough.  Callandor's problem was one of these such flaws.

 

This is from RJ, take that with as many grains of salt as you wish.

 

Still doesn't mean that the Pattern didn't intend (as much as the Pattern does things "intentionally") for the flaw to occur. Maybe Sa'angreal Inspector #25 came down with the flu the day he inspected it and and approved its release, and 3,000 years later that "flaw" turns out to be what is needed for the Light to win.

[Dakota]

The question is really about if it is a flaw as in mistake, or flaw as in feature - e.g. was it intentionally made this way for a reason?

 

There's a quote from RJ himself somewhere in one of these threads, that the flaw in Callandor was indeed a mistake.  Something along the lines how during that part of the war, angreal and sa'angreal were being mass-produced at an unsustainable rate, and design/manufacturing flaws slipped through the cracks regularly enough.  Callandor's problem was one of these such flaws.

 

This is from RJ, take that with as many grains of salt as you wish.

 

Still doesn't mean that the Pattern didn't intend (as much as the Pattern does things "intentionally") for the flaw to occur. Maybe Sa'angreal Inspector #25 came down with the flu the day he inspected it and and approved its release, and 3,000 years later that "flaw" turns out to be what is needed for the Light to win.

 

Well, "intentionally made" definately implies that there is some sort of conscious decision to do something a certain way, whereas I'd hardly put anything that the pattern does as a "conscious decision".

 

Your point is very well made though, and I would not in the least bit be suprised if this is indeed what happens, that this flaw ends up being instrumental in the good guys winning the day.