The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Luckers]

That was first mentioned in book 1.

[bobothebarbarian]

Look again. Elyas says Rina's been masking it for years, not that he has. I made that mistake too.

are you sure i cant find where they actually talk about the bond but in EotW when we fist meet Elyas he says

"I don't hold with Aes Sedai. The Red Ajah, those that like hunting for men who mess with the One Power, they wanted to gentle me, once. I told them to their faces they were Black Ajah; served the Dark One, I said, and they didn't like that at all. They couldn't catch me, though, once I got into the forest, but they did try. Yes, they did. Come to that, I doubt any Aes Sedai would take kindly to me, after that. I had to kill a couple of Warders. Bad business, that, killing Warders. Don't like it."

you would think his Aes Sedai would track him down if she could for the Killing of the warders but I could be wrong

[Luckers]

Yeah I am sure. It's when Elyas first joins Perrin in Ghealdin and they walk past Masuri. Elyas says he's lucky it wasn't Rina, Perrin asks how that's possible, and Elyas replies that 'a fair number can fuzz the bond. Perhaps they all can. I can tell little more than that Rina is alive'.

 

[metallicafan08]

Is Rina the AS who was made Damane in TGH?or was that Rita I can't quite remember?She became known as Pura right?

[Blackhoof]

maybe, buy i think that her name was Ryma.

[Luckers]

Is Rina the AS who was made Damane in TGH?or was that Rita I can't quite remember?She became known as Pura right?

 

No, the two Aes Sedai made Damane at Falme were Ryma and Sheraine. Rina is in the White Tower. She was a Sitter for the Green though it's unlikely she still is as she is one of the Too Young Sitters.

[yoniy0]

you would think his Aes Sedai would track him down if she could for the Killing of the warders but I could be wrong

I know Luckers already answered this, but since he didn't specify, here's my take on this. The Masking works both ways (we know this from when Elayne needed her alone time with Rand). If Rina used to Bond to track Elyas down, he would also be aware of her and able to keep his distance. So she chooses to Mask the Bond, perhaps hoping that she'd one day be able to find him without it, or perhaps just because she doesn't want him to 'spy' on her life, now that he'd run away.

[Orderofolde]

Also with Elayas, if Rina found him he would likely be killed and so she probably doesn't hunt him because she doesn't want to deal with a Warder's death. 

[Seaine Sedai]

I kind of doubt this is it, given the criteria that Luckers listed on the section of the boards that lists the viable candidates for the BUT.  This goes against it not having anything to do with Aiel Memories and how the Ogier tie in. HOWEVER, one big thing that's been on my mind and that I don't remember being discussed at length was--How did the Seanchan Ogier avoid falling to the Longing?  I think Ogier Gardeners are mentioned before book 4, but we see how they are in ancient times from the Aiel Columns through Rand's ancestor's eyes, and then the Seanchan Ogier are mentioned a few times since for their role in the Deathwatch Guard, and they obviously are VERY different from the Randland Ogier.

[mossman87]

I kind of doubt this is it, given the criteria that Luckers listed on the section of the boards that lists the viable candidates for the BUT.  This goes against it not having anything to do with Aiel Memories and how the Ogier tie in. HOWEVER, one big thing that's been on my mind and that I don't remember being discussed at length was--How did the Seanchan Ogier avoid falling to the Longing?  I think Ogier Gardeners are mentioned before book 4, but we see how they are in ancient times from the Aiel Columns through Rand's ancestor's eyes, and then the Seanchan Ogier are mentioned a few times since for their role in the Deathwatch Guard, and they obviously are VERY different from the Randland Ogier.

 

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html

Week 3 Question: How do the Seanchan Ogier cope with the Longing, given that their duties in the Deathwatch Guard take them overseas? Are there many stedding in Seanchan?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are many more stedding in Seanchan than there are in the part of the world where the story is taking place, and that is why the Seanchan Ogier don't suffer from the Longing. Because there are so many more stedding, they were able to find them more easily even during the Breaking and therefore never had the very extended separation that Ogier on this side of the Aryth Ocean had, though they seldom were able to settle in one for very long until the Breaking ended.

[Seaine Sedai]

I kind of doubt this is it, given the criteria that Luckers listed on the section of the boards that lists the viable candidates for the BUT.  This goes against it not having anything to do with Aiel Memories and how the Ogier tie in. HOWEVER, one big thing that's been on my mind and that I don't remember being discussed at length was--How did the Seanchan Ogier avoid falling to the Longing?  I think Ogier Gardeners are mentioned before book 4, but we see how they are in ancient times from the Aiel Columns through Rand's ancestor's eyes, and then the Seanchan Ogier are mentioned a few times since for their role in the Deathwatch Guard, and they obviously are VERY different from the Randland Ogier.

 

Ah!  Thanks a bunch!

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html

Week 3 Question: How do the Seanchan Ogier cope with the Longing, given that their duties in the Deathwatch Guard take them overseas? Are there many stedding in Seanchan?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are many more stedding in Seanchan than there are in the part of the world where the story is taking place, and that is why the Seanchan Ogier don't suffer from the Longing. Because there are so many more stedding, they were able to find them more easily even during the Breaking and therefore never had the very extended separation that Ogier on this side of the Aryth Ocean had, though they seldom were able to settle in one for very long until the Breaking ended.

[metallicafan08]

I've just struck on an idea which I haven't seen discussed yet (I've read most of the posts on here but not all of them). Could the BUT be something to do with Gaidal Cain's fate? I was just reading tSR and during the chapter "Need" Nyneave bumps into Gaidal and Birgitte. It's when Nyn uses need to find the thing that is a danger to Rand and she ends up in the Panarchs Palace. Here she sees Moggy, remembers how Moggy used compulsion on her and then Birgitte shows up and signals Nyn to leave, they leave and then Birgitte continues to warn Nyn how dangerous Tel'aran'rhoid and Moggy are. She then goes onto say that she shouldn't even be talking to her as it goes against the "Precepts" as she calls them. Shortly after this Gaidal shows up and tells Birgitte she shouldn't be talking to Nyn (who he completely ignores) and how it's too dangerous to mess with Moggy.

 

Gaidal says: "When the Horn calls us, we will fight. When the Wheel weaves us, we will fight. Not until then!" He glowered at her. "Have you forgotten what Moghedien promised you when we followed Lews Therin? I saw her, Birgitte. She will know you here."

 

Birgitte and Nyn then have a brief chat and Birgitte tells Nyn what Moggy's promise was: "She knew what i was, even though I did not. How, I do not know." Birgitte glanced at Cain; he appeared absorbed in his sword, but she lowered her voice anyway. "She promised to make me weep alone for as long as the Wheel turns. She said it as a fact that simply had not happened yet."

 

That's the part that got me thinking because we know sometime after this Cain disappears from Tel'aran'rhoid, sometime during book 5 I think. All discussions i've seen up till this point on the forums are discussing who Cain has been reborn as (Olver, etc) but never discussing if Moggy kept her promise and (as she seemed to be implying in her promise) killed Cain in the World of Dreams.

 

We know that if Moggy had killed him in the World of Dreams he would never be spun out by the Wheel again so Moggy's promise to Birgitte would have been completed. So Gaidal could be dead, but that seems a bit pointless to introduce a character, he gets killed off and we never hear from him again. What if Moggy actually ripped him out of T'A'R much the same as what happened to Birgitte and then put some form of compulsion on him? We may be seeing him in the next book as a baddie (though not through his own choice). I think it all seems to fit the BUT quite well but i'm sure lots of you will disagree lol.

 

One other thing that I found strange is the way that Birgitte says Moggy says her promise as if it were fact, like she knew 100% it would happen. Almost as if she had been through one of the Ter'angreals that show all possible outcomes of your life and the promise was always a constant. Or the Finn's had answered a question with an answer that she knows means her promise WILL happen. Not saying any of that happened but just seems strange she said it as fact, and that it was written in the book to let you know Moggy knew it for fact. Too much reading RJ and these forums makes me question EVERYTHING though lol

 

Thoughts???

[A. Pseudonym]

Unless Cain was bonded, he's dead.

 

What would happen to a Hero who was taken out of TAR like Birgitte instead of being reborn?

 

The thing is, their form in TAR seems to be their soul.... so their soul is moved into the real world?

 

There seems to be a need for whatever the warder bond provides to prevent near-instant death.

 

But what happens when they die in the real world?

 

If Birgitte was assassinated or whatever, what would happen to her? If her soul would simply return to TAR, what is her body and how did it come to be?

[Skeeve the Great]

That's the part that got me thinking because we know sometime after this Cain disappears from Tel'aran'rhoid, sometime during book 5 I think. All discussions i've seen up till this point on the forums are discussing who Cain has been reborn as (Olver, etc) but never discussing if Moggy kept her promise and (as she seemed to be implying in her promise) killed Cain in the World of Dreams.

 

Cain is safe and Birgitte will re-unite with him in some future lives. That's what Min saw in Winter's Heart.

[Random Man]

 

If Birgitte was assassinated or whatever, what would happen to her? If her soul would simply return to TAR, what is her body and how did it come to be?

Now that's a great mystery. Where did the flesh come from for her to exist in the waking world? Should we just accept that as a plot convenience?

[Dreamwalker]

 

If Birgitte was assassinated or whatever, what would happen to her? If her soul would simply return to TAR, what is her body and how did it come to be?

Now that's a great mystery. Where did the flesh come from for her to exist in the waking world? Should we just accept that as a plot convenience?

 

Well, things do seem to have some sort of physical substance in T'A'R - you do keep any hurts you received there when you wake back up, you are able to touch and pick up objects, etc, and you can even go there fully in the flesh through a gateway. So that makes it seem like the Heroes would actually have some sort of physical form in T'A'R (i.e. they're not just images), or that at least some form of matter exists there - albeit a strange one able to be manipulated by people's minds. So I'd say that she already had a physical form in T'A'R to which her soul was tied, and body and soul were ripped out by Moghedien.

[Aquarius]

That's the part that got me thinking because we know sometime after this Cain disappears from Tel'aran'rhoid, sometime during book 5 I think. All discussions i've seen up till this point on the forums are discussing who Cain has been reborn as (Olver, etc) but never discussing if Moggy kept her promise and (as she seemed to be implying in her promise) killed Cain in the World of Dreams.

 

Cain is safe and Birgitte will re-unite with him in some future lives. That's what Min saw in Winter's Heart.

From encyclopaedia-wot:

Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

I'm not so sure it means what you say.

[A. Pseudonym]

So you're saying that when a Hero dies, it's soul is sent to TAR where a body is ... created ... for it to occupy? That her personification in TAR was not her soul, but a TAR body which she was occupying?

 

This body then being capable of existing in the real world, under certain conditions.

 

So why the need for the Warder bond to keep her alive; did it heal her initial weakness, or does it continually sustain her? If Elayne died would she die? Why did Birgitte require a Bond, but her arrow didn't?

And why does she not have the powers she had when summoned by the Horn? Or the memories?

 

Bringing objects out of TAR seems to be significant. What happened to her arrow? I've completely lost track of it...

[Luckers]

That's the part that got me thinking because we know sometime after this Cain disappears from Tel'aran'rhoid, sometime during book 5 I think. All discussions i've seen up till this point on the forums are discussing who Cain has been reborn as (Olver, etc) but never discussing if Moggy kept her promise and (as she seemed to be implying in her promise) killed Cain in the World of Dreams.

 

Cain is safe and Birgitte will re-unite with him in some future lives. That's what Min saw in Winter's Heart.

From encyclopaedia-wot:

Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

 

I'm not so sure it means what you say.

 

Min's viewings are always about the future. Hence if she sees Birgitte with Gaidal (the ugly man) being both younger and older than she it means he's fine and will go on in the cycle of birth and rebirth.

[Sharaman]

 

Bringing objects out of TAR seems to be significant. What happened to her arrow? I've completely lost track of it...

 

Elayne turned the arrow into Moggy's a'dam.

 

[Netizen]

On the subject of Birgitte, what about her bond to Elayne? That happened in TFoH, and is referenced practically every time she or Elayne is throughout the rest of the books. In CoT, Elayne is blathering on about how she & Birgitte 'mirror' each others emotions through the bond, which doesn't seem to happen with any other bonds.

 

I don't know what it could signify, and I don't know how much it's been discussed on the forums, but it's out there now ready to be shot down!

[OptimusPrime]

On the subject of Birgitte, what about her bond to Elayne? That happened in TFoH, and is referenced practically every time she or Elayne is throughout the rest of the books. In CoT, Elayne is blathering on about how she & Birgitte 'mirror' each others emotions through the bond, which doesn't seem to happen with any other bonds.

 

I don't know what it could signify, and I don't know how much it's been discussed on the forums, but it's out there now ready to be shot down!

 

I always imagined this to have something to do with Elayne being pregnant, although chances are thats wrong, I dont know if she was pregnant before bonding her and I also dont know whether or not they began mirroring each other "straight away" after the bond settled into place.

[farthammer]

I thought it was just the result of using a warder bond between people of the same sex, and that the Aiel sister bond is a variation to moderate or limit those types of effects.

[FarShainMael]

Elayne became pregnant (WH Ch12) long after bonding Birgitte (tFoH ch35). the 'mirroring' effect arose somewhere in between. I believe Elayne 'mirrored' Birgitte's drunkenness after Mat recognised her. Also, in WH, Elayne and Birgitte mirror each other's anger, before Rand turns up.

 

[Dreamwalker]

Elayne became pregnant (WH Ch12) long after bonding Birgitte (tFoH ch35). the 'mirroring' effect arose somewhere in between. I believe Elayne 'mirrored' Birgitte's drunkenness after Mat recognised her. Also, in WH, Elayne and Birgitte mirror each other's anger, before Rand turns up.

 

 

This is correct, it all starts long before Elayne's night with Rand.

 

Also, I agree with what farthammer said: it is simply a result of the two of them being the same gender. In WoT, your soul has a gender (you are always reborn the same gender) and there seem to be fundamental differences between the genders - so I'd say that in this sense, their bond allows more than just the sensing of each other's emotions, but rather an actual sharing of each other's emotions because their souls are more similar than a man and woman that are bonded via the Warder bond. The sister bond is a different weave and seems to not have this problem - perhaps it is not tying the two souls together as tightly because they are already similar (the same gender)?