The Black Ajah (spoilers for the entire book)

[Eleint]

Lanfear was explicitly running around the Tower as Else.  She spoke to Mat in the Tower, doing her 'think about power' shtick and so on, then left.  Ran into at least one of the girls, don't remember how many.  They got all sniffy about her visiting Mat or such.  No mention of her being really really strong or unable to channel.

 

This is all tDR.

[lillcheese]

 

Lanfear completely masked her ability so when she did channel, it was a complete shock to Else, not that she was stronger than she appeared.  Messy is still up for debate and with male channelers its different, the only way to tell how strong they are if for them to hold all that they can to be judged by other men.  When they were testing Dashiva's strength, he could have easily been holding back.  In fact I vaguely recall Rand mention that Dashiva didn't seem to be straining at all so he didn't know if he was holding all he could or not.

 

Lanfear disguised herself as Else, and appeared to Egwene before she took off after the black ajah.  Egwene was certainly far enough along to sense Else-fear's potential.  Lanfear partly masked her ability to channel...

 

I don't recall that, if you could give me the book that was in and hopefully a chapter or page number, I'd like to check it out again.  I'm surprised its something I'd miss on my many reads of the series.

 

I'm pretty sure Lanfear wasn't Else, but she did kill Else while she was working on the farm for pennance.  Or was that one of the BA sisters that killed her?

 

If the real Else ever went to the WT, she was put out of it several days or even weeks before she gave Egwene & Nynaeve  the "message" to go to the storeroom.  IIRC, also before she visited Mat as Selene.

 

Of course, with Sheriam as MoN, I think it's more likely the real Else never went to the tower.  

[Fainsbane]

No one living besides the forsaken would remember her face anyway. So she could probably alter records and turn up and say im an Aes Sedai who was retired up until now. use the OP to put on the ageless look, and then infiltrate the Aes Sedai.

 

Or the odd Aiel Wise One or Clan Chief who just happened to have been descended of someone who served her. Wouldn't that be a kicker if Avi recognized her after returning from her trials.  :P

[ed2funy]

No they removed all the oaths, Romanda was just unwilling to show weakness.

 

i'm pretty sure that the "hunters" said that they had a lot....and i mean a lot of pain when releasing the oaths...

 

if it took them a while holding on to each other to compose themselves....

 

so...i don't think Romanda and the rest of the lot could hold it in even if they wanted to...

[jemron]

You might be right, its been awhile since I've read those scenes... But I thought that it was the Black sisters who felt that pain.  Something to do with the oaths that they make being more painful to undue.  I don't think it was as painful for the regular sisters as it is for Black Sisters... But I could be wrong...

 

[wasted]

you know what i really - really - can't understand?

Eg. is smart. Very smart.

 

Why dosent she simply take the oath's, then swear that she will never under any circumstances [to leave no wriggle room] say the words that would unbind her from them and then also swear that she will never under any circumstances serve the shadow [or if you think that "to serve the shadow" leaves to much wriggle room (i can't see how though) insert any words that you would find nessacary].

 

Be the first, then have everyone else swear it. By the first oath, it is as binding as if sworn on the oathrod.

 

So why doenst she?

She can't think, that her plans for Aes Sadai retirement are or would be more important than finishing off the Black Ajah once and for all.

 

Well after the remaining Black's have been delt with.

 

I just don't get it.

I don't.

 

Help anyone?

 

edit : typos and 2. question

 

We know that swearing on the oathrod shortens one's life. Do we know whether swearing one oath or one hundred makes a diffrence in how old you can grow?

 

Because if that were the case, I'd simply swear to never lie on the oath rod, and swear the rest without it, but by the first oath, they're still binding.

[Mr Ares]

Lanfear completely masked her ability so when she did channel, it was a complete shock to Else, not that she was stronger than she appeared.

Lanfear pretended to be Else Grinwell. She partially masked her strength so that people would not be shocked at a Novice who was suddenly the strongest Channeler ever, or completely unable to Channel. TDR 25.

 

When she posed as Kelly (who was a merchant not a tinker)

Peddler. The Aiel allow peddlers across the Waste, not merchants or Tinkers, so she was a peddler.

 

I'm pretty sure Lanfear wasn't Else, but she did kill Else while she was working on the farm for pennance. Or was that one of the BA sisters that killed her?

Else was sent home, not killed. Lanfear masqueraded as Else to give a message to the girls, and when they told Siuan about it she informed them that Else had been sent away from the Tower. You're thinking of someone completely different.

 

Why dosent she simply take the oath's, then swear that she will never under any circumstances [to leave no wriggle room] say the words that would unbind her from them and then also swear that she will never under any circumstances serve the shadow [or if you think that "to serve the shadow" leaves to much wriggle room (i can't see how though) insert any words that you would find nessacary].

I don't know, why would a girl who is convinced that the Three Oaths are what it means to be AS completely change them on a whim?

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

When she posed as Kelly (who was a merchant not a tinker)

Peddler. The Aiel allow peddlers across the Waste, not merchants or Tinkers, so she was a peddler.

 

Wrong.  They don't allow merchants, but they ignore Tinkers, so Tinkers can move in the Waste (if they want to).

[Eleint]

Wrong.  They don't allow merchants, but they ignore Tinkers, so Tinkers can move in the Waste (if they want to).

 

Actually, no, they're right.  I just looked it up in tSR.  The group were peddlers, and it's explicit that the two people Aiel allow in the waste are peddlers and Tinkers.  The peddlers had an issue because they nearly came to Rhuidean, which was a no-no.  Peddlers are totally kosher in the waste.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Wrong.  They don't allow merchants, but they ignore Tinkers, so Tinkers can move in the Waste (if they want to).

 

Actually, no, they're right.  I just looked it up in tSR.  The group were peddlers, and it's explicit that the two people Aiel allow in the waste are peddlers and Tinkers.  The peddlers had an issue because they nearly came to Rhuidean, which was a no-no.  Peddlers are totally kosher in the waste.

 

Yah, but they don't allow merchants.  Merchants and peddlers are different.

[Eleint]

Yah, but they don't allow merchants.  Merchants and peddlers are different.

 

Er...huh?

 

A peddler is someone who sells something.  A merchant is someone who sells something.  The only difference is a peddler tends to move around selling their wares.  It's just a fine semantic variation.  A peddler is a merchant.  A merchant isn't necessarily a peddler.  But in general they're equivalent.

[Jemlin]

Would be wicked if Sorilea turned out to be black >_<

 

Anywho, I think the Black Ajah clensing was a very unexpected plot twist.  I never anticipated that they would be able to fully root out the black Ajah, as the stuffy Aes SEdai rules and protocols seemed to hide them wonderfully..and the Black Ajah hunters were too painstakingly slow.  If they had been able to question every sister, they might have succeeded, but it would take months and they would have been assassinated by then.  The "Clensing" through Verin's book info was a great "out of left field" twist.

 

I think it will also spurn on the last battle, as I highly doubt the Black Ajah that fleed from the Tower will go about trying to pretend to be Aes Sedai and manipulate folks.  Communication should spread quick enough.  They will most likely be gathered up and head to join with the Dark One's armies as the Dread Lords.  There are still over a hundred of them confirmed.

 

I still think a Eguwene vs Mesaana would be good.  Why? Because I don't think she would over come Mesaana with the Power (using an angreal of course). I think it would be something similar to when Nyn bested Mogh with her wit.  Egwene would prove to be smarter than Mesaana who has obviously underestimated her (and the Seanchan).  Or maybe Eguwene will catch her in the Dreamworld, where they would be Equals

[fikkie77]

I think Sorilea is in fact a Darkfriend. She was the only one (beside Cadsuane, who is for certainly not a darkfriend) who knew where the sad bracelets were.

[Declan]

Would be wicked if Sorilea turned out to be black >_<

 

 

 

I think it will also spurn on the last battle, as I highly doubt the Black Ajah that fleed from the Tower will go about trying to pretend to be Aes Sedai and manipulate folks.  Communication should spread quick enough.  They will most likely be gathered up and head to join with the Dark One's armies as the Dread Lords.  There are still over a hundred of them confirmed.

 

 

I wouldn't be so sure about the BA sister who escaped wouldn't still act like Aes Sedai. You seem to have forgotten that even though the Last Battle is approaching AS will still be as prickly as ever with information that there are dark friends who are sisters. There is no way Egwene is gonna change that protocol. She might issue a warrant out for them but will not specify why or that they are BA.

 

You forget that Aes Sedai are full of it.

 

But i do think they will start heading to the blight or to other forsaken to get more orders.

[John Galt]

After reading tGS, and rereading some of the previous books, I am completely convinced that two things are true about Cadsuane Sedai.

 

1. She is not bound by the 3 oaths

2. She is not Black Ajah

 

My theory is that she somehow got her hands on an Oath Rod and forsake the three oaths in order to more effectively hunt the Black Ajah.  I think she upholds the three oaths at all times possible, but is not magically bound to uphold them.

 

As for Verin, I'm sure she is responsible for some pretty terrible acts.  She said that it was impossible for her to disobey the DO unless she was within an hour from her death.  I seriously doubt Matt and Perrin were the first people she'd ever been ordered to kill after 70 years of loyal service.

 

Was she redeemed?  Absolutely.  Verin could very well have made the greatest single contribution to the fight against the DO on Tarmon Gaidon than anyone but Rand will have to contribute.  She completely unravelled the DO's plans, ensured that the White Tower was united under a strong leader, Black Ajah free, and we don't even know what else she'll have contributed by the end of this series.  She very well might be the only reason Rand's side has the Horn of Valour and an living Matt Cauthon to sound it on TG.  Even as a Darkfriend she very well might be the only reason Perrin is still living with all of the help her and Tomas brought in the Two Rivers battles.  Her contributions are astounding for a supposedly insignificant Brown Aes Sedai.  I think she redeemed her soul and then some. 

[csarmi]

Well, she must have some sort of oaths else she would not look ageless.

[Lambada]

She does.

Oaths to the Black Ajah, Oaths sworn on the Oath Rod.

[Dorkfiend]

Yah, but they don't allow merchants.  Merchants and peddlers are different.

 

Er...huh?

 

A peddler is someone who sells something.  A merchant is someone who sells something.  The only difference is a peddler tends to move around selling their wares.  It's just a fine semantic variation.  A peddler is a merchant.  A merchant isn't necessarily a peddler.  But in general they're equivalent.

 

Methinks it's a difference in degree.  Merchants could potentially travel through the waste to buy stuff from Shara.  Not useful to the Aiel at all, given that they have no concept of borders and therefore customs.  Peddlers travel through the waste to sell stuff to Aiel.  Very useful to the Aiel.

 

[deathgate]

Methinks it's a difference in degree.  Merchants could potentially travel through the waste to buy stuff from Shara.  Not useful to the Aiel at all, given that they have no concept of borders and therefore customs.  Peddlers travel through the waste to sell stuff to Aiel.  Very useful to the Aiel.

 

The Aiel did allow Cairhienin merchants as a reward for helping them in their past and they did buy and sell stuff from Shara. Stopped when Laman made the tree into a throne.

[Luckers]

After reading tGS, and rereading some of the previous books, I am completely convinced that two things are true about Cadsuane Sedai.

 

1. She is not bound by the 3 oaths

2. She is not Black Ajah

 

My theory is that she somehow got her hands on an Oath Rod and forsake the three oaths in order to more effectively hunt the Black Ajah.  I think she upholds the three oaths at all times possible, but is not magically bound to uphold them.

 

 

Well, we do see her do mental tricks around lies in POV (the "'I don't care a fig for the Coramoor', all the figs in the world for the Dragon, but not one for the Coramoor" or whatever).

 

Though, then again we also see Verin do that in the tPoD prologue (the "'it's the heat. I've felt like fainting several times myself' but from channeling, not the hear"). If one unbound person was doing it, so might another.

 

That being said I can support point two with some evidence. Cadsuane directly shows in her POV (the same as the figs, WH, Wonderful News) that she is not black.

[coteaz]

When she posed as Kelly (who was a merchant not a tinker)

Peddler. The Aiel allow peddlers across the Waste, not merchants or Tinkers, so she was a peddler.

 

The Aiel allow tinkers to cross the waste aswell.

[Eleint]

I don't think Cadsuane is unbound by the Rod for one reason.

 

It would cheapen Verin's accomplishments.  Having two people do so would be kind of gratuitous.  Basic writing rule, there. :)

[Mr Ares]

When she posed as Kelly (who was a merchant not a tinker)

Peddler. The Aiel allow peddlers across the Waste, not merchants or Tinkers, so she was a peddler.

The Aiel allow tinkers to cross the waste as well.

True, but Tinkers are ignored, while the Aiel are willing to talk to and trade with Peddlers and Gleemen.

[rcuhljr]

I don't have any solid proof, but I can't shake the feeling that Messy is Laras the head cook. She would receive almost no oversight in that role, and can easily meet/message anyone in the tower through food deliveries. She helped to sneak out Siuan and Leane expecting it to foster more trouble and division within the white tower.

 

My unsupported theory aside, Messy likely isn't one of the Ajah heads since she orders Alviaran to learn why the heads of the Ajahs are meeting in Path of Daggers.

[Seeba82]

So, with Verin coming clean about being BA.  Does this mean she's the one who killed Asmo?