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JenniferL

Which Prophecies Were Fufilled In This Book? (spoilers, natch)

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I think the 2 must be as one is Rand and Lews Therin, with Rand finally realizing the 2 of them are actually 1 and the same. Also referring to Moridin and Rand, Min's viewing says nothing about them becoming one. "I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't." They merge into one another not become one so I think they just swap personalities or something like that.

Last page of Rand's last chapter of the book contains: 'He knew-somehow-that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.'

 

If they were never two, then how can two become one? I think it's a pretty straightforward line intended to say the prophecy clearly didn't refer to Rand and LTT's voice. The more I read the chapter where Rand visits Moridin's dream, the more I think those two are destined to somehow meld together.

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Rand and LTT were never 2 people because they're essentially the same person. Dragon and whatnot.

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i think we have seen half of the aelfinn prophecy of "the north/east south/west must be as one". but i don't think it has anything to do with bringing nations together. I posted in the gen discussion board, but couldn't expand w/out spoilers.

The north/east south/west refers to the symbol of the Aes Sedai. The black area takes of up the northern and eastern areas of the symbol and represents the black tower. The white area takes up the south and west areas, and represents the white tower. Both of these towers have been split, and must be made as one if Rand is to win the final battle. The Aelfinn did not specify that Rand had to be the one to unite them. We have now seen Egwene bring the south and west as one when she unifies the white tower.

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I think the 2 must be as one is Rand and Lews Therin, with Rand finally realizing the 2 of them are actually 1 and the same. Also referring to Moridin and Rand, Min's viewing says nothing about them becoming one. "I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't." They merge into one another not become one so I think they just swap personalities or something like that.

Last page of Rand's last chapter of the book contains: 'He knew-somehow-that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.'

 

If they were never two, then how can two become one? I think it's a pretty straightforward line intended to say the prophecy clearly didn't refer to Rand and LTT's voice. The more I read the chapter where Rand visits Moridin's dream, the more I think those two are destined to somehow meld together.

Yeah I agree, it did say that Rand and LTT were one person the whole time and Rand's link with Moridin hints at the possibility that they will be forced into some sort of conflict where one will "absorb" the other.

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They weren't  two different persons Rand and LTT but rand perceived it as such and therefor he got confused and screwed in the old thinker, by finally realizing the truth he merged himself and thus fulfilling the prophecy.

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I think Cadsuane taught Rand laughter and tears. Not sure on that one, but that's my guess.

 

maybe Cadsuna already taught him what he needed to be taught from her

she told him that Callandor cannot be controlled by a lone man, and he need to surrender willingly to the will a of woman.

 

or teaching cannot be applied on that?

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He doesn't need to surrender to a woman, though.  That's her preconception.

 

It could be 2 men and a woman linked together with the other man in control, for instance.

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He doesn't need to surrender to a woman, though.  That's her preconception.

 

It could be 2 men and a woman linked together with the other man in control, for instance.

thats not true

 

in (The Gathering Storm), Chapter 47 (The One He Lost)

in Rand thoughts to himself he said "Callandor was inferior; to use it, a man had

to subject himself to the will a of woman. Besides, it was powerful, but not nearly as powerful as the Choedan Kal."

 

and in chapter 37 (A Force of Light)

Rand Said "Cadsuane told me that the second failure came from a flaw in Callandor itself. It cannot be controlled by a lone man, you see. It only works if he's in a box. Callandor is a carefully

enticing leash, intended to make me surrender willingly."

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He doesn't need to surrender to a woman, though.  That's her preconception.

 

It could be 2 men and a woman linked together with the other man in control, for instance.

 

 

maybe it's her preconcpetion, maybe it's not. She thinks it's true though, and she's Aes Sedai.

 

"It is flawed," she replied curtly, "lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind. So long as a man is using it, anyway. The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows."

 

It's interesting that Callandoor doesn't have a buffer. Really, how powerful can it be?

 

Also my theory is that Rand will use Callandoor with Aviendha and Elayne. If he needs to give control to another these are the only two I think he trusts enough.

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He doesn't need to surrender to a woman, though.  That's her preconception.

 

It could be 2 men and a woman linked together with the other man in control, for instance.

 

 

maybe it's her preconcpetion, maybe it's not. She thinks it's true though, and she's Aes Sedai.

 

"It is flawed," she replied curtly, "lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind. So long as a man is using it, anyway. The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows."

 

It's interesting that Callandoor doesn't have a buffer. Really, how powerful can it be?

 

Also my theory is that Rand will use Callandoor with Aviendha and Elayne. If he needs to give control to another these are the only two I think he trusts enough.

 

i second that, and i mentioned earlier in another topic here

i believe that Rand, Aviendha and Elayne will make a circle and use Callandor, thus another prophecy will fullfill, as i believe the "the three become one" can indicate the state of those 3 in one circle together.

for Rand is bonded to both Elayne and Aviendha, and those two already share a bond together, being in a circle together they that will enhance there feeling of each others, chanelling through callendor will even enhance that feeling, and they will really be like one then

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He doesn't need to surrender to a woman, though.  That's her preconception.

 

It could be 2 men and a woman linked together with the other man in control, for instance.

thats not true

 

in (The Gathering Storm), Chapter 47 (The One He Lost)

in Rand thoughts to himself he said "Callandor was inferior; to use it, a man had

to subject himself to the will a of woman. Besides, it was powerful, but not nearly as powerful as the Choedan Kal."

 

and in chapter 37 (A Force of Light)

Rand Said "Cadsuane told me that the second failure came from a flaw in Callandor itself. It cannot be controlled by a lone man, you see. It only works if he's in a box. Callandor is a carefully

enticing leash, intended to make me surrender willingly."

 

It can't be two men and one woman.  In all both gender circles beyond two, the women must outnumber the men by at least one.  The minimum circle that would work Callandor would be two women and one man.

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Well, you can get a link with 2 men and 1 woman. Remember in the TFOH, Asmodean suggests to Rand letting Moraine link the 2 of them, as long as he didn't mind letting her know who he was. But as to the topic at hand, I would think that Cadsuane is probably right.

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It can't be two men and one woman.  In all both gender circles beyond two, the women must outnumber the men by at least one.  The minimum circle that would work Callandor would be two women and one man.

 

Untrue. Two men and one woman can be in a circle together, as can two men and two women (as well as one man and one woman). Above that number, women must outnumber men.

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It can't be two men and one woman.  In all both gender circles beyond two, the women must outnumber the men by at least one.  The minimum circle that would work Callandor would be two women and one man.

 

Untrue. Two men and one woman can be in a circle together, as can two men and two women (as well as one man and one woman). Above that number, women must outnumber men.

 

The 'three become one' prophesy could relate to Rand, Matt and Perin.

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It can't be two men and one woman.  In all both gender circles beyond two, the women must outnumber the men by at least one.  The minimum circle that would work Callandor would be two women and one man.

 

Untrue. Two men and one woman can be in a circle together, as can two men and two women (as well as one man and one woman). Above that number, women must outnumber men.

 

You are correct, sir.  Apologies for the error.

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I'm going out on a crazy limb here...but if you accept as some suggest that the three becoming one are saidin saidar, and TP, the three could be Moridin, Rand, and a female channeler.

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There are times that I think we try to take the prophecies far to literally.

 

Yes LTT and Rand have always been the same person, but Rand never BELIEVED that. He always saw LTT as a separate entity that he had to fight, such as with LTT grabbing for the source and trying to take control. the separate personalities were there even if they were both the same man.

 

His self awareness and acceptance of this fact could easily fulfill the 2 become 1 prophecy. As well as Min's viewing of the two merging and 1 seeming to die, because the Voice of LTT fading away with rand's acceptance is in itself a death of an extraneous personality.

 

Some of the prophecies are definitely literal, but a lot are also very figurative. I believe that these one's are of that nature. The Moridin bit, although there is definitely a connection there, doesn't make sense. How would they merge and have Moridin just cease to be?

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There are times that I think we try to take the prophecies far to literally.

 

Yes LTT and Rand have always been the same person, but Rand never BELIEVED that. He always saw LTT as a separate entity that he had to fight, such as with LTT grabbing for the source and trying to take control. the separate personalities were there even if they were both the same man.

 

His self awareness and acceptance of this fact could easily fulfill the 2 become 1 prophecy. As well as Min's viewing of the two merging and 1 seeming to die, because the Voice of LTT fading away with rand's acceptance is in itself a death of an extraneous personality.

 

Some of the prophecies are definitely literal, but a lot are also very figurative. I believe that these one's are of that nature. The Moridin bit, although there is definitely a connection there, doesn't make sense. How would they merge and have Moridin just cease to be?

 

I agree with this assessment.  I think the Rand/LTT take is dead on.  Rand and LTT have always been the same person.  Perhaps Rand created the distinct persona that he and we have come to identify as LTT out of a subconscious desire to separate himself from the insanity that consumed LTT.  Kind of like keeping away the crazy.  Multiple Identity Disorder, anyone?  I think that's what you are alluding to.  Successful therapy for MID does entail merging the distinct personalities into a composite whole.

 

Second, I just can't see Moridin merging with Rand (in Slayer fashion).  I just don't think RJ has it in him to combine the greatest tool for evil with the champion of the Light.  Why taint the hero?  Now I don't rule out the possibility that Moridin can be convinced to switch sides, but this is highly unlikely.  Still, he does come across as less...evil, less mysterious, and more the 'good' soldier (for a bad cause) in his latest incarnation.  Not sure where that character is headed.

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Somebody mentioned the Aelfinn's north-to-east, south-to-west prophecy.

 

It's seemed to me that the Blight and Shara are the north and east, and the main continent and nations we know and Seanchan are the south and east.  It works if you believe, as I do, that Demandred has very likely been winning influence in Shara and biding his time for the last battle.  Obviously the directions could reference any number of things, but I think it's safe to assume they don't actually mean what Rand assumes they do, that's how you keep the story fresh despite all of us and all of the characters knowing the prophecies.

 

Also, the blind beggar prophecy has obviously been at least partially fulfilled, but I don't think we saw the end of it.  I think Rand's fun on Dragonmount must have left him permanently blind.  I'm not opposed to symbolic interpretations of any of these puzzles, but knowing the Fisher King legend makes me think he will actually be blind, and that being a part of the beggar prophecy suggests it should happen around the same time.

 

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Second, I just can't see Moridin merging with Rand (in Slayer fashion).  I just don't think RJ has it in him to combine the greatest tool for evil with the champion of the Light.  Why taint the hero?  Now I don't rule out the possibility that Moridin can be convinced to switch sides, but this is highly unlikely.  Still, he does come across as less...evil, less mysterious, and more the 'good' soldier (for a bad cause) in his latest incarnation.  Not sure where that character is headed.

I still have a hard time ignoring that chapter where they intrude on each other's dreams. I have a strong feeling somehow those two will meld together.

 

By the way, just started a re-read of the series and in EotW, about halfway through in a chapter called 'Flight Down the Arinelle', Rand is having a dream about Ba'alzamon. His dream ends with...

 

'He found himself staring at the refletion of his own face, pale and shivering in the knife-edge cold. Ba'alzamon's image grew behind his, staring at him; not seeing, bur staring still. In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging. He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen. There was only one face in those endless mirrors. His own face. Ba'alzamon's face. One face.'

 

Seems like 19 years ago RJ was already hinting that these two were somehow connected, becoming one.

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Somebody mentioned the Aelfinn's north-to-east, south-to-west prophecy.

 

It's seemed to me that the Blight and Shara are the north and east, and the main continent and nations we know and Seanchan are the south and east.  It works if you believe, as I do, that Demandred has very likely been winning influence in Shara and biding his time for the last battle.  Obviously the directions could reference any number of things, but I think it's safe to assume they don't actually mean what Rand assumes they do, that's how you keep the story fresh despite all of us and all of the characters knowing the prophecies.

 

You're ignoring the counterpart to the Aelfinn prophecy in the Karaethon Cycle. "The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south." The "he" is clearly Rand. It also reverberates in Nicola's Foretelling: "The land divided by the return."

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Just some things I think some of the prophecy could mean, my thoughts in red, feel free to comment

 

And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered, and the Shadow shall lie across the Pattern of the Age, and the Dark One shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man. Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth. Neither shall anything stand or abide…

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before, and shall be born again,(saying that this wont be the game over rand hopes for?) time without end. The Dragon shall be Reborn, and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind. Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. Let tears flow, O ye people of the world. Weep for your salvation.

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born,

born of a maiden wed to no man.

He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.

When the winds of Tarmon Gai’don scour the earth,

he will face the Shadow and bring forth Light again in the world.(pretty much says rand wins)

Twice and twice shall he be marked,(could this mean twice marked(herons,dragons and twice (side wound 1 and 2?)

twice to live, and twice to die.(live once and die once to fight in the last battle, then live once and die once after?)

Once the heron, to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.(mourning of rand, birth of his children? or mourning of rand then his rebirth?)

Red on black, the Dragon’s blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

Five ride forth, and four return.(rand,mat,perrin + two women helping with callandor? who dies?)

Above the Watchers Over the Waves shall he proclaim himself,

bannered ‘cross the sky in fire.

When the Dragon is Reborn he will break all oaths, shatter all ties.

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon’s hand.

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till the People of the Dragon come.

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

Power of the Shadow made human flesh,(shaidar haran? Myrddraal flesh is human flesh?)

wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.

The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,

dances the sword in dreams and mist,

chains the Shadowsworn to his will,(asmodean)

from the city, lost and forsaken,

leads the spears to war once more,

breaks the spears and makes them see,

truth long hidden in the ancient dream.

He shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf.

With his coming are the dread fires born again.

The hills burn, and the land turns sere.

The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle.

The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised.

Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth.

There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death.

The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign.(men and women aes sedai again)

The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen.

Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom.(shara and possibly having a role in the last battle?)

What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up.(male and female channelers)

Order burns to clear his path.(some refer to the seanchan as order, rand defeats them to focus on the last battle?)

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow,

for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.(we saw what bad rand did to the land)

Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield.(old rand)

He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow.

Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.(new rand finding tears and love at the end of tgs)

As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men,

and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes.

The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice,

and he shall wear a crown of swords.

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,

wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.

Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,

may learn the truth too late.

The Seals that hold back the night shall weaken,

and in the heart of winter shall winter’s heart be born,

amid the wailings of lamentations and the gnashing of teeth,

for winter’s heart shall ride a black horse, and the name of it is Death.

And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides,

when the right hand falters and the left hand strays,

that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight,

and all that is, all that was,

and all that will be shall be shall balance on the point of a sword,

while the winds of the Shadow grow.

He shall heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope.

He shall bind the nine moons to serve him.(by defeating them?)

The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.

He shall break the nations, and shatter the world.

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul,

washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man’s salvation.(instead of rands blood could it be his children's blood? that would be a bigger sacrifice)

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known.

when the Fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown.

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Did you actually compile that list yourself??? 

 

Disagreed with you on at least one of them:

 

twice to live, and twice to die.(live once and die once to fight in the last battle, then live once and die once after?)

 

I think this is yet another reference to Rand dying and yet living again.  If Rand dies and is reborn somehow (I think this is going to be a Moridin body-swap, but it could be more Jesus-like, I mean the creator already talked to the guy once in Book 1), that means he's lived once, died once, then lived twice.  Eventually, if you buy this theory, he'd die again of old age hundreds of years later, i.e., died twice. 

 

To live twice and die twice, you need to be reborn/resurrected once.

 

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