Mat's Plotline (Spoilers for the whole book)

[lillcheese]

First of all, the bubbles are *usually* attracted to ta'veren.

No. They were attracted to the ta'veren to begin with, but they are appearing all over now.

 

I had a thought that it might be attracted to where a ta'veren is headed, not just where he is. 

 

I was going to say that hte Village in Shiota chapter would be an example of this, but now I can't remember exactly how that scene played out.  The village certainly didn't appear as they were riding through it, they would have noticed the sudden buildings.  I think that they even realized something was wrong and stopped before entering the village.  It was a trader going through the village when Mat realized why it was wonky.  The trader sinks with the village and dies.

 

My point is that this bubble hit a location Mat was about to enter.  Since he was following a particular road in both instances, the pattern of his travel was more set than the other two ta'veren.  The sizes of the bubbles are increasing i think, which would explain why it could extend months prior to Mats arrival.

 

I'm wondering if this bubble will stop now that Mat has left.

[Mr Ares]

I had a thought that it might be attracted to where a ta'veren is headed, not just where he is.

Wee see Bubbles, and hear of others, that have nothing to do with ta'veren.

 

The trader sinks with the village and dies.

You hope he dies. "He wished he could believe the peddler was dead"

[Casco]

Did anyone else think that Mat's character was off?  I found him to be too responsible, too loquacious, too much tongue-in-cheek humor, and not as whiney as in past books.  Or is he just growing up?

Dont reay know what it is, but i cant get the "mat-feeling" in this book. In KOD the char was perfect...perfect! its not the same in TGS....he is changed. A little more childish....but still fun. I cant explain why i dont like him realy in TGS, but did love him in KOD.

[lillcheese]

I had a thought that it might be attracted to where a ta'veren is headed, not just where he is.

Wee see Bubbles, and hear of others, that have nothing to do with ta'veren.

 

I didn't meant to say otherwise.  I just wanted to point out that the fact that the bubble started before Mat got there does not mean it was a coincidence.

[firstfishman]

Perhaps Verin's letter to Matt tells him how to defeat the gholam? Or at least who sent it after him...

[EnderWarrior]

Thats a possibility what that letter contains means alot more, now that we know Verins True story, probaly something Verin also needed revealing and she knows that Matt keeps his word, remmber when Verin gave matt the letter he saw a bunch more letters written and sealed by her, who where those letters intended for? did she hide them for matt to find or did she send them to who they needed sending to? Oh i defintily cant wait for the next book its gona be a long 12 months

[Vorkia]

I think that is why they use a different word from being severed and burned out.

They don't. Severed is the AoL term, as far as we know the only one.

 

Right, but weather it is called stilling or being severed it implies the same thing...being cut off from the Source.  The point I was trying to make is that there seems to be a reason there are always two different terms (no matter what age) for intentionally being cut off from the true source or when it was done by drawing too much power or from a mishap of some sort.  RJ was too methodical for it to be a coincidence, I don't think he would have made that distinction without there being a reason, such as there being a physical difference between the two.

 

I vaguely remember Nyn checking to see if Setelle could channel and her not finding anything, even two separated ends of the TS needing connecting.  Its been a while since I read that book (can't even remember which one it was in) so I may be remembering it wrong.  In any event I think there is a big difference between the two.

[EnderWarrior]

Nyn didn't "sense" the TS in her just like you wouldnt sense it in someone who was stilled Nyn never delved setalle so she wouldnt have been able to tell, I think if she did she would find it.

 

My hypothoses is that setalle is going to get injured some how and flinn is going to be there or Nyn and they will go to heal her and also sence the cut in the delving

 

 

Conrerning Burn out vs Stilling

I think its just a way of phrasing it as to how it happend someone is stilled for a reason, a burn out is accidental or not meant to happen.

[Beren]

I don't think that town is a "bubble of evil." I think it is actually a rip in the pattern and the pattern is trying to reset itself, but is unable to do so. I think this has to do with the new Chapter icon we see.

[Halt466]

I don't know what you are talking about. Just because a character evolves doesn't mean the new guy changed him. We will see later what Brandon added and I know people will be surprised. I loved Matt even more in this book than in previous books. He has evolved into someone he never thought he could be. He is now realizing how much his time with Tuon change the essence of himself. While he catches himself looking south, he's annoyed that he won't the same “free” man that he's gotten used to from the time he's been out of the two rivers. He's worried that Tuon will try to make him become the “good” prince. And he’s surprised at himself and how he is totally smitten for some girl.

 

On another note, who thinks Matt would make a better Dragon Reborn than Rand? I think that Matt would be a better candidate because he wouldn’t be trying to make himself hard… He’d first try to get out of it then find a way to survive the last battle. Maybe that will be the plot twist. The Dragon Reborn will miraculously be someone who can’t channel and hasn’t fulfilled the prophecies. Lol … Just kidding but it would be the funniest thing ever. ;D

 

I dont think Matt will need the Horn any longer... We see that some of the heroes of legend have been reborn, and are going to be fighting at the last battle. How can you call someones soul/essence from their new body in order to fight for you? Will it leave Olver, etc as empty shells when it is sounded? If not, how can you split someones soul/essence into two forms at once? I think that all the heroes will be revealed as reborn, and the horn will be useless... Maybe it called them to be reborn.... Not as immortal ghosts to do the horn sounder's bidding... If they were recalled as an immortal army, why bother with a living army... Who can defeat ghosts?

 

This make absolutely no sense based on what has already happened and what we have learned through RJ answers. First off, in TGH, we see the heroes come out and fight for Rand. If your explanation was correct, then Rand would have become an empty shell, as well as any of the other characters that may be heroes (we don't know if they are and at this point do not have any indication, save birgette). Second, if they are reborn, how will they fight. They will be what, between one and two years old? Are we gonna have an infant Hawkwing come and lead the armies as Mat's co-general?

 

Here is what happens. The heroes that are in TAR will manifest when the horn in sounded. The ones reborn will not and will stay in their reborn body with no knowledge of who they were, as a normal human would. As for the fighting, we don't know exactly how it works, but in TGH we see that their fight is tied to how Rand did. Thus, they prolly can kill, though it seems they cannot be killed (but can be prevented from advancing). This is what we know so far.

 

 

On this point i think your Right the horn still has a part to play. what that is is yet to be seen. however firstfishman makes an iteresting point on maybe the horn started the heroes being reborn again. however i think there are still people in TER that will answer the horns call.

[Vorkia]

Nyn didn't "sense" the TS in her just like you wouldnt sense it in someone who was stilled Nyn never delved setalle so she wouldnt have been able to tell, I think if she did she would find it.

 

My hypothoses is that setalle is going to get injured some how and flinn is going to be there or Nyn and they will go to heal her and also sence the cut in the delving

 

 

Conrerning Burn out vs Stilling

I think its just a way of phrasing it as to how it happend someone is stilled for a reason, a burn out is accidental or not meant to happen.

 

Well hopefully we will find out before the series ends, but in the meantime maybe we should get back on point of the topic of this thread, we sorta got off track a bit.

 

*tsk* chapter icon?  Darn, I really need to pay more attention to those things....

[Tel Janin]

For all the people who are complaining about Mat's character not feeling the same, or right, or wonky, or whatever descriptive term you feel like using...

 

The character IS different; by that I mean he's SUPPOSED to appear different.  I can't think of any character in the series that didn't act different after they were married.  Nynaeve, Melanie, etc...  He's changed.  He realizes, at least subconsciously, that he loves and misses Tuon, and his rebellious nature is fighting it hard...

 

Another thing to consider...the Last Battle is coming and being ta'veren sometimes works against you...the Pattern will force a change if it becomes necessary.

 

Just my two coppers.  I could be wrong...  ;)

[coteaz]

i actually agree with you.

[Mr Ares]

I think that is why they use a different word from being severed and burned out.

They don't. Severed is the AoL term, as far as we know the only one.

Right, but weather it is called stilling or being severed it implies the same thing...being cut off from the Source.

Burning out implies the same thing as well.

The point I was trying to make is that there seems to be a reason there are always two different terms (no matter what age) for intentionally being cut off from the true source or when it was done by drawing too much power or from a mishap of some sort.

They don't. As I said, the only AoL term we know is severing, we have no reason to believe that they had a second. The only term they had was severing.

 

I vaguely remember Nyn checking to see if Setelle could channel and her not finding anything, even two separated ends of the TS needing connecting.

That never happened.

Its been a while since I read that book (can't even remember which one it was in)

It would either be LoC or ACoS, as those are the books Nynaeve is in Ebou Dar. Now, I understand that you think there's a big, important difference. A lot of people think that. There's still precious little by way of evidence to support it.

[tneva82]

On this point i think your Right the horn still has a part to play. what that is is yet to be seen. however firstfishman makes an iteresting point on maybe the horn started the heroes being reborn again. however i think there are still people in TER that will answer the horns call.

 

Well. We have 2 heroes reborn(Birgitte and Rand) and MAYBE 1(Caidal. Who is NOT Olver!). Not much of a flood of reborn heroes ;-)

 

And would be pretty bizarre for them to start reborning now. What use all those infant heroes would be?

[AuldGoldBeard]

Mat's character was extremely poorly written.  A major break with his previous character, and not in a way that would be explained by marriage.  Talmanes, however, was the worst-written of all the characters in the book.  Sanderson might as well have had him fall off a horse and break his neck if he wanted to change him that much.

 

Hopefully, the heavy overlay of comic relief was a function of Mat not having anything important to do in this book, and will subside in ToM when he has a more important role to play.

[Vorkia]

I think that is why they use a different word from being severed and burned out.

They don't. Severed is the AoL term, as far as we know the only one.

Right, but weather it is called stilling or being severed it implies the same thing...being cut off from the Source.

Burning out implies the same thing as well.

 

I knew I read it somewhere!  According to the companion book The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time for those who don’t know.  On page 22 top of the page

 

In any case, the result of being stilled or burned out are much the same.  The stilled woman, like a man who has been gentled, is cut off from the True Source, always tantalized by the sense of sadir, yet unable to touch or channel it.  The woman who is burned out can neither channel nor sense the Power.

 

So I maintain (and RJ concurs according to this passage) that there is an intrinsic difference between stilling and being burned out.  Stilling can be Healed since there is something to heal—they can still sense the Source but not touch it, but being burned out cannot since they can not even feel the TS.

 

*looks over post and nods satisfactorily*  Yup, I think that covers everything.

[EnderWarrior]

I happen to disagree on the fact that form siunes point of view after being STILLED she states she cant sense the one power either we are missing something or there is a contradiction in notes some where

[dysonius]

Mat's character was extremely poorly written.  A major break with his previous character, and not in a way that would be explained by marriage. 

 

Hopefully, the heavy overlay of comic relief was a function of Mat not having anything important to do in this book, and will subside in ToM when he has a more important role to play.

 

I agree that Mat's POV was the toughest to read in TGS. It was SO very different from before. It felt too exagerrated, too over-the-top. I hope it comes around in the next two books, because prior to this he was always my favorite character.

[Durinax]

I think that is why they use a different word from being severed and burned out.

They don't. Severed is the AoL term, as far as we know the only one.

Right, but weather it is called stilling or being severed it implies the same thing...being cut off from the Source.

Burning out implies the same thing as well.

 

I knew I read it somewhere!  According to the companion book The World of Robert Jordans The Wheel of Time for those who dont know.  On page 22 top of the page

 

In any case, the result of being stilled or burned out are much the same.  The stilled woman, like a man who has been gentled, is cut off from the True Source, always tantalized by the sense of sadir, yet unable to touch or channel it.  The woman who is burned out can neither channel nor sense the Power.

 

So I maintain (and RJ concurs according to this passage) that there is an intrinsic difference between stilling and being burned out.  Stilling can be Healed since there is something to healthey can still sense the Source but not touch it, but being burned out cannot since they can not even feel the TS.

 

*looks over post and nods satisfactorily*  Yup, I think that covers everything.

the difference is that being stilled is like a plank bridge that you take out the boards so you cant cross, but it is repairable. Being burned out is when you completely burn the bridge and it is impossible to repair.

 

 

I liked mat alot more this book, he is different which is great. He was basically the same forever, it was almost static, but now he is dynamic even though he is trying to resist the transition

[Halt466]

 

Well. We have 2 heroes reborn(Birgitte and Rand) and MAYBE 1(Caidal. Who is NOT Olver!). Not much of a flood of reborn heroes ;-)

 

And would be pretty bizarre for them to start reborning now. What use all those infant heroes would be?

 

You're right. I think their are probably other hero that were reborn but the larger portion of them are still in TER. Better them stay there then come out as infants...

[firstfishman]

How did a thread about Matt's plotline turn into a debate about wheather being burnt out is the same as being stilled?

[nianp]

On this point i think your Right the horn still has a part to play. what that is is yet to be seen. however firstfishman makes an iteresting point on maybe the horn started the heroes being reborn again. however i think there are still people in TER that will answer the horns call.

 

Well. We have 2 heroes reborn(Birgitte and Rand) and MAYBE 1(Caidal. Who is NOT Olver!). Not much of a flood of reborn heroes ;-)

 

And would be pretty bizarre for them to start reborning now. What use all those infant heroes would be?

 

I'm probably going to get shouted down for this comment (I really need to stop smoking before I come on this forum) but I was under the impression that LTT was never bound to the Horn. I mean, there are Heroes and then there's the Dragon Reborn. Though if LTT is bound to the Horn then that could be a way to let Rand die and then bring him back in the same way that Birgitte was reborn. Plus, that way Rand would eventually forget the terrible things he's done recently.

 

Having said that, I still don't think LTT was ever bound to the Horn.

[dflinn]

Mat's character was extremely poorly written.  A major break with his previous character, and not in a way that would be explained by marriage.  Talmanes, however, was the worst-written of all the characters in the book.  Sanderson might as well have had him fall off a horse and break his neck if he wanted to change him that much.

 

Hopefully, the heavy overlay of comic relief was a function of Mat not having anything important to do in this book, and will subside in ToM when he has a more important role to play.

 

I disagree that it was poorly written. It was written just fine if the character's PoV was John or Mike or anyone who isnt Matrim Cauthon. Mat was not off, he was wrong. And for those who say it was because of the marriage issue, what was the deal with Talmanes? That definitely was not Talmanes from the past 12 books. I loved the book, but yeah I couldnt take many chapters of the Mat and Talmanes comedy duo. Mat was BY FAR my favorite character. I read through the books only reading the chapters that are Mat PoV way too regularly I guess. Talmanes follows Mat out of complete and full respect. That is the one and only emotion the man seems to have. He doesn't smile, he doesnt crack jokes, he doesnt babble on and on like a gaggle of women. Even if Mat had changed, which is not true imo, there is no reason Talmanes turned into Lightfoot (abercrobmie first law trilogy).

[Second Chance]

When I was in school/university I probably read the whole series (up to WH) 3 or 4 times, but since WH and working life I've just read each book once on release, then read plot summaries before the next book.

 

The point of that is that I found myself enjoying the humour of Mat's sections, but I've become disconnected enough from the books that inconsistencies in character didn't bother me (I really don't remember Talmanes - though somehow I remember Nalesean and his grisly end).

 

What did bother me was that I felt like nothing happened, apart from meeting with Verin (a few pages in a prologue could have handled that, but I guess Verin's character needed a bit more in-book build up for her end). I enjoyed the chapters, but they felt like filler plot wise, when clearly we don't need filler.

 

Did I forget about the whole 'dice in his head' device being concluded? Otherwise, where did they go?