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JenniferL

Which Prophecies Were Fufilled In This Book? (spoilers, natch)

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Here is something that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Who is the Seanchan woman that gives Egwene a hand up just as she falls off of a crumbling ledge, in her dream? As we left matters in the WT, she had things well in hand. What is her next coming crisis and who helps her? I think she will find another Alivia, amoung the damane that were captured. That damane will either teach her something about the Seanchan or give her the something sorely needed at a crucial time. This dream came when she had the dream about the attack. She hasn't dwelled on it, but I feel it is important.

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In response to "I believe the link between them is complete, if Rand dies, so does moridin and if moridin dies so does Rand".  Min's viewing from Chpt. 33 "A Bath" of Crown of Swords,

 

"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and...." Her mouth tightened worriedly, and she went on in a very small voice. "I don't know what it means, Rand, except that one of you dies, and one doesn't." 

 

We know that Rand dies from NUMEROUS viewings/prophecies.  We know now for sure that the above-noted viewing does not apply to LTT/Rand, and most likely applies to Moridin/Rand.  Accordingly, because (i) Rand dies, and (ii) one of Rand and Moridin have to die, it follows that Moridin lives.  The only way that's likely to happen is if Rand lives on as Moridin, because if Moridin survives that means he either goes over to the Light (which I don't really buy) or the DO wins (which I also don't see happening), and it explains Min's other viewing about Aviendha's babies with Rand being somewhat 'wrong', from Chpt 12 of Winter's Heart:

 

"Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd."

 

Plus, with Rand's body being almost broken (missing hand, physical illness from taint, fain/ishamael wounds and I still think he's going to go blind), it's kind of poetic justice to give him a fresh body if he's really going to live past the last battle.

 

Anyway, I'm not saying this is a mathematical proof, just what I think.  We'll see what happens.

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Here is something that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Who is the Seanchan woman that gives Egwene a hand up just as she falls off of a crumbling ledge, in her dream? As we left matters in the WT, she had things well in hand. What is her next coming crisis and who helps her? I think she will find another Alivia, amoung the damane that were captured. That damane will either teach her something about the Seanchan or give her the something sorely needed at a crucial time. This dream came when she had the dream about the attack. She hasn't dwelled on it, but I feel it is important.

Could the seanchan woman be figurative? Or that woman is Tuon who ordered the attack?

I think the 'hand' that the seanchan gave her was taking out Elaida making the transfer alot easier

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Here is something that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Who is the Seanchan woman that gives Egwene a hand up just as she falls off of a crumbling ledge, in her dream? As we left matters in the WT, she had things well in hand. What is her next coming crisis and who helps her? I think she will find another Alivia, amoung the damane that were captured. That damane will either teach her something about the Seanchan or give her the something sorely needed at a crucial time. This dream came when she had the dream about the attack. She hasn't dwelled on it, but I feel it is important.

Could the seanchan woman be figurative? Or that woman is Tuon who ordered the attack?

I think the 'hand' that the seanchan gave her was taking out Elaida making the transfer alot easier

 

I don't think this has happened yet - I raised it in the Egwene threat - but not many people have responded yet. I think a second attack with happen .. but that would mean Egwene's power will crumble again - I would hate to see that all go back wards. :-?

 

Anajon

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Here is something that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Who is the Seanchan woman that gives Egwene a hand up just as she falls off of a crumbling ledge, in her dream? As we left matters in the WT, she had things well in hand. What is her next coming crisis and who helps her? I think she will find another Alivia, amoung the damane that were captured. That damane will either teach her something about the Seanchan or give her the something sorely needed at a crucial time. This dream came when she had the dream about the attack. She hasn't dwelled on it, but I feel it is important.

Could the seanchan woman be figurative? Or that woman is Tuon who ordered the attack?

I think the 'hand' that the seanchan gave her was taking out Elaida making the transfer alot easier

 

I don't think this has happened yet - I raised it in the Egwene threat - but not many people have responded yet. I think a second attack with happen .. but that would mean Egwene's power will crumble again - I would hate to see that all go back wards. :-?

 

Anajon

The exact words

“She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. [...] Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. [...] Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent.”

 

Egeanin is carrying around a sword I believe. So she may help somehow in the future.  Could also be Fortuona but how their meeting would happen I can't imagine.

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The exact words

“She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. [...] Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. [...] Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent.”

 

Egeanin is carrying around a sword I believe. So she may help somehow in the future.  Could also be Fortuona but how their meeting would happen I can't imagine.

The way I see it was that it happened already in the attack. The seanchan attacked and gave a hand to egwenes bid for power. I interpret the sword as the symbol of attack, and the descenting out of the clouds was them attacking on rakens

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Plus, with Rand's body being almost broken (missing hand, physical illness from taint, fain/ishamael wounds and I still think he's going to go blind), it's kind of poetic justice to give him a fresh body if he's really going to live past the last battle.

 

Anyway, I'm not saying this is a mathematical proof, just what I think.  We'll see what happens.

 

Except Moridin's body isn't exactly fresh what with all that Saa running through his eyes. It would seem clear to me the effects of TP addiction are physical and not attached directly to the soul since the Saa is precursor to Flaming mouth and eyes. If I were Rand I'd keep my addled ridden and beaten up body over taking that TP addicted body. The last thing he's going to want is being addicted to the DO's power.

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I think something that people have to keep in mind is the prophecies being fulfilled in this book (and prophecies through the series in general) is that we have a new author working on the book.

 

Perhaps RJ didn't leave exact notes on how Rand's "beggar" prophecy was to be fulfilled, only that "the blindness is a metaphor" or what have you. The reason I would most be skeptical about it being fulfilled is because I bet RJ would have had Rand in rags for a couple of chapters at the least, not the few pages found in tGS.

 

Which, I think, is a reason others are having a hard time accepting it. Keep in mind that there is a good chance this scene was not one of RJs, so Brandon had to interpret it himself. Consequently, he doesn't make it so Rand is wearing rags, or he doesn't set it up so that Rand has time to go all-out beggar. Is that really a strong basis for argument?

 

Also, since when does literal interpretation count as the be all end all of determining a prophecy(if you can even call it that) fulfilled? For instance, does Perrin LITERALLY have a hawk and a falcon perched on his shoulders? I don't think I've seen that, so I guess that hasn't been fulfilled yet, either.

 

sigh. guess we won't truly know until we RAFO.

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First off, we know that Rand is going to die ("To Live, you must die", references to Logain stepping over his grave, Min's viewing in Eye of World "three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it", etc.)

 

IMHO, many people are interpreting this 'death' as an actual, physical death, and I don't believe that's the way it will happen.  The prophetic statement regarding Logain was not him stepping over Rand's grave, it was him stepping over Rand's body, but the body appeared hollow and crumbled away (a faked death perhaps?).  I truly believe that Rand (with Alivia's help) will somehow fake his death...and that his faked death will be integral to Logain's 'Glory to come' as viewed by Min.

 

But that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.  ;) 

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Here is something that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Who is the Seanchan woman that gives Egwene a hand up just as she falls off of a crumbling ledge, in her dream? As we left matters in the WT, she had things well in hand. What is her next coming crisis and who helps her? I think she will find another Alivia, amoung the damane that were captured. That damane will either teach her something about the Seanchan or give her the something sorely needed at a crucial time. This dream came when she had the dream about the attack. She hasn't dwelled on it, but I feel it is important.

 

Firstly my interpretation is that this dream refers to an army led by Tuon to Egwene's aid. Consider that its a woman, because it is led by Tuon, yet the face shifts because the aid comes from many people. The sword is rock solid revealing the nature of the group of people Tuon leads as an army.

 

That being said I don't think that the raid suffices to answer this dream. The Seanchan woman is on the slope too (facing the same adversity as Egwene, though seemingly not in as dire a situation). She then says 'they can make it together'.

 

The dream, in my opinion, refers to Tuon leading a Seanchan army to Egwene's aid against a common threat--my guess a shadowspawn siege of Tar Valon (or perhaps even of the Tower if an insurgence force through the ways breaches the walls).

 

Whatever it refers to, I don't think its the raid.

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Yeah I can't see the raid on Tar Valon corresponding to the Seanchan lending Egwene a hand, given that Egwene fought off the attack in a frenzy.  The 'help' the Seanchan gave her by abducting Elaida or scaring some sense into the Aes Sedai just seems too indirect and incidental, and there's nothing about reaching the top "together", which implies they'll work together in some manner (which I think implies some type of cooperation).

 

The only things that seem powerful enough to reconcile the Aes Sedai with the Seanchan is a revelation from Fortuona that a'dams are bad or a common threat from a shadowspawn army.

 

I agree that Egeanin just doesn't seem to be in a position to offer anything to Egwene, and the shifting face aspect implies that the Seanchan people are coming to Egwene's aid, not a particular person.

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It is 'rags and a rough cloak', the word "under" is not used.

 

So? Presumably they arn't over the rough cloak. That'd be a bit wierd.

 

Incidently, the cloak he gets from the tinker is 'ragged on the bottom'. Considering how vague some dreams can be, that makes it close to a perfect match.

 

Yes, I agreed the cloak sounded right--it was in fact part of why I was confused. To repeat "I mean its a fair point you make about symbolism--though more for the bandage than the rags--but it still seems off. Why get the physical reality of the cloak right, but then swirl in some metaphor in the bandage and the rags?"

 

 

 

I still think Rand may go blind. When using the word bandage, it implies a wound of some sort. If it was simply a metaphor for how blind he was in preparing himself for TG, then why not use the word kerchief?

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It is 'rags and a rough cloak', the word "under" is not used.

 

So? Presumably they arn't over the rough cloak. That'd be a bit wierd.

 

Incidently, the cloak he gets from the tinker is 'ragged on the bottom'. Considering how vague some dreams can be, that makes it close to a perfect match.

 

Yes, I agreed the cloak sounded right--it was in fact part of why I was confused. To repeat "I mean its a fair point you make about symbolism--though more for the bandage than the rags--but it still seems off. Why get the physical reality of the cloak right, but then swirl in some metaphor in the bandage and the rags?"

 

 

 

I still think Rand may go blind. When using the word bandage, it implies a wound of some sort. If it was simply a metaphor for how blind he was in preparing himself for TG, then why not use the word kerchief?

Kerchief and a bandage would look virtually the same so it doesnt matter. I think bandage was used because people dont often wear a kerchief over their eyes.

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I've had some thoughts in regard to the whole beggar thing, but haven't made much of a decision. Part of me thinks it has not been fulfilled, as like Sentinel I have always thought the fisher from Moridin's chess game was Rand.

 

Then a part of me thinks of it as being fulfilled in the last 3 books, as a beggar could be considered someone who does not add anything good to the world or society, instead relying on other people's generosity to survive. That was of course a huge generalization, one I do not stand by in reality, as some people have mental illnesses or other things which prevent them from really contributing, but for the sake of argument bear with me. I think Rand was, in a way, doing this, because in hardening himself he was not, in reality, working toward the greater good. He attempted to feed Arad Doman, but only succeeded in bringing them rotted food. He killed Semi, and possibly Graendal, but if he did so he did it by also murdering hundreds of innocents. People need him, they need to see him as the symbol of hope for the world, and he hid and grew more and more withdrawn from the reality of his existence.

 

He did travel Ebou Dar in a raggedy cloak and with a staff, so it could be that this was all it meant. By the way, it is stated twice that though his eyesight is like seeing through water, or hazy, it is slowly getting better, so I do not think the blindness will be caused by Semi's bolt of fire. I think he was really fumbling blindly for a long time, in his attempt to make himself strong enough to do what needed to be done, so this could be the figurative blindness. We must remember, both the wolf dream and Eggy's premonitions are often symbolic, rather than literal, as shown by the lamp and the ravens. I would agree that his eyes were opened in Veins of Gold, as it spelled it out for us, so possibly this has been fulfilled.

 

I always thought that it would be different, the world thinking Rand dead and him wandering, blind and poor, until he finally realized what he must do, but at this point I don't think there is enough time left in the story for this to happen.

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First off, we know that Rand is going to die ("To Live, you must die", references to Logain stepping over his grave, Min's viewing in Eye of World "three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it", etc.)

 

IMHO, many people are interpreting this 'death' as an actual, physical death, and I don't believe that's the way it will happen.  The prophetic statement regarding Logain was not him stepping over Rand's grave, it was him stepping over Rand's body, but the body appeared hollow and crumbled away (a faked death perhaps?).  I truly believe that Rand (with Alivia's help) will somehow fake his death...and that his faked death will be integral to Logain's 'Glory to come' as viewed by Min.

 

But that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.   ;) 

Perhaps Logain kills the person pretending to be Rand. Before Faile killed the profit he thought about how the "Dragon" came to him and told him Perrin is a darkfriend I think perhaps one of the forsaken is the person who spoke to him.

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Could he, perhaps, "bind" the Nine Moons by putting Tuon/Fortuona in an a'dam? We know that she can channel, and the damane are the sticking point between the Seachan and the people of Randland. Perhaps if she experiences what it is like to be on a leash, she will be more lenient/tolerant of marath'damane.

 

I don't think she has been working as a Sul'dam enough to be able to be leashed.  If she has then she might be in trouble the next time they decide to test her.  IIRC the Seanchan test women until their 25th birthday and she is not that old yet.  It may be as Empress that she won't have to be tested again.

 

I'm not sure how the Seanchan leashing channelers can be resolved it seems too ingrained in their culture to be resolved anytime soon.  Tuon has already accepted that Sul'dam can channel if they choose to and believes it is the choice that is important. 

 

From KoD

"I am nothing like these women, Toy.  Nothing like them.  Perhaps I could learn, but I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder.  That makes all the difference."

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Sul'dam must be excluded from a'dam testing or else the Seanchan would have discovered a long time ago that Sul'dam can channel.  Tuon had Sul'dam training so she most likely gets the same exclusion, not to mention that she is aware of this predicament, is the Empress now and won't be caught dead with an a'dam on if she can help it.  This is actually pretty hypocritical of her, since even though she hasn't confirmed she could wear an a'dam she pretty much knows it.

 

I really don't think For(tuon)a has to worry about an a'dam unless Mat attaches one to her neck when giving her a welcome-back kiss to show that maybe slavery is a bad thing.

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RJ said that Sul'dam have to work with an a'dam for a long time to get to the point where they can be leashed with it.  So by the time they can be leashed with it they are beyond the age that they test them for it.

 

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough. He said the circle helped them get to the point that's described in the book, as being on the brink of being able to channel, one foot stepped over or something

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I agree adverge - mainly because we got a few pages of hot ninja/kamikaze/ter'angreal/badass pumpup from Tuon and the only guy we see is some jokster that Bryne kills with one stroke.

 

Where are the other guys? There were no other mentioning of them, or any chaos they made, in the book, or even in the epilogue  - and I assume they're all dead by epilogue time since the ter'angreal had a deadline (sorry for the pun). 

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Agreed. No further mention of the other four Bloodknives, and within the same setting there is no readership account of how one of the major antagonists is "disposed of" I would have liked more detail on the capture of Elaida. If she ever comes back though I will be highly disappointed.

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Agreed. No further mention of the other four Bloodknives, and within the same setting there is no readership account of how one of the major antagonists is "disposed of" I would have liked more detail on the capture of Elaida. If she ever comes back though I will be highly disappointed.

I thoguht they said how elaida was captured in enough detail. They said that the wall was blown in and the seanchan walked in and gave her a necklace

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Agreed. No further mention of the other four Bloodknives, and within the same setting there is no readership account of how one of the major antagonists is "disposed of" I would have liked more detail on the capture of Elaida. If she ever comes back though I will be highly disappointed.

 

I doubt we've seen the last of the bloodknives. They can live for a few days, I thought, so maybe they're biding their time still. Would be a good way to start the little White Tower action we may see in ToM

 

I don't think that prophecy has been fulfilled. It makes sense (to me at least) that the Seanchan "helping" her would be literal, as she hates the Seanchan. She needs an "enlightening" moment, something where she learns that they aren't pure evil, much like Rand had when he realized how much better at ruling the Seanchan were than he. The Seanchan in general could use a clue as well. Maybe it's more symbolic of them learning to help each other and work together than literally being saved.

 

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