The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Hadilmir]

Is it the Dark One's touch that's affecting the weather?

 

Mostly. The Bowl plays its part.

If Rand is apparently the Fisher King, how sure of this can you be...?

[JakeBarnes]

SH is physically a different entity than the DO, but he is fully controlled by the DO, overriding whatever personality existed inside him before the DO set up camp.

 

I wonder what kind of Myrdraal he was before the DO took over....

 

He may have been a father, and a husband.  A church deacon, a volunteer fire fighter.

 

We'll never know....

[Tommatt]

I always thought Moiraine was an idiot for not guessing the Aiel were the People of the Dragon. Even if she missed Somestha calling Rand a Child of the Dragon, the Aiel are Rand's people by blood, and a people who have come to the Stone for the First Time. I mean her reasons would have been wrong, but still, she should have picked it.

 

Speaking of MOraine and the people of the dragon, I swear I remember reading the Blue Ajah was secretly the Ajah of the Dragon.  Did I make this up?

[Luckers]

Is it the Dark One's touch that's affecting the weather?

 

Mostly. The Bowl plays its part.

If Rand is apparently the Fisher King, how sure of this can you be...?

 

Pretty certain. Moridin states it, then the bowl is used, and Brandon has said the effects of that are finalized. The Storm clouds, which are the current weather oddity are from the north--re-reading the prologue clearly links them to the Dark One.

 

Besides, the Fisher King is never linked to the weather--you'll notice in tGS nothing is growing. Tylee and the farmer in the prologue both comment on it, and its referenced in the wind--and I'm sure it must be at other times too. This is the Fisher King. The spoilage too--at least some of it.

 

But those clouds. They be the Dark One. The older drought and winter. Dark One.

[Hadilmir]

Makes sense, I'm not familiar with the Fisher King legend, so I'll take your word.

[Kaman]

To Doc Bean

 

The first time Rand has a LTT generated thought is in TSR after Rand leaves Rhudian and the wise ones make Aviendha his "teacher" in Aiel ways. I don't have the exact quote, but Aviendha is being nasty to Rand and he thinks to himself that Ilyena never behaved like that, then he thinks to himself where did that thought come from.

[OptimusPrime]

Makes sense, I'm not familiar with the Fisher King legend, so I'll take your word.

 

Its not directly a link to the Fisher King, Rand and the spoilage stems from the prophecies. "There can be no healthin us, nor any good thing grow, for the Dragon Reborn is one with the land..." is the lnk from Rand to food rotting, and the line from that to the Fisher King is that Rands darkness is causing it, and Rands darkness is what Moridin was referring to when he thought to himself that Rand moved as he wished.

 

That same prophecy and Rands darkness, I reckon, are the cause of beetles pouring out of people and the Hinderstap oddity.

[Hadilmir]

Its not directly a link to the Fisher King, Rand and the spoilage stems from the prophecies.

Moridin would like to say otherwise. ;)

 

Besides, men fulfill the prophecies, the prophecies don't fulfill the men. That made absolutely no sense, but you get the point. ;D

[Kaman]

I don't think this is the BUT, though it is an oddity from books 4 and 6.

 

In book 4 the very last thing that is written is this.

 

the Children of the Dragon did spring up, the People of the Dragon, armed to dance with death. And he did call them forth from the wasted lands, and they did shake the world with battle.

 

— from The Wheel of Time

by Sulamein so Bhagad,

Chief Historian at the Court of the Sun,

the Fourth Age

 

In book 6 the first thing that is written is this.

 

The lions sing and the hills take flight.

The moon by day and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

—chant from a children's game

heard in Great Arvalon,

the Fourth Age

 

Both these quotes come from the fourth age. Since the current age in Randland is the third age it seems to foreshadow the world will make it through successfully to the next age. Also, In the first quote the historian is from the Court of the Sun which sounds alot like the next age equivalent to the Cairhien Sun Court. The second quote is heard in Great Arvalon which sounds like Tarvalon just without the T.

 

[DocBean]

I don't think this is the BUT, though it is an oddity from books 4 and 6.

 

In book 4 the very last thing that is written is this.

 

the Children of the Dragon did spring up, the People of the Dragon, armed to dance with death. And he did call them forth from the wasted lands, and they did shake the world with battle.

 

— from The Wheel of Time

by Sulamein so Bhagad,

Chief Historian at the Court of the Sun,

the Fourth Age

 

In book 6 the first thing that is written is this.

 

The lions sing and the hills take flight.

The moon by day and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

—chant from a children's game

heard in Great Arvalon,

the Fourth Age

 

Both these quotes come from the fourth age. Since the current age in Randland is the third age it seems to foreshadow the world will make it through successfully to the next age. Also, In the first quote the historian is from the Court of the Sun which sounds alot like the next age equivalent to the Cairhien Sun Court. The second quote is heard in Great Arvalon which sounds like Tarvalon just without the T.

 

 

This one is good; however, no one would be shocked like Brandon thinks because I think most people noticed it.

It does fit all the requirements, I don't remember anyone ever talking about it in the forums.

Then again, I don't think there would ever be a big reveal for this one to be it, so maybe it doesn't fit.

 

If the poems said something like "The Dragon consumed the Darkness." and no one noticed it, then Rand ended up burning up all the True Source leaving nothing for the Dark One to use, then we'd all say "Damn it, they told us that's how he'd win in Book 4!!!"

 

 

[Hadilmir]

If the poems said something like "The Dragon consumed the Darkness." and no one noticed it, then Rand ended up burning up all the True Source leaving nothing for the Dark One to use, then we'd all say "Damn it, they told us that's how he'd win in Book 4!!!"

Or mayhaps the Dark One is in fact a rabbit and Rand skewers it with Callandor and then roasts it over a fire.

[Kaman]

Up until this point I have been leaning towards the belief that the unseen watchers were the finns but currently I am listening to the LoC audiobook again and something popped out at me the second I heard it last night.

 

When Rand takes the 3 ogiers, (Elder Haman, Loials mother, and Erith), to Shadar Logoth to seal the Waygate there RJ uses the exact phrase "unseen watchers" to describe the feeling in SL.

 

LoC, ch 21 To Shadar Logoth

 

"He could feel unseen watchers. When he had been here before, that feeling had not come this strongly until the sun began to go down"

 

This has finally convinced me that the unseen watchers of TAR are the evil creatures that inhabit SL.  

[Luckers]

Have you read my thread on this Kaman? It can be found here.

 

I thought you might be interested in it because Fain also causes an Unseen Eyes feeling, and it contains the information about the evil that twisted Mordeth and led to the creation of Shadar Logoth--which is what I suspect the Unseen Eyes are. Not Shadar Logoth or its evil, but rather the evil that gave birth to Shadar Logoth.

[DocBean]

Or mayhaps the Dark One is in fact a rabbit and Rand skewers it with Callandor and then roasts it over a fire.

 

Well in book 4 Rand misinterprets the prophecy that he needs to Stab Callendor into the "Heart" of the Stone.

Everyone assumes Narishma is the one who will follow after, but that's not the case if the Prophecy really alludes to another "Heart"

I think once Rand stabs the Dark One through the heart, then dies to absolve any taint; it will be Logain who will follow after.

 

I would be much easier if the Dark One was just a rabbit. Although, those little buggers can be fast.

 

[Kaman]

Have you read my thread on this Kaman? It can be found here.

 

I thought you might be interested in it because Fain also causes an Unseen Eyes feeling, and it contains the information about the evil that twisted Mordeth and led to the creation of Shadar Logoth--which is what I suspect the Unseen Eyes are. Not Shadar Logoth or its evil, but rather the evil that gave birth to Shadar Logoth.

 

 

Hey Luckers, I just gave your thread a read through. You make a compelling case. Till my first read of TGS I never visited a WoT site so I'm playing catch-up in many ways. I own the whole series in hardback and have read each book not less than twice, but of coarse for most it has been many years. I've been following the BUT thread almost exclusively since I came to Dragonmount, but recently I have begun following much more of the other topics. It's taken me since the release of TGS to read Mistborn and listen to books 4-6 on audiobook and then another listen of all the books (1-12), of which I am back up to LoC currently. I feel that I'm starting to get a better handle on the series as a whole.

 

Since I began following the BUT I have had the feeling that it had something to do with TAR. I can't wait for ToM so we can know for certain what the BUT truly is. I'll be rooting for the unseen watchers to become the seen action takers. 

[Druugan]

Okay, so I'm now re-reading book 4 and I think I noticed something that I had completely missed before.  I'll have to get to other parts of the books to see if there is any corroborating evidence... but I think this could be a fairly big unnoticed thing.

 

In a nutshell, Mat Cauthon is like Miles Teg (Dune series).

 

I've seen them show up together in other groups talking about their tactical abilities.  I believe I noticed another similarity though.

 

During the beginning of book 4, when the bubbles of evil first erupt, Mat is playing cards when the Rulers start growing and coming out of the cards.  At this point, Mat kicks himself back from the table and time seems to slow down.  I'm sure when I first read it I just took it as a creative way to describe the scene in detail.  However, I've been trying to pay closer attention on this read-through due to the BUT.

 

Take a close look at how the scene is written.  Mat seems to have sped up to the point where everything else seems really slow.  He has time to notice that he seems to be floating and the air is like jelly.  Everything is described as moving very slowly except his thought processes and actions.  He's floating, but he seems to be able to pull knives out and throw them in one quick motion.  Once they leave his hands they seem to slow down, but he seems to be able to think, act, and react much faster than the world around him.  When the effect wears off time syncs up rapidly and he falls awkwardly to the floor.

 

I just grabbed a few of the parts that I refer to here as examples.  There's more to it, but that's a good beginning, middle, and end.

 

With a hoarse yell, he flung the cards away and hurled himself backward, overturning his chair, kicking the table with both feet as he fell. The air seemed to thicken like honey. Everything moved as if time had slowed, but at the same time everything seemed to happen at once.

 

Mat floated, yet somehow he managed to reach the dagger in his left sleeve and hurl it in the same motion, straight for the Amyrlin’s heart.

 

The second knife came into his left hand smoothly and left more smoothly.

 

The world lurched back into normal motion, and he landed awkwardly on his side, hard enough to drive the wind out of him.

 

In my opinion, the scene was very reminiscent of the scene in the Dune series where Miles Teg is awakened to his heightened mental and physical abilities and escapes his interrogators... though not quite as extreme and with more subtlety to the reader.

 

I'll now have to keep closer attention for any similar scenes in the rest of the series.

 

If this really is the same type of heightened ability that Mat makes use of later to much greater effect, I think it could certainly qualify as the Big Unnoticed Thing.

 

So... is it just me?

 

[Suttree]

Okay, so I'm now re-reading book 4 and I think I noticed something that I had completely missed before.  I'll have to get to other parts of the books to see if there is any corroborating evidence... but I think this could be a fairly big unnoticed thing.

 

In a nutshell, Mat Cauthon is like Miles Teg (Dune series).

 

I've seen them show up together in other groups talking about their tactical abilities.  I believe I noticed another similarity though.

 

During the beginning of book 4, when the bubbles of evil first erupt, Mat is playing cards when the Rulers start growing and coming out of the cards.  At this point, Mat kicks himself back from the table and time seems to slow down.  I'm sure when I first read it I just took it as a creative way to describe the scene in detail.  However, I've been trying to pay closer attention on this read-through due to the BUT.

 

Take a close look at how the scene is written.  Mat seems to have sped up to the point where everything else seems really slow.  He has time to notice that he seems to be floating and the air is like jelly.  Everything is described as moving very slowly except his thought processes and actions.  He's floating, but he seems to be able to pull knives out and throw them in one quick motion.  Once they leave his hands they seem to slow down, but he seems to be able to think, act, and react much faster than the world around him.  When the effect wears off time syncs up rapidly and he falls awkwardly to the floor.

 

I just grabbed a few of the parts that I refer to here as examples.  There's more to it, but that's a good beginning, middle, and end.

 

With a hoarse yell, he flung the cards away and hurled himself backward, overturning his chair, kicking the table with both feet as he fell. The air seemed to thicken like honey. Everything moved as if time had slowed, but at the same time everything seemed to happen at once.

 

Mat floated, yet somehow he managed to reach the dagger in his left sleeve and hurl it in the same motion, straight for the Amyrlin’s heart.

 

The second knife came into his left hand smoothly and left more smoothly.

 

The world lurched back into normal motion, and he landed awkwardly on his side, hard enough to drive the wind out of him.

 

In my opinion, the scene was very reminiscent of the scene in the Dune series where Miles Teg is awakened to his heightened mental and physical abilities and escapes his interrogators... though not quite as extreme and with more subtlety to the reader.

 

I'll now have to keep closer attention for any similar scenes in the rest of the series.

 

If this really is the same type of heightened ability that Mat makes use of later to much greater effect, I think it could certainly qualify as the Big Unnoticed Thing.

 

So... is it just me?

 

 

Yes

[aunt_pol]

IIRC, all 3 ta'veren perceived time to be acting funny during the bubble.

[talligan]

On an unrelated note, I had a dream last night where I had figured out the BUT and was really excited, but now I can't remember it for the life of me :(

[aunt_pol]

Talligan - go back to sleep, quick!!

[haloun]

ive read a few of the posts, and here is the thoughts that i have had.  demandred is nowhere to be found, everyone thinks he is in the black tower, until recently when he says "my rule is complete" he has had orders from the DO and no one knows what they are, Graendel had the shboan* and shbayan* (correct me if wrong)rulers from shara, and i believe that shows up in book four.  what if Rands balefiring of Graendel was strong enough to go back years even?  then the shboan and shbayan* would no longer be under compulsion.  also rands use of balefire in general... moiraine* (Spell Check) warns rand to never use it again, but the darkhounds will only die from the BF, when earlier(I believe book two or three) Lan kills them with his sword.  anyways back to the Shara Continent, I believe that is where demi is and that the sharans, with their giants, and other strange things, come out of nowhere from a land that NOAL is the ONLY one who knows anything about it... a land that uses the power as a weapon and that uses male channelers as "studs" for lack of a better word.  breeding stock for those who are born with the spark.  while the Aes sedai have been "culling" the power out of their land, the pattern balanced it out with a land that was breeding the ability,, and one of the forsaken now rules that land.  also in book four, we find the seanchan have another party of people scouting everything out, but you dont really hear much about it.  thoughts to think on.

[jemron]

Brandon debunked the theory that the BF was strong enough on Graendal to go back more than a few hours or a day.

 

People thought that maybe Asmodean would come back because Graendal was BFd, but he said even the strongest BF doesn't go back further than a day, I believe.

 

Sorry to debunk your theory.

[haloun]

Brandon debunked the theory that the BF was strong enough on Graendal to go back more than a few hours or a day.

 

People thought that maybe Asmodean would come back because Graendal was BFd, but he said even the strongest BF doesn't go back further than a day, I believe.

 

Sorry to debunk your theory.

 

one of them anyways.

 

also I just realized that horn sounder is what brigitte calls matt i believe, and i have always thought that gaidal cain was ripped out of TR and put in a myrdralls body, or was reborn as a myrdrall, that is one other thought that i have had.  i am full of things that have been unoticed, such as the horn has not been mentioned since fain taking him, the seanchan could have taken it, or might now that they have aes sedai who can channel, at least they have elaida.

[Nightstrike]

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q:  How does the idea of souls apply to constructs such as Nym and Trollocs? Could either of them be reborn?

RJ:  To whoever put this one forward, this is one of the best questions I've ever gotten! Nym and Trollocs both have souls, and either could be reborn, but since Nym were a pure construct (i.e. each of them was individually made, like hand-crafting) a Nym would not be reborn as a Nym. You might say that a Nym's soul was borrowed temporarily from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth. A Trolloc, however, bears a twisted, or corrupted soul, and would be reborn as a Trolloc. Though frankly, a Trolloc's soul is such a pitiful thing, it hardly seems worth calling a soul.

 

I'd say that people don't get reborn as shadowspawn (trollocs is the example given in the quote).

[haloun]

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q:  How does the idea of souls apply to constructs such as Nym and Trollocs? Could either of them be reborn?

RJ:  To whoever put this one forward, this is one of the best questions I've ever gotten! Nym and Trollocs both have souls, and either could be reborn, but since Nym were a pure construct (i.e. each of them was individually made, like hand-crafting) a Nym would not be reborn as a Nym. You might say that a Nym's soul was borrowed temporarily from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth. A Trolloc, however, bears a twisted, or corrupted soul, and would be reborn as a Trolloc. Though frankly, a Trolloc's soul is such a pitiful thing, it hardly seems worth calling a soul.

 

I'd say that people don't get reborn as shadowspawn (trollocs is the example given in the quote).

 

 

 

but he didnt outright say that... he said that they have twisted souls, look at luc and isam, both supposed to be hero's, both sworn to fight the shadow, ,and yet their soul was so twisted that they became combined into one.  interesting thought though.