Which Prophecies Were Fufilled In This Book? (spoilers, natch)

[Whitering]

Maybe we need a thread about which of the theories in the FAQ have been answered definitively.

 

1) Verin, ya she's black, but, not really, and we can guess her 70 year project is full information on the Shadow.

 

2) The too young sitters.

 

There's probably more but it's been a few months since I read through the FAQ. I mean, you can just update the FAQ yourself I suppose, but it would be nice to have some help I would think, heh.

[Majsju]

Has it? Rand didn't cover his eyes with a bandage, and under the cloak the Tinkers gave him he was wearing fine clothes.

 

The beggars staff has been fulfilled, I'd agree, but probably not Perrin's dream.

 

The bandage seems like a quite obvious symbolic thing, as Rand is in a sense blind at this time, which he even admits to himself.

And what he was wearing underneath the cloak is quite irrelevant, Rand gave the impression of being a beggar. And that impression is important, as if Rand had jumped into Ebou Dar as the Dragon Reborn, the outcome would most likely have been a very different one. His disguise played a central part in his change, as it allowed him to walk the streets of Ebou Dar, actually seeing the people there, seeing the people show concern when he was lying in his own vomit.

 

Or perhaps she saw him resisting hurting her at great cost to himself? Her reaction seemed... off... for just plain 'hurting her'

 

How else should she have reacted then? Chuckled and told him 'Oh yes you will, woolhead, but I am ok with that.'?

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Perrins dream of Rand wearing rags and a rough cloak, with bandage covering his eyes, along with Mins viewing of a beggars staff around Rand was fulfilled.

 

Has it? Rand didn't cover his eyes with a bandage, and under the cloak the Tinkers gave him he was wearing fine clothes.

 

The beggars staff has been fulfilled, I'd agree, but probably not Perrin's dream.

 

 

I think it has been fulfilled.  Remember this is a dream.  Rand has been blind to how he needs to be preparing himself for TG since the beginning of the series.  How is a dream going to clearly convey that kind of blindness?

[Luckers]

The bandage seems like a quite obvious symbolic thing, as Rand is in a sense blind at this time, which he even admits to himself. And what he was wearing underneath the cloak is quite irrelevant, Rand gave the impression of being a beggar. And that impression is important, as if Rand had jumped into Ebou Dar as the Dragon Reborn, the outcome would most likely have been a very different one. His disguise played a central part in his change, as it allowed him to walk the streets of Ebou Dar, actually seeing the people there, seeing the people show concern when he was lying in his own vomit.

 

Perrin's dream directly cited that he was 'wearing rags' under the rough coat. I mean its a fair point you make about symbolism--though more for the bandage than the rags--but it still seems off. Why get the physical reality of the cloak, and swirl in some metaphor in the bandage and the rags?

 

I guess I'll put this in the 'if nothing else happens to fulfil this prophecy, here's the fallback explanation' category.

 

Quote

Or perhaps she saw him resisting hurting her at great cost to himself? Her reaction seemed... off... for just plain 'hurting her'

 

How else should she have reacted then? Chuckled and told him 'Oh yes you will, woolhead, but I am ok with that.'?

 

Now, now, I really don't think what Min gets up to on her own time is any of our business.

 

I'm just saying, her reaction implied she saw something more--she seems more thoughtful than wary or sad which'd be what I'd have thought her reaction to see that he'd hurt her. Like there was something more there, some other implication that change or cast shadows on the viewing.

 

Maybe we need a thread about which of the theories in the FAQ have been answered definitively.

 

1) Verin, ya she's black, but, not really, and we can guess her 70 year project is full information on the Shadow.

 

2) The too young sitters.

 

There's probably more but it's been a few months since I read through the FAQ. I mean, you can just update the FAQ yourself I suppose, but it would be nice to have some help I would think, heh.

 

There's a thread for requesting new threads, but I was thinking of doing something like this anyway.

[Majsju]

Perrin's dream directly cited that he was 'wearing rags' under the rough coat. I mean its a fair point you make about symbolism--though more for the bandage than the rags--but it still seems off. Why get the physical reality of the cloak, and swirl in some metaphor in the bandage and the rags?

 

I guess I'll put this in the 'if nothing else happens to fulfil this prophecy, here's the fallback explanation' category.

 

It is 'rags and a rough cloak', the word "under" is not used.

Incidently, the cloak he gets from the tinker is 'ragged on the bottom'. Considering how vague some dreams can be, that makes it close to a perfect match.

 

Now, now, I really don't think what Min gets up to on her own time is any of our business.

 

I'm just saying, her reaction implied she saw something more--she seems more thoughtful than wary or sad which'd be what I'd have thought her reaction to see that he'd hurt her. Like there was something more there, some other implication that change or cast shadows on the viewing.

 

Possibly, if we had seen her have the viewing at that very moment. However, for all we know she could have had it quite some time ago, which would have given her time to accept what she can not change. What she can not even tell Rand about, as that would only cause him to send her away in an atempt to change what can not be changed.

 

 

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I think the Gawyn saving Egwene prophecy was fulfilled; she was by herself and defenseless, and might easily have been slain by a Bloodknife if she hadn't been rescued right then.

 

I agree, but which option was fulfilled?  If I remember correctly the two options Min saw were of Gawyn bowing before Egwene and Gawyn breaking her.  Personally I think option #2 is the one that was fulfilled.  In rescuing her against her wishes he nearly broke her authority in the White Tower.  Had he respected her wishes not to be rescued ie obeyed her then the bowing before her option would have been fulfilled.

 

The strangest part is that I almost ended up liking Gawyn in the this book, but in the end he fell right back down to least favorite character status.

[Luckers]

It is 'rags and a rough cloak', the word "under" is not used.

 

So? Presumably they arn't over the rough cloak. That'd be a bit wierd.

 

Incidently, the cloak he gets from the tinker is 'ragged on the bottom'. Considering how vague some dreams can be, that makes it close to a perfect match.

 

Yes, I agreed the cloak sounded right--it was in fact part of why I was confused. To repeat "I mean its a fair point you make about symbolism--though more for the bandage than the rags--but it still seems off. Why get the physical reality of the cloak right, but then swirl in some metaphor in the bandage and the rags?"

 

 

[Theris]

I think the Gawyn saving Egwene prophecy was fulfilled; she was by herself and defenseless, and might easily have been slain by a Bloodknife if she hadn't been rescued right then.

 

I agree, but which option was fulfilled?  If I remember correctly the two options Min saw were of Gawyn bowing before Egwene and Gawyn breaking her.   Personally I think option #2 is the one that was fulfilled.  In rescuing her against her wishes he nearly broke her authority in the White Tower.   Had he respected her wishes not to be rescued ie obeyed her then the bowing before her option would have been fulfilled.

 

The strangest part is that I almost ended up liking Gawyn in the this book, but in the end he fell right back down to least favorite character status.

 

Min's visions aren't about what "nearly" happened - if Gawyn had broken her, Egwene'd be broken. Not "nearly" broken. #1 seems the one that happened, especially since Gawyn is beginning to accept her as Amyrlin, and thus "bow" to her authority (which I think will happen in a physical sense when he retakes command of the Younglings), whereas if Gawyn had not taken her, she would likely have been killed by a Bloodknife.

[Theris]

It is 'rags and a rough cloak', the word "under" is not used.

 

So? Presumably they arn't over the rough cloak. That'd be a bit wierd.

 

Incidently, the cloak he gets from the tinker is 'ragged on the bottom'. Considering how vague some dreams can be, that makes it close to a perfect match.

 

Yes, I agreed the cloak sounded right--it was in fact part of why I was confused. To repeat "I mean its a fair point you make about symbolism--though more for the bandage than the rags--but it still seems off. Why get the physical reality of the cloak right, but then swirl in some metaphor in the bandage and the rags?"

 

 

 

Because the Wolf Dream, and the wolves' communication method itself, seem entirely based on symbolism. Not photogenic realism. If Rand had appeared with fine clothes under a ragged cloak and no bandage but a scowl on his face, it would have been correct, but would have carried no weight with the wolves - they are based on symbolism. A word is really a smell or a memory or a feeling, not a word. So him being blind to the truth would have been a bandage. Him disguising himself as a beggar would have been dressed as a beggar.

[Majsju]

 

Yes, I agreed the cloak sounded right--it was in fact part of why I was confused. To repeat "I mean its a fair point you make about symbolism--though more for the bandage than the rags--but it still seems off. Why get the physical reality of the cloak right, but then swirl in some metaphor in the bandage and the rags?"

 

 

 

Well, how would you show that kind of blindness without using symbolism?

The cloak is a different matter. It is one of the easiest items to use if you want to show the "beggar persona" Rand had to get into. At the same time, the easiest way for Rand to disguise himself, together with the staff to hide his height.

A logical coincidence.

[Whitering]

Doesn't Rand continually saying he feels like his vision is such that he is looking through gauze sufficient for this? He mentions his vision problems several times. These are probably mitigated when he is holding Saidin though.

[WWWwombat]

Seizing saidin causes or aggravates the vision problems iirc in spite of the mitigating effect of vision enhancement by saidin.

[deepak_dragonreborn]

Some Seanchen saving Egwene hasnt yet been fulfilled.I figured it would happen when the Seanchen attacked the WT but i guess it still has to occur.Does that mean there is another confrontation between Aes Sedai and Seanchen?

[rogue588]

this may have been said already i think i know what one  prophecys means when min was talking

about the shining sword and the three powers  becoming one .i think its talking about the "one power' and rand using the three to close the hole on dark one prison ...that do you guys think.....

 

[drgnrbrn316]

Regarding the whole debate about Perrin's dream and Rand's rags, it could just be a matter of two separate authors' takes on the same scene. Maybe RJ intended full on rags and BS just put a cloak on him. We have to consider that BS isn't going to lay each scene out in the remaining chapters exactly how RJ would, so there may be some slight discrepancies. If that's the worst we can expect from two authors/two styles, then I'd consider ourselves lucky.

 

I'd call Perrin's dream regarding Rand fulfilled, myself.

[coteaz]

Don't forget that RJ worked in metaphors, just like the bandage over rand's 'eyes', Perhaps the rags were a metaphor for his tattered sanity, or soul maybe?

[perrin51]

Has anyone else noticed the new "Prophesy" that Fortuona thinks of in her POV. I think it was when she met Rand or later at the ceremony. It mentions the Dragon bowing to the crystal throne. All former mention of this event came from references to the Seanchan "K" Cycle. My initial thought was that this was just a corruption of the "K" cycle for a new emperor. Conquering warlords like to rewrite history and prophesy to suit their needs and vindicates their rule. After tGS my feelings have changed. Maybe the way Rand binds the Nine Moons to serve him is by bowing the Fortuna and her authority. It maybe like controling sai'dar. He must first submit to Fortuona to control her armies. Sorry about the lack of detail. I am at work and don't have my book.

[coteaz]

I agree that, that is a possibility, however i kinda disagree, i think he will bring mat in, and bind her that way, or he will bind her by convincing her in his now uninsane(is that a word? lol) persona.

[Tel Janin]

Regarding any Seanchan POV prophecies, if I'm not mistaken, we've read from a few Forsaken POVs that Ishamael twisted the Seanchan prophecies.  So, it would be prudent to assume that the Seanchan versions of the K cycle are tainted and not likely to be accurate.

 

I mention this because a few posters have discussed Seanchan prophecies in this thread, and we should all keep in mind that those 'prophecies' are likely false.

 

Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.  ;)

[coteaz]

It may be your opinion, but i agree with you.

[Ogrelin]

Regarding any Seanchan POV prophecies, if I'm not mistaken, we've read from a few Forsaken POVs that Ishamael twisted the Seanchan prophecies.  So, it would be prudent to assume that the Seanchan versions of the K cycle are tainted and not likely to be accurate.

 

I mention this because a few posters have discussed Seanchan prophecies in this thread, and we should all keep in mind that those 'prophecies' are likely false.

 

Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.   ;)

 

I wonder where the Seanchan got the "wolfking" prophecies from, how could a forsaken know that?

[Luckers]

Thats a part of the Karaetheon Cycle. Verin mentions it too.

[Shard]

Regarding any Seanchan POV prophecies, if I'm not mistaken, we've read from a few Forsaken POVs that Ishamael twisted the Seanchan prophecies.  So, it would be prudent to assume that the Seanchan versions of the K cycle are tainted and not likely to be accurate.

 

I mention this because a few posters have discussed Seanchan prophecies in this thread, and we should all keep in mind that those 'prophecies' are likely false.

 

Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.   ;)

 

I wonder where the Seanchan got the "wolfking" prophecies from, how could a forsaken know that?

 

Maybe a Forsaken wrote it? *cough* Ishmael *cough*

[DemandredFO]

Ishamael probably only messed with the parts that reference Rand, for all we know the weeping on Dragonmount could have been twisted too.  We know that the Seanchan live their lives by omens so she could him about prophecy when they meet again.

[PsycoRift]

There could be the fact that Rand fulfills even a changed prophecy by kneeling to the Crystal Throne expressing his sorrow for trying to force them to peace. It could also mean that he kneels in pain during some sort of suffering or other forced measure. It does not say he must swear allegiance or submit himself to it, just that he must kneel to the Crystal Throne before TG arrives.

 

"The Dragon Reborn must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost."

 

Maybe he drops something and kneels to pick it up even. Or maybe he notices a scuff on his boots and kneels down to kinda fix it because he is bored listening to "Fortuona" rant on about how the Seanchan should be allowed to slap an a'dam on every channeler male or female.