White Tower Reunification Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[WWWwombat]

I don't think forkroot fading is trivial at all.  Assuming Egwene was drawing through the sa'angreal herself (which is almost certain considering she was holding it and in authority) and assuming sa'angreal and angreal work by scaling power capacity by some factor, which I think is very likely, then any amount of strength she gains as the forkroot fades is multiplied by the sa'angreal by a fearsome factor.  Depending on how small the dose was and how long the battle lasted, she could have gained quite a bit of strength from the forkroot leaving her system.

[Hallow]

Was I the only one who wanted to smack Egwene in the face every time she thought about how Incompetent Rand is?

 

I mean yes he was a wreck at that time but she had no way of knowing that.

[Astus]

Or how he needed "guidance".

They were the only issues I had with her in the book. Then that's a problem that is pretty much universal to Aes Sedai in general. Min hit the nail on the head when she spoke her mind about the issue.

 

I want to see Egwene and Rand actually talk. Have a heart to heart. It would help clear misunderstandings and would set the scene for much better future in terms of coordination and the like.

[Writo]

I don't think forkroot fading is trivial at all.  Assuming Egwene was drawing through the sa'angreal herself (which is almost certain considering she was holding it and in authority) and assuming sa'angreal and angreal work by scaling power capacity by some factor, which I think is very likely, then any amount of strength she gains as the forkroot fades is multiplied by the sa'angreal by a fearsome factor.  Depending on how small the dose was and how long the battle lasted, she could have gained quite a bit of strength from the forkroot leaving her system.

 

I'm going to go ahead and hop out of lurking here for one moment:

 

Do we know factually how sa'angreal etc. work?  I think the idea of scaling multiplicatively doesn't quite sit well with me.

 

Main reason/example?  Choden Kal.  Only Nynaeve was thought strong enough in the power to handle it.  If such things function multiplicatively, then anyone would be able to in theory, it'd just be quite a bit less effective.

 

I think based on the ways we've seen angreal and sa'angreal used throughout the books the conclusion would be a more additively based system.

 

As for the needing "guidance" and whatnot, well, I think Aes Sedai definitely take it too far.  But guidance isn't a bad thing either.  I think most all of the characters need to be a little bit less pridefully stubborn and overly self confident...  Others trying to help you, not a bad thing.  Just annoying from time to time.  Get over it.  Maybe learn to be thankful about it.

 

Tony

[WWWwombat]

I don't think forkroot fading is trivial at all.  Assuming Egwene was drawing through the sa'angreal herself (which is almost certain considering she was holding it and in authority) and assuming sa'angreal and angreal work by scaling power capacity by some factor, which I think is very likely, then any amount of strength she gains as the forkroot fades is multiplied by the sa'angreal by a fearsome factor.  Depending on how small the dose was and how long the battle lasted, she could have gained quite a bit of strength from the forkroot leaving her system.

 

I'm going to go ahead and hop out of lurking here for one moment:

 

Do we know factually how sa'angreal etc. work?  I think the idea of scaling multiplicatively doesn't quite sit well with me.

 

Main reason/example?  Choden Kal.  Only Nynaeve was thought strong enough in the power to handle it.  If such things function multiplicatively, then anyone would be able to in theory, it'd just be quite a bit less effective.

 

I think based on the ways we've seen angreal and sa'angreal used throughout the books the conclusion would be a more additively based system.

 

As for the needing "guidance" and whatnot, well, I think Aes Sedai definitely take it too far.  But guidance isn't a bad thing either.  I think most all of the characters need to be a little bit less pridefully stubborn and overly self confident...  Others trying to help you, not a bad thing.  Just annoying from time to time.  Get over it.  Maybe learn to be thankful about it.

 

Tony

 

I don't remember anyone saying Nynaeve was the only one who could handle it.  Rand mainly chose her because she was one of the only people he trusted to link with him.

[coteaz]

and because she was quite powerful herself.

[accendo]

Was I the only one who wanted to smack Egwene in the face every time she thought about how Incompetent Rand is?

 

I mean yes he was a wreck at that time but she had no way of knowing that.

 

Yes, my feelings are exactly the same on this issue. How about the horror they feel when men have performed the bonding. What is wrong with that? How come they object so much...?

[Anajon]

Egwene absolutely rocks in this book, the meeting with verin was absolute the best chapter in the book - but there are a few questions on the invation of the tower.

 

I think it  will not been the last time - what happened to the woman with the sword, Egwene on crumbling top etc.. she has secured her leadership will she stumble the next time the seachan come?

 

any ideas?

 

Anajon

[b3arz3rg3r]

I rather liked Egwene in this book, but at times it was a bit too much. This whole business of every Ajah wanting to scout her was just too cheesy.

 

I think this book was supposed to be more about rand's fractured persona, and his descent into deppression, but IMO egwene stole the show.  My fave scene of the book was egwene serving the elaida and the sitters, and giving elaida an absolute word pimp slap, from then on she just kept getting increasingly badass, culminating in her acting as a coduit for an insane amount of power, and turning the tide of the seanchan battle alone.

Egwene didn't steal the show. It was her show from the beginning. Two fifth of the book dealt with the whole WT business.

 

Egwene still gets on my nerves.

 

In her own way, she's being as wrong-headed as Rand has been.

 

It's not even "in her own way."  Just pure and simple, she does things that are wrong.  And what the hell was with her statement, after Silvian's "Men are not to be trusted." ???

 

Quoted (emphasis mine):

Someday, we will have to move beyond that last sentiment, Egwene thought.  But for now, it is true enough to let stand.

 

Uhh... What the hell?  "true enough to let stand?"  Is she a Red at heart?  I remember in book two, when Moraine was talking to Suian about Egwene and Nynaeve, she was talking specifically about how these two wouldn't choose Red, because though they are "flabbergasted" by men, they still love them.  What the hell changed so much that she can't stand men?

 

She's always been like that. All women except for Faile, Min and Aviendha have shown that attitude. Well, Nyneave seems to have outgrown that mold, but most other women still seem to believe in their infallibility in every conflict with men.

Her decision to appease the Red Ajah to bring them back into the fold was her sole mistake. The Red Ajah is a thing of the past. As long as they exist there won't be any proper cooperation with the male channellers. That Ajah needs to be disbanded. Even if they found a new purpose the colour red has far too many negative connotations for the men. Egwene's goal should be to extend the three oaths onto the men and that won't happen as long as there are still women wearing the red.

[fikkie77]

Egwene knew that an Amyrlin doesn't have the authority to disband an Ajah (which was one of Elaida´s crimes). So, she had to pull the Red Ajah back in. I think only the Red Ajah to disband themselves.

[Rufae]

Anyone wonder about the Fists of Heaven and where they are? Those are the 5 Seanchan warriors specially blessed by Tuon the black "invisible" armor to stay behind and harass/kill Aes Sedai regardless of the result of the attack? We saw only one get killed by Gareth. That leaves 4 still lurking around the Tower.

 

Does anyone think that one of them will make an attempt at Egwene next book? Will Egwene survive?

 

Wasn't there a prophesy early on that Gawayne would save Egwene's life? Perhaps he will save it from one of the Fists?

 

Finally, what about the Seanchan woman who is supposed to help Egwene? Who do yall think that will be?

 

 

 

[Darkholme]

Something I just noticed while listening to the book. I don't know if it has been mentioned before but during the first dinner scene with Elaida, Egwene is called a wilder. Is this a mistake or is there other reasoning for this?

[b3arz3rg3r]

Egwene knew that an Amyrlin doesn't have the authority to disband an Ajah (which was one of Elaida´s crimes). So, she had to pull the Red Ajah back in. I think only the Red Ajah to disband themselves.

 

Yes, she can't disband the Red Ajah, but she can set a policy which will make the Reds face reality.

 

Anyone wonder about the Fists of Heaven and where they are? Those are the 5 Seanchan warriors specially blessed by Tuon the black "invisible" armor to stay behind and harass/kill Aes Sedai regardless of the result of the attack? We saw only one get killed by Gareth. That leaves 4 still lurking around the Tower.

 

Does anyone think that one of them will make an attempt at Egwene next book? Will Egwene survive?

 

Wasn't there a prophesy early on that Gawayne would save Egwene's life? Perhaps he will save it from one of the Fists?

 

Finally, what about the Seanchan woman who is supposed to help Egwene? Who do yall think that will be?

 

 

Sadly Egwene has a plotshield which makes her unkillable.

[Getch]

The Red Ajah will most likely change to be ambassadors/warders/etc to the Asha'man.  I believe Egwene alludes to the Red Ajah having to change for the future, and the groundwork for that change is already in place.

[fikkie77]

Something I just noticed while listening to the book. I don't know if it has been mentioned before but during the first dinner scene with Elaida, Egwene is called a wilder. Is this a mistake or is there other reasoning for this?

Egwene arrived in the tower, already channeling. I guess that makes her a wilder in some Aes Sedai eyes. It is wrong of course, because her first time channeling was controlled by an Aes Sedai (Moiraine), but I believe only few Aes Sedai know that.

[b3arz3rg3r]

The Red Ajah will most likely change to be ambassadors/warders/etc to the Asha'man.  I believe Egwene alludes to the Red Ajah having to change for the future, and the groundwork for that change is already in place.

 

I know that one of those Black Ajah hunters said something similar in one of the previous books, but that's just not gonna happen. The Asha'man would never accept the Reds nor would many of the Reds accept the Asha'man as warders. Sure there are a couple, but the Red is the Ajah with the most violent man haters there are among the Aes Sedai.

Also don't forget that in the future there are going to be male Aes Sedai again. Having a Red Ajah around those would be like having a swastika on the flag of samaritans.

[Getch]

I know that one of those Black Ajah hunters said something similar in one of the previous books, but that's just not gonna happen. The Asha'man would never accept the Reds nor would many of the Reds accept the Asha'man as warders. Sure there are a couple, but the Red is the Ajah with the most violent man haters there are among the Aes Sedai.

Also don't forget that in the future there are going to be male Aes Sedai again. Having a Red Ajah around those would be like having a swastika on the flag of samaritans.

 

Yeah, but Egwene is not going to disband the Ajah, clearly.  So it needs to do *something*.  And in related news, there's a whole second group of channellers now, something that the White Tower probably has vested interest in.

 

It won't be pretty or smooth, but it is the most logical future for the Red Ajah.  Personally, since the book has laid the groundwork in place already, I feel both from a "that makes sense" point of view and a "the story is foreshadowing" point of view, that this will happen.  Maybe not before TG.  Maybe not in the scope of the series, but in the future.

 

Remember, at some point the WT and the Asha'man will be fighting side-by-side at TG.  Who knows what loyalties and bonds will be created in that fight?  There is room in the book for this to happen.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I know that one of those Black Ajah hunters said something similar in one of the previous books, but that's just not gonna happen. The Asha'man would never accept the Reds nor would many of the Reds accept the Asha'man as warders. Sure there are a couple, but the Red is the Ajah with the most violent man haters there are among the Aes Sedai.

Also don't forget that in the future there are going to be male Aes Sedai again. Having a Red Ajah around those would be like having a swastika on the flag of samaritans.

 

Yeah, but Egwene is not going to disband the Ajah, clearly.  So it needs to do *something*.  And in related news, there's a whole second group of channellers now, something that the White Tower probably has vested interest in.

 

It won't be pretty or smooth, but it is the most logical future for the Red Ajah.  Personally, since the book has laid the groundwork in place already, I feel both from a "that makes sense" point of view and a "the story is foreshadowing" point of view, that this will happen.  Maybe not before TG.  Maybe not in the scope of the series, but in the future.

 

Remember, at some point the WT and the Asha'man will be fighting side-by-side at TG.  Who knows what loyalties and bonds will be created in that fight?  There is room in the book for this to happen.

 

Yes, the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man will be fighting side by side soon, but no way in hell will the Red Ajah be the bridge between the two of them. Come on could you imagine Al Kaida being the bridge between israeli and palestinians?

Which man would trust a woman who has dedicated her life to hunting down male channellers?

 

I never said that Egwene should disband them. The Red Ajah should disband itself in my opinion. I assume most have motivations besides their feelings for male channellers, most can easily get absorbed by the other ajah.

As long as the Reds are there in force the Aes Sedai will be unable to open a serious dialogue with the men. The Asha'man are there to stay and the sooner the Aes Sedai realize it the better.

[mbuehner]

Anybody else feel like the damane shouldn't have been able to shield AS so easily? Since damane can't link, it should be virtually impossible for one to slap a shield on a woman holding the power (aside from any caught completely unawares like Elaida). Even if the Sul'dams innate ability is added to the link it wouldn't be very much. On the other hand you'd think any small group of AS would immediately link and start shielding and binding damane quite easily.

 

Anyway, just my two cents.

[Durinax]

Anybody else feel like the damane shouldn't have been able to shield AS so easily? Since damane can't link, it should be virtually impossible for one to slap a shield on a woman holding the power (aside from any caught completely unawares like Elaida). Even if the Sul'dams innate ability is added to the link it wouldn't be very much. On the other hand you'd think any small group of AS would immediately link and start shielding and binding damane quite easily.

 

Anyway, just my two cents.

everyone was caught in surprise, and many of the sisters went into shock.

not to mention elaida spread the word that the seanchan where far far away and not a threat at all

[lbeefus]

Also don't forget that in the future there are going to be male Aes Sedai again. Having a Red Ajah around those would be like having a swastika on the flag of samaritans.

 

I think the "man-hater" is a bit of exaggeration which does apply to a few reds: when time has passed, I imagine history would be thankful for the Red Ajah, considering the taint...  they were needed for centuries.  Presumably, their role will transition to something else.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Anybody else feel like the damane shouldn't have been able to shield AS so easily? Since damane can't link, it should be virtually impossible for one to slap a shield on a woman holding the power (aside from any caught completely unawares like Elaida). Even if the Sul'dams innate ability is added to the link it wouldn't be very much. On the other hand you'd think any small group of AS would immediately link and start shielding and binding damane quite easily.

 

Anyway, just my two cents.

 

To be honest I'm not at all surprised that the Aes Sedai got their ass handed to them. They may be individually good channellers, but they have neither the training nor the necessary discipline for battle. They got caught with their pants down and many Aes Sedai were overwhelmed before they had even properly understood the situation. And even once they did understand the situation they still had no idea of how to respond.

 

 

I think the "man-hater" is a bit of exaggeration which does apply to a few reds: when time has passed, I imagine history would be thankful for the Red Ajah, considering the taint...  they were needed for centuries.  Presumably, their role will transition to something else.

 

There are quite a few of those man-haters among them.

History might judge them kindly, but I doubt many of the current Asha'man will. The red ajah simply carries far too negative connotations for the male channellers right now.

[Lambada]

Don't know about you, but this new thread title seems more spoilerish than just Egwenes Plotline.

This way you can assume that the tower does actually re-unite.

[JenniferL]

No, they've been working on reunifying since it split.

[WWWwombat]

Honestly I think it woulda been a surprise if the Tower didn't get reunified in TGS.  Also, I don't think Red sisters will be too much of a problem because male channelers already distrust any Aes Sedai.