Which Prophecies Were Fufilled In This Book? (spoilers, natch)

[Devlin1969]

Copied from the Q&A SLC Transcription posted at Theoryland.com

 

Question: Is it an assumption that we haven’t seen the last of these individuals right here (I was pointing at the Seanchan assassins)?

 

Brandon Answer: There were five sent. We know one is dead. The other four, they may have lived or died through the assault, it was pretty chaotic, but they are expert warriors with ter’angreal focused on letting them hide.

 

Question: How long does that affect last? Days?

 

Brandon Answer: That affect can be stretched if they take it off, for several weeks. It is going to kill them eventually. If they are wearing it straight, it’s not going to last long, a matter of days, but if they take it off they can hide for a matter of weeks. So, there are four unaccounted for, who have orders to kill as many Aes Sedai as they can.[/Quote]

[Beren]

 

I thought the fulfillment of Siuan and Bryne's prophecy was really lame.

 

 

 

It could have been written better. Or... perhaps that was not the complete fulfilling of that prophecy?

[Krimzin]

Agreed. No further mention of the other four Bloodknives, and within the same setting there is no readership account of how one of the major antagonists is "disposed of" I would have liked more detail on the capture of Elaida. If she ever comes back though I will be highly disappointed.

I thoguht they said how elaida was captured in enough detail. They said that the wall was blown in and the seanchan walked in and gave her a necklace

 

I just think it was the bare minimum amount of information that could have been provided. I would have just liked more based on her stature as an antagonist within the story. That was all. It is completely opinion based.

 

Copied from the Q&A SLC Transcription posted at Theoryland.com

 

Question: Is it an assumption that we haven’t seen the last of these individuals right here (I was pointing at the Seanchan assassins)?

 

Brandon Answer: There were five sent. We know one is dead. The other four, they may have lived or died through the assault, it was pretty chaotic, but they are expert warriors with ter’angreal focused on letting them hide.

 

Question: How long does that affect last? Days?

 

Brandon Answer: That affect can be stretched if they take it off, for several weeks. It is going to kill them eventually. If they are wearing it straight, it’s not going to last long, a matter of days, but if they take it off they can hide for a matter of weeks. So, there are four unaccounted for, who have orders to kill as many Aes Sedai as they can.[/Quote]

 

Thank you for posting that and reminding me. I will be headed up to the book signing with BS later this month in San Jose. I am a court reporter and intend to bring my machine along unless they already have facility set up for recording any commentary or Q&A. In that case I will just enjoy the show. =)

[Kryshah]

So, there has been a huge stabilizing factor for the theories concerning Moridin and Rand being very VERY closely bonded.  Does anyone else think that perhaps Alivia helping Rand die may have something to do with Moridins death rather than Rands?

[Krimzin]

So, there has been a huge stabilizing factor for the theories concerning Moridin and Rand being very VERY closely bonded.  Does anyone else think that perhaps Alivia helping Rand die may have something to do with Moridins death rather than Rands?

 

The only pet theory I could come up with concerning Alivia would be that she might help fake Rand's death, referencing the other pet theory of many regarding the dream of Logain stepping over a "fake" body of Rand.

[Mr Ares]

And, why else write in Elayne having his babies right before TG?

We don't know that she will. They might not be born until after.

If she doesn't have the babies and get back into the main story, now that she has the throne, seems to be a colassal waste. RJ spent an enormous amount of the story building and defining her character to have her just sit pregnant during the last battle. She will have a significant roll as will the rest of the ruling line of Andor.

She can have a significant role while pregnant. She can even have a significant roll, if she's hungry enough. Remember, RJ did say not everything would be tied up at the end.

 

Who is the Seanchan woman that gives Egwene a hand up just as she falls off of a crumbling ledge, in her dream?

A fair few people favour Tuon/Fortuona. I think Egeanin/Leilwin is more likely.

 

The seanchan attacked and gave a hand to egwenes bid for power.

Doesn't fit. "We can reach the top together." They didn't. One or the other could reach the top in that battle, not both.

 

The reason I would most be skeptical about it being fulfilled is because I bet RJ would have had Rand in rags for a couple of chapters at the least, not the few pages found in tGS.

In my experince, people tend not to be brilliant judges how what RJ would have done things.

[deepak_dragonreborn]

Remember Egwene had a dream that she would saved by someone frm the Seanchen.Maybe the 4 killing machines left in the WT attack her at some point and after Rand makes his treaty with the Seanchen, Tuon(or someone else with sword a.k.a Justice that she trades for the treaty) saves her ass.

 

That way her dream prophecy is fulfilled.The question abt the sword is completed.Justice will prob play an important role in the treaty with the Seanchen.What say?

[ravenprincess]

Im pretty sure that the one of min viewing Rand and someone else (LTT) becoming one.

 

I'm pretty sure that vision meant Rand and Moridin becoming one when they bfired together at SL.  LTT was a manifestation of Rand's insanity.

[ravenprincess]

I think it's questionable whether or not the "two shall become one" has been fulfilled. It could be LTT or it could be Moridin.

Definitely, remember Rand's thinking that he wouldn't hear LTT again because he never had - they were always one I think was the exact phrase (or close to it).

 

Also, regarding the binding of the nine moons, I don't think we had anything major enough to suffice (he just intimidated her a bit). What's bothering me in that regard is that now there is no more a daughter of the nine moons *to* bind. Could someone who've read the big white book comment on different references to "nine moons" in Seanchan culture? Anyways, remember that the next book is named ToM, with the obvious Seanchan context, so we might see that one there (maybe this is the wrong thread for that remark. I'll admit I didn't read that thread yet).

 

Also, speaking of prophecies already fulfilled, did anybody else thought that it's weird that Egwene doesn't realize that Rand has already slain his people with a leaf (or was that the sword of peace? Am I confusing prophecies?)?

 

As to the nine moons, the prophecy doesn't say anything about the daughter of the nine moons, just that he will bind the nine moons to serve him.  The court in Seanchain is called the nine moons, so that opens up some interesting possibilities..such as the seanchain people as a whole to the seanchain nobility...it's still pretty vague imo.

[ravenprincess]

There could be the fact that Rand fulfills even a changed prophecy by kneeling to the Crystal Throne expressing his sorrow for trying to force them to peace. It could also mean that he kneels in pain during some sort of suffering or other forced measure. It does not say he must swear allegiance or submit himself to it, just that he must kneel to the Crystal Throne before TG arrives.

 

"The Dragon Reborn must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost."

 

I do believe that in the WOT encyclopedia RJ stated that Ishy corrupted the KC in Seanchain.

[striker]

Who is the Seanchan woman that gives Egwene a hand up just as she falls off of a crumbling ledge, in her dream?

A fair few people favour Tuon/Fortuona. I think Egeanin/Leilwin is more likely.

 

The seanchan attacked and gave a hand to egwenes bid for power.

Doesn't fit. "We can reach the top together." They didn't. One or the other could reach the top in that battle, not both.

 

What about the Seachan general that teamed up with Perrin; she was saying that they need to seek allies among the Randlanders not seek more war; and based on the fact that she just was raised to the blood doesn't she also get a new name?

[Mr Ares]

What about the Seachan general that teamed up with Perrin

Tylee? Interesting. Not sure if I've seen her suggested before.

doesn't she also get a new name?

I don't think she's yet been given a new name - she was going by the old one in TGS. It's a possibility, although I don't think it's as likely as Leilwin. The shifting face to me indicates an uncertainty as to identity, which fits Leilwin best of any Seanchan character.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Question - Not sure of the chapt and/or specifics (don't have my book while at work), but while viewing one of the Aes Sedai, Min saw a black dagger floating above the woman's head.  Not sure of the AS's name but was this something new?  Made me think death by one of the Seanchan assassin daggers.   

[Sentinel78]

Question - Not sure of the chapt and/or specifics (don't have my book while at work), but while viewing one of the Aes Sedai, Min saw a black dagger floating above the woman's head.  Not sure of the AS's name but was this something new?  Made me think death by one of the Seanchan assassin daggers. 

 

I thought this was one of the Aes Sedai that's with Rand (can't remember which), not in the Tower.  Not that this rules out your theory exactly, but makes it less likely.

[FanoLan]

Question - Not sure of the chapt and/or specifics (don't have my book while at work), but while viewing one of the Aes Sedai, Min saw a black dagger floating above the woman's head.  Not sure of the AS's name but was this something new?  Made me think death by one of the Seanchan assassin daggers.   

 

I thought this was one of the Aes Sedai that's with Rand (can't remember which), not in the Tower.  Not that this rules out your theory exactly, but makes it less likely.

 

This was Beldeine, who is with Rand and recently bonded an ash'a'man, namely Karldin Manfor.  She's the one that stalked out of the room after Cads agreed with philoso-Min re: the interpretations of the KC and Callandor.  Interestingly, she was also the Keeper for Egwene in the testing for acceptance when the turning by 13 BA/13 Myrd almost happened after Elaida brought Rand in front of the Hall for gentling.

 

The viewing also made me think of the Bloodknives and I imagine Egwene will have an in-calling of AS pretty soon.  Not that I think the accepted test is as predictive as a Min viewing, not even so much as dreaming, but maybe Min's recent viewing of Beld indicates the shadow, or death by other means than the Bloodknives.

[ShiftedInsights]

As far as the Prophecies go, Moraine speaks of it early in the series that the prophecies are not absolute or guaranteed, instead they are goalposts along the way, and if they are not fulfilled, then there is no chance of victory for the light.  For instance, if Perrin kept the axe instead of the hammer, the Light loses.  If Tigraine didn't heed the advice to go to the Aiel and become a Maiden of the Spear, no Rand, the Light loses.  If Rand was less of a blabbermouth in front of the assembled Aiel after seeing his ancestors memories, he would not have 'broken them with the leaf', the Light loses. If Mat did not randomly buy the golden signet ring with the Fox and Ravens on it, Tuon would not have made the connection to him in regards to the foretelling of her damane, no marriage, the Light loses.  If Elayne & Co. did not find the Bowl of the Winds, winter would never have come, 'winter's heart' would not have been borne from it, the Light loses.  Cadsuane does not get on Rand's last nerve before bringing Tam to him, or Tam does not mention Cadsuane in their meeting, he never stands on his own grave, the Light loses.  

 

This is what Nicola Treehill's Foretelling (and a few other similar references) mean when they say 'the future teeters on the edge of a blade.'  There is no guarantee in the prophecies, and the Pattern might push things along a little, but if a single element does not occur, its curtains for reality.  

 

From this, consider the Dark Prophecies.  For the Light to win, I would conjecture that at least one element of the Dark Prophecies must fail to be made manifest to prevent the Dark Lord from coming. I would further conjecture that there is an either/or overlay in an element of the Dark Prophecy and Light Prophecy where if one happens, the other cannot. I do not think we can know yet, because I do not know if we have seen the entirety of the Karaethon cycle (a new verse or two seem to show up, or be reinterpreted from a different scholar about every book or so ;) ), or the entirety of the dark prophecy.  

 

I would also conjecture that this is the reason for Ishy's corruption of the Seanchan version of the prophecies.  Theirs requires Rand to bow to the Crystal Throne, and Randland's requires him to bind the Nine Moons to serve him.If Randland's is the pure version, that means if Rand bows to the Crystal Throne instead of binding the Nine Moons to serve him, the Light loses.  The only way out of that is if the two things are not mutually exclusive and he can both kneel and bind, but that would require both versions to be uncorrupted by the Shadow, which is not the case.

 

 

And to attempt to clarify someone's previous question (Luckers, enlighten me if I am wrong) The Seanchan test for damane and suldam is the same test that the Aei Sedai use to tell who can channel, they are just ignorant of the fact that those without the spark can channel too.  So when the 'can you touch the power test is done' if they have the innate spark it is off to slavery, but if they the ability without the spark, then she gets the sweet job with the high social status and clothes in a color other than gray. 

[russianxpride]

I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned this, but I'm pretty sure this book ends in mid-prophecy.  Specifically, the prophecy in the epilogue:

 

"And at its center,

the blind man shall stand

upon his own grave.

There he shall see again,

and weep for what has been wrought."

 

Well book 12 ended w/ Rand standing atop Dragonmount (his own grave).  The final lines of chapter 50 mention him truly opening his eyes for the first time in a very long while.  So me thinks book 13 will start off with Rand coping with the consequences of everything he did between Semi's attack and the end of book 12.  Also, the "and weep for what has been wrought" line seems to coincide with Cadsuane needing to show him to laugh and cry.  (I'm thinking her pushing Tam onto Rand is what in turn made him relearn to laugh)

[Mercer]

I still wonder if Min's viewing of Rand -- was it with a beggars staff or with a cloth around his eyes? -- was methaphorical or literal.

[Michelleharper]

I noticed Rand pretty much has the North and the East all wrapped up in one pretty package.  Not perfectly, but he is well on his way to fulfilling the answer he got through the doorway about the Last Battle.  The Seanchan are pretty close to having the South and the West wrapped up into one little package.  Since the two must be as one, we're just waiting on Rand and Fortuona to make an agreement to make the two one.  So, even though this hasn't been fulfilled, it's on the cusp.  At least, I think so.

[morkhon]

Im pretty sure that the one of min viewing Rand and someone else (LTT) becoming one.

When I read the chapter where Rand visits Moridin in his dream, I started to think the prophecy was the two of them becoming one. Somehow they're connected, which is mentioned in that chapter.

 

Didn't the end of the book basically say that Rand and LTT were never two people?

[jemron]

I still wonder if Min's viewing of Rand -- was it with a beggars staff or with a cloth around his eyes? -- was methaphorical or literal.

 

Brandon said at the NYC signing/party that this was fulfilled at the end of TGS as he hopped from place to place and ended up on Dragonmount.

[Beren]

I noticed Rand pretty much has the North and the East all wrapped up in one pretty package.  Not perfectly, but he is well on his way to fulfilling the answer he got through the doorway about the Last Battle.  The Seanchan are pretty close to having the South and the West wrapped up into one little package.  Since the two must be as one, we're just waiting on Rand and Fortuona to make an agreement to make the two one.  So, even though this hasn't been fulfilled, it's on the cusp.  At least, I think so.

 

I am not sure that the "two must be as one" is Rand's territory and the Seanchan territory. I think it is Rand and Moridin.

[Sentinel78]

I am not sure that the "two must be as one" is Rand's territory and the Seanchan territory. I think it is Rand and Moridin.

 

??? How do you figure?  Moridin controlling the Blight and... what, Shara?  The question was how does Rand win the Last Battle --- why "must" Moridin control part of the world for this to happen?

[analyticalkeys]

I am not sure that the "two must be as one" is Rand's territory and the Seanchan territory. I think it is Rand and Moridin.

 

??? How do you figure?  Moridin controlling the Blight and... what, Shara?  The question was how does Rand win the Last Battle --- why "must" Moridin control part of the world for this to happen?

 

Who said anything about either of them controlling territory? He was saying that "The two must be one." only refers to Rand and Moridin becoming one with each other.

[mike-cook]

I think the 2 must be as one is Rand and Lews Therin, with Rand finally realizing the 2 of them are actually 1 and the same. Also referring to Moridin and Rand, Min's viewing says nothing about them becoming one. "I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't." They merge into one another not become one so I think they just swap personalities or something like that.