The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Barid Bel Medar]

So i would suggest we all start looking at the really little things, like ordinary landmarks, characters reaction to something said and things like that.

Like how a vague mention of some shiny tower in the first book will play a HUGE role in the 13th book  :o

 

hahaha exactly  ;D

[Cirin]

Someone has probably mentioned this already in all these pages of posts, but I was talking to my little brother tonight, who is currently reading Fires of Heaven, and was telling him to keep an eye out for anything unusual.  I explained the BUT to him, and he asked if it was book 4 through 6, or book 4 or 6 (excluding 5).  I told him there was some uncertainty on that point, and he mentioned that book 5 doesn't have a single Perrin chapter in it.  Might be nothing, or maybe he was wrong (he's got my book, so I can't check), but if that's true, it may indicate that the BUT has something to with Perrin.

[Hadilmir]

Someone has probably mentioned this already in all these pages of posts, but I was talking to my little brother tonight, who is currently reading Fires of Heaven, and was telling him to keep an eye out for anything unusual.  I explained the BUT to him, and he asked if it was book 4 through 6, or book 4 or 6 (excluding 5).  I told him there was some uncertainty on that point, and he mentioned that book 5 doesn't have a single Perrin chapter in it.  Might be nothing, or maybe he was wrong (he's got my book, so I can't check), but if that's true, it may indicate that the BUT has something to with Perrin.

Being a somewhat family author, RJ decided to leave the details of Perrin and Faile's honeymoon out of the story. They spent a good bit of time, an entire book, 'celebrating' the victory over the trollocs.  :-X

[tje]

I am currently rereading the 4th book and maybe its just a fantasy of mine or some hair brained theory but while in the Stone Nynevae, Elayne and Egwene i believe were all talking about marriage when Moiraine enters the discussion and says something to the extent of her knowing the face of the man she will marry. This conversation is very informal and did not have the feel of the usual Moiraine aloofness. When the trio ask her about who it is she brushes it off as if she was saying that no one really knows who they will marry. The setup of the scene and dialog seem to suggest that she is just covering her slip. Later in the fourth book Thom walks in on Moiraine in his room. Thom daydreams over Moiraine for a little bit and then they have a very very personal conversation which leaves Thom on his knees crying. In this conversation Moiraine promises Thom he will live through Tanchico which must be the truth since she said it. Which implies that one of her three questions either had something to do with thom or she in some other way can predict the future. I believe that these two scenes in connection with the fact that Moiraine writes Thom a letter asking him to save her may just hint at Thom and Moiraine's future together. I hope I explained this well enough and sorry for spelling errors.

[Luther]

Not much is said about the Horn of Valere since after books 4-6, Is there a chance that it could of gone missing at the white tower? this idea might seem kinda dumb but i just never hear anything about it anymore other then last I remember it was put away in a store room or I think it was, it was that or left in the Amyrlin's study which for the past several books was taken by Elaida a'Roihan, I don't remember her ever seeing the horn plus all the black ajah's snooping around the tower, there was what? 90somthing or more? in the tower.

 

Sorry if you guys already talked about this or if this is a really often subject, I just didn't have the time to go threw all the pages in this post.

 

But I think we can all agree the horn is extremely important.

[Shadow Rider]

Not much is said about the Horn of Valere since after books 4-6, Is there a chance that it could of gone missing at the white tower? this idea might seem kinda dumb but i just never hear anything about it anymore other then last I remember it was put away in a store room or I think it was, it was that or left in the Amyrlin's study which for the past several books was taken by Elaida a'Roihan, I don't remember her ever seeing the horn plus all the black ajah's snooping around the tower, there was what? 90somthing or more? in the tower.

 

Sorry if you guys already talked about this or if this is a really often subject, I just didn't have the time to go threw all the pages in this post.

 

But I think we can all agree the horn is extremely important.

 

 

I've thought about that and I'm wondering if Verin did take the Horn to the Tower or did she hide it somewhere.....we'll find out when Mat reads her letter and I'm positive the location of the Horn is in the Verins letter.

[Cirin]

I am currently rereading the 4th book and maybe its just a fantasy of mine or some hair brained theory but while in the Stone Nynevae, Elayne and Egwene i believe were all talking about marriage when Moiraine enters the discussion and says something to the extent of her knowing the face of the man she will marry. This conversation is very informal and did not have the feel of the usual Moiraine aloofness. When the trio ask her about who it is she brushes it off as if she was saying that no one really knows who they will marry. The setup of the scene and dialog seem to suggest that she is just covering her slip. Later in the fourth book Thom walks in on Moiraine in his room. Thom daydreams over Moiraine for a little bit and then they have a very very personal conversation which leaves Thom on his knees crying. In this conversation Moiraine promises Thom he will live through Tanchico which must be the truth since she said it. Which implies that one of her three questions either had something to do with thom or she in some other way can predict the future. I believe that these two scenes in connection with the fact that Moiraine writes Thom a letter asking him to save her may just hint at Thom and Moiraine's future together. I hope I explained this well enough and sorry for spelling errors.

 

I'm fairly certain that this has been discussed quite a bit, though, so I think that probably rules it out as the Big Unnoticed Thing.

[DocBean]

Could it be that Shaidar Haran is the Dark One?

We saw early forms of him in book 1 and 2, but weren't really introduced to him until LOC.

Didn't the seals start to break at that point?

One of the forsaken mistook him for the Dark One, and if he was somewhat free in the Age of Legends, I would think she'd recognize him.

 

Is it possible we were supposed to notice that the seals were broken at the same time Shaidar Haran in his current form started walking the world?

Could it be that Shaidar Haran is actually the Dark One?

 

that would be a big face-palm moment.

 

In the age of Legends the Bore was opened, and the Dark One could touch the world.

However, he didn't destroy things right away. He methodically went to work and turned people to his side.

Therefore, we can't assume once Rand destroys the seals and releases the Dark One that much will change.

 

Is it possible that the Dark One has been somewhat free all along, and is just getting stronger, that his body is Shaidar Haran?

The problem with this theory is that Fades were created after the bore was opened, so unless Aginor created them in the image of the Dark One, then he probably doesn't look like that.

He probably doesn't take the form of any body.

[Cirin]

I don't think that one is really unnoticed either.  Like I just posted on the Shaidar Haran board, they say that he's the Dark One in a myrdraal's body in book 10.  Now, granted, it's only from Alviarin's PoV, but I think, anyway, that she is right.

[DocBean]

I don't think that one is really unnoticed either.  Like I just posted on the Shaidar Haran board, they say that he's the Dark One in a myrdraal's body in book 10.  Now, granted, it's only from Alviarin's PoV, but I think, anyway, that she is right.

 

It has been implied on at least two occasions that Shaidar Haran may not actually be a Myrddraal by other characters. Once when Alviarin witnessed his punishment of Mesaana and thought that he was "the Great Lord, clothed in the skin of a Myrddraal", and again when he rescued Semirhage and she though that "she did not think this thing was truly a Myrddraal". Alviarin's interpretation was, however, tempered by a great deal of terror and ignorance.

 

We've also seen that he gets weaker the further from Shayol Ghul he gets, and seems to be limited by where he can go. We've also seen him stop anyone from being able to Channel when he's around. That could be some sort of ter'angreal, or it's just a power that the Dark One possesses. – which will be problematic for Rand IMO.

 

However, you are correct in that it's been discussed a little bit. It's very possible that Sanderson has never seen the theory that Shaidar Haran is the Dark One, rather then just an avatar for the Dark One.

[DocBean]

This big unnoticed thing has really given me something to think about this week. Other then work that is.

 

I used to have a website bookmarked that was really old discussions from these books. Does anyone have anything like that?

I'm having a really hard time remembering what people talked about after books 4, 5, and 6.

 

I don't really even remember what was going on in those books. Sanderson bringing up Asmodean, makes me think of him.

I remember having a theory that no one believed back then that Rand actually had turned Asmodean to the good side.

It doesn't matter now, but I always believed that Asmodean had been saved, and when he was killed he wasn't reborn by the

Dark One because the Dark One no longer had any power over him.

 

The only other thing about Asmodean that I remember is that when Rand cut his clean power cord that he shimmered and split

in two just like when Rand and Moridin crossed paths of balefire creating a link between them.

 

[talligan]

Random thought while I procrastinate (hopefully this turns out better than my failed Aes Sedai child theory) - what about the dragons on chieftan and Rand's arms? This was introduced in book 4/5ish and not much was made of it after he killed Couladin. Why was he marked with dragons aside from showing the Aiel he was the caracarn? Why are chiefs marked like that? Surely those dragons must do something else.

 

Another random thought, why don't they just send some Tinker's through the doorway found in Rhuidean so they can listen to the song that made the fields grow? Or is that crazy?

[aunt_pol]

Yeah, that is interesting actually.

 

WHY would the Aiel be the people of the dragon at all?  From Rand's Rhuidean show, it seemed like the Aiel were there to serve in a general way.  Why would they have been dedicated to LTT specifically, and in what fashion?

 

Isn't it a bit odd that the marks happen, (seemingly unknown to them - Rand did seem unaware when Rhuarc told him to up sleeves), while they're wandering around in their ancestor's memories?

And that it still has such significance in clan/tribe hierarchy - it was vital to Rhuarc that Rand reveal the Dragons to prove his position.

Plenty to think on there, not least the technicalities of it. Magic is cool.

[Tommatt]

During my reread the unseen eyes pop out, as do the red banded aeil.  One thing I wouldnt rule out on the books alone is the dice.  If he;s willing to say 4-6, the last chapter of 3 is considered 4 IMO.  One could easily mix it up as easily as a broad range of 3 books in this scope.  Even it makes you think book 5, given the scope.  Anything end of book 3, begining of book 7 I'd call game

[OptimusPrime]

Yeah, that is interesting actually.

 

WHY would the Aiel be the people of the dragon at all?  From Rand's Rhuidean show, it seemed like the Aiel were there to serve in a general way.  Why would they have been dedicated to LTT specifically, and in what fashion?

 

Isn't it a bit odd that the marks happen, (seemingly unknown to them - Rand did seem unaware when Rhuarc told him to up sleeves), while they're wandering around in their ancestor's memories?

And that it still has such significance in clan/tribe hierarchy - it was vital to Rhuarc that Rand reveal the Dragons to prove his position.

 

AIEL: We're the people of the Dragon!

RAND: Well, im the Dragon Reborn. Does that count?

AIEL: No! You're He Who Comes With The Dawn.

RAND: But Im also the Dragon Reborn!

AIEL: Well... I dont care about that.

RAND: But you said you're the people of the Dragon!

AIEL: Yes, NOT people of the Dragon Reborn.

RAND: Okay, whats this on my arm?

AIEL: Its a Dragon.

RAND: Exactly. Shut up and be my people.

[Luckers]

I always thought Moiraine was an idiot for not guessing the Aiel were the People of the Dragon. Even if she missed Somestha calling Rand a Child of the Dragon, the Aiel are Rand's people by blood, and a people who have come to the Stone for the First Time. I mean her reasons would have been wrong, but still, she should have picked it.

[DocBean]

Brandon said it's the answer to a puzzle that's been going on since books 4 -6.

 

So what are all the puzzling things?

Luckers, have you compiled a list of what everyone has come up with yet?

Brandon also said that someone had emailed him with the correct thing, and that it has been discussed a bit.

 

Here are some puzzles others have come across and some I've been thinking of:

 

What are causing the bubbles of evil? - are they really just the Dark One?

Is it the Dark One's touch that's affecting the weather?

Are the Fins keeping an eye on Rand like they are Mat?

Who are the hidden watchers?

What is going on with Shara?

What is linking Rand, Mat, and Perrin?

What are the secrets the Tinkers and Herid Fel died for?

Why are the sitters so young? - who really cares?

Where do the Fins get their nice human-leather clothing?

Where did Lews come from, when did we start hearing him?

Why couldn't Hopper see Birgette in the Wolf-Dream, but Perrin could?

Why does Rand wear so much black and red?

Is Shaidar Haran the Dark One, and has been free for a long time?

Is all evil created by man, and the Dark One is really just a creation of Rand?

How are the Trollocs moving if the Ways have been sealed?

If Elayne is Pregnant with some Heroes of the Horn, will blowing it make her go into labor?

Why does Rand get 3 women, when Mat is supposed to be the lucky one?

Why doesn't Perrin bang Berrelain when he had the chance?

Where are the F*ing Dragons?

 

can you think of other riddles we don't have an answer to yet?

[DocBean]

One thing that's always bothered me is,

If Randland is a new Age, different from the Age of Legends, how is it we know so much about the Age of Legends?

 

I thought the story went,

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass,

leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth,

and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.

In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come,

an Age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist.

The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings

to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

 

Shouldn't Rand and company have forgotten that the Dark One exists if they're really in a new age?

[OptimusPrime]

No, I reckon Rands ending will set the world to forget about the Dark One, and that in an Age or three the next Lanfear will turn up, search for a power useable by both genders, and rediscover the True Power or whatever it is Fain can do or whatever.

[DocBean]

No, I reckon Rands ending will set the world to forget about the Dark One, and that in an Age or three the next Lanfear will turn up, search for a power useable by both genders, and rediscover the True Power or whatever it is Fain can do or whatever.

 

You're right. Lanfear however will just go by her initials B.P.

[Luckers]

Luckers, have you compiled a list of what everyone has come up with yet?

 

Yes. It can be found here: The Big Unnoticed Thing—Theory Compilation!

 

It's stickied at the top of the board.

 

What are causing the bubbles of evil? - are they really just the Dark One?

 

Yes.

 

Is it the Dark One's touch that's affecting the weather?

 

Mostly. The Bowl plays its part.

 

Are the Fins keeping an eye on Rand like they are Mat?

 

Probably. Though that may be a unique skill of the Eelfinn.

 

Who are the hidden watchers?

 

I've postulated that they are the evil Mordeth encountered in his search for a way to defeat the Shadow. You can read my theory here: The Unseen Eyes of Tel'aran'rhiod

 

What is going on with Shara?

 

The Sh'boan and Sh'botay disapeared mysteriously (Graendal). In addition rumours of Rand's existence have reached them. As a result the lower classes have rebelled against the Ayyad leading to widespread fighting. There has been no word of their current state since then. Some suggest Demandred is there. I find this unlikely.

 

What is linking Rand, Mat, and Perrin?

 

Their tar'maral'ailen.

 

What are the secrets the Tinkers and Herid Fel died for?

 

Firstly, seperate issues. Fel seemingly figured out something about how Rand might win the Last Battle. Min will probably find this. The Tinkers are a RAFO--and not the BUT. They were ruled out by Peter Ahlstrom.

 

Why are the sitters so young? - who really cares?

 

The Pre-split Ajah Heads wanted to rule the Tower themselves, so they pushed in unsuitable candidates on the Hall, and sent Sitters to do the same amongst the Rebels. The idea was that the Tower would unify under Elaida, and the Ajah Heads would rule.

 

Where do the Fins get their nice human-leather clothing?

 

Same place they got the human memories, from humans who went through the Tower of Ghenjei, or the Doorways.

 

Where did Lews come from, when did we start hearing him?

 

The Age of Legends manifestation of the Dragon Soul manifesting due to the Taint, and we start hearing him in The Fires of Heaven, though it has been suggested that the voice that shouts 'now' during the Shadowspawn attack on the Stone in tSR was LTT.

 

Why couldn't Hopper see Birgette in the Wolf-Dream, but Perrin could?

 

Birgitte wanted Perrin to see her.

 

Why does Rand wear so much black and red?

 

Asthetic.

 

Is Shaidar Haran the Dark One, and has been free for a long time?

 

Uncertain. Likely he contains some aspect of the Dark One, but he is not the full Dark One, who is still bound--and even when the Seals fail will only be able to partially touch the Pattern due to the Bore's size.

 

Is all evil created by man, and the Dark One is really just a creation of Rand?

 

No. Evil may be a human concept, but those that we judge to commit evil exist irrespective of our judgements.

 

How are the Trollocs moving if the Ways have been sealed?

 

Not all the Ways have been sealed. Haman is even now trying to address this.

 

Also they have legs.

 

If Elayne is Pregnant with some Heroes of the Horn, will blowing it make her go into labor?

 

No.

 

Why does Rand get 3 women, when Mat is supposed to be the lucky one?

 

Chicks like ranga's in the world of the Wheel.

 

Why doesn't Perrin bang Berrelain when he had the chance?

 

He's just not that into her.

 

Where are the F*ing Dragons?

 

On Rand's arms. They are very shiny.

 

 

[Majsju]

 

Is Shaidar Haran the Dark One, and has been free for a long time?

 

Uncertain. Likely he contains some aspect of the Dark One, but he is not the full Dark One, who is still bound--and even when the Seals fail will only be able to partially touch the Pattern due to the Bore's size.

 

 

 

It is not uncertain at all. According to RJ, the DO projects a shadowy form of himself into SH. He even went as far as saying that SH is the DO in a shadowy form.

Based on that, the conclusions are obvious, and easy to make. SH is physically a different entity than the DO, but he is fully controlled by the DO, overriding whatever personality existed inside him before the DO set up camp.

[DocBean]

I stumbled on a website yesterday that had a compilation of Brandon Sanderson and Robert Jordan quotes from book signings.

 

On that website there was a section where everything Brandon said about the Big Unnoticed thing was highlighted in Red.

One of the things he said was that someone had emailed him about it and was correct, and that it had been discussed a little bit.

 

Does anyone know what site I was on?

I can't find it in my history (I was visiting a lot of sites yesterday)

 

NEVERMIND. I found it:

CONduit XX Salt Lake City, 29 May 2010 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Recently [brandon] read an email a fan sent; this particular fan picked the right small detail. Two - I asked him regarding the big impact of the small detail and he said we have been discussing this big event, which I felt he implied that we (fandom) have been discussing this big event for a long time1.

[Luckers]

 

Is Shaidar Haran the Dark One, and has been free for a long time?

 

Uncertain. Likely he contains some aspect of the Dark One, but he is not the full Dark One, who is still bound--and even when the Seals fail will only be able to partially touch the Pattern due to the Bore's size.

 

 

 

It is not uncertain at all. According to RJ, the DO projects a shadowy form of himself into SH. He even went as far as saying that SH is the DO in a shadowy form.

Based on that, the conclusions are obvious, and easy to make. SH is physically a different entity than the DO, but he is fully controlled by the DO, overriding whatever personality existed inside him before the DO set up camp.

 

Which is more or less what I'd stated. Though that he is controlled is not to say that he is the full Dark One. The degree of control/Dark One directly being SH is the uncertain part.

[Cirin]

 

Is Shaidar Haran the Dark One, and has been free for a long time?

 

Uncertain. Likely he contains some aspect of the Dark One, but he is not the full Dark One, who is still bound--and even when the Seals fail will only be able to partially touch the Pattern due to the Bore's size.

 

 

 

It is not uncertain at all. According to RJ, the DO projects a shadowy form of himself into SH. He even went as far as saying that SH is the DO in a shadowy form.

Based on that, the conclusions are obvious, and easy to make. SH is physically a different entity than the DO, but he is fully controlled by the DO, overriding whatever personality existed inside him before the DO set up camp.

 

Which is more or less what I'd stated. Though that he is controlled is not to say that he is the full Dark One. The degree of control/Dark One directly being SH is the uncertain part.

 

Well, RJ did say in an interview that it's a 24/7 thing, so Shaidar Haran is always tuned to the Dark One like that.  Obviously he doesn't have the Dark One's full power, since the Dark One is sealed, but by all accounts we've been given, it seems that he is the Dark One physically manifesting himself in the world with as much power as he is able to.