White Tower Reunification Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[sheikh chilli]

as usual ares, you say alot without saying anything really. if you cannot deduce that the dark one and his minions got a complete bollocking from the reunification of the white tower and the purging of black ajah then frankly there's nothing much to say.

 

 

 

 

 

[Kivam]

Seems like the reunification is just the start of the troubles. There's the immediate threat of the blood knives.  Keeping the blacks from sneaking back into the tower for damage. Mesaana is still lurking around. It will be interesting to see if the Seanchan see the raid as a success and would want to strike again though this time with gateways. Then there's that dream of a Seanchan with a sword helping Egwene. First people to figure out anti gateway wards will have the new edge. 

 

That was fulfilled with the Seanchan attack, which helped Egwene secure the tower, both by letting her shine in beating it back and (more significantly) by removing Elaida.

[Luckers]

Seems like the reunification is just the start of the troubles. There's the immediate threat of the blood knives.  Keeping the blacks from sneaking back into the tower for damage. Mesaana is still lurking around. It will be interesting to see if the Seanchan see the raid as a success and would want to strike again though this time with gateways. Then there's that dream of a Seanchan with a sword helping Egwene. First people to figure out anti gateway wards will have the new edge. 

 

That was fulfilled with the Seanchan attack, which helped Egwene secure the tower, both by letting her shine in beating it back and (more significantly) by removing Elaida.

 

Sorry Akiva, I'm gonna give a solid 'no' to that. The dream has Egwene climbing a cliff, whereupon she is helped by a Seanchan woman who states that they 'can make it together'.

 

Irrespective of who the Seanchan woman is, its clear that the problem they overcome is a threat to both of them. Yes, Egwene is in dire straights whilst the Seanchan woman is handling things much better, but the threat is still to them both.

 

Personally I see the Seanchan Woman Dream as representing Fortuona leading an army to the Aes Sedai's help against the Shadow. Consider--the figure is female with a changing face, yet the sword is solid--the sword is the focus. That is because because it is an army (the Sword, many faces) led by Fortuona (thus showing the sex).

 

 

By the way do you truly think it took the Seanchan attack to see Egwene Amyrlin? She'd near achieved that anyway. It might have taken a week or two more, but she did not need the Seanchan.

In either case the only threat that the Aes Sedai would face that the Seanchan would go to their aid is the Shadow.

[Mr Ares]

as usual ares, you say alot without saying anything really. if you cannot deduce that the dark one and his minions got a complete bollocking from the reunification of the white tower and the purging of black ajah then frankly there's nothing much to say.

Um, sure, OK, and if you actually want to address what I said....

[masty]

Mesaana is Laras in disguise because every one remaining in the tower has taken oaths with the oath rod.

 

Egwene concern about Mesaana being able to deceive oath rod is a red herring. Semiraghe turned dark side because they asked her to use the binder(oath rod) remember.

 

Sorry wrong thread dont know how to delete post  :(

[Lambada]

Mesaana is Laras in disguise because every one remaining in the tower has taken oaths with the oath rod.

 

Egwene concern about Mesaana being able to deceive oath rod is a red herring. Semiraghe turned dark side because they asked her to use the binder(oath rod) remember.

What does Semirhages reluctance to be bound by the Binder have to do with Messanas attitude to the Binder? Messana turned after being denied a research grant (or something similar)

[masty]

Mesaana is Laras in disguise because every one remaining in the tower has taken oaths with the oath rod.

 

Egwene concern about Mesaana being able to deceive oath rod is a red herring. Semiraghe turned dark side because they asked her to use the binder(oath rod) remember.

What does Semirhages reluctance to be bound by the Binder have to do with Messanas attitude to the Binder? Messana turned after being denied a research grant (or something similar)

 

My point was we know Mesaana is in the tower(BS confirmed it), it means that she can be any one of the aes sedai there but every one has held the oath rod now. Egwene thinks that Mesaana could have cheated oath rod I believe this is a deliberate red herring because no one can cheat oath rod(from semiraghe's experience) which leaves Laras as the only non-channeler main character who could be messana.

[benr]

Mesaana is Laras in disguise because every one remaining in the tower has taken oaths with the oath rod.

 

Egwene concern about Mesaana being able to deceive oath rod is a red herring. Semiraghe turned dark side because they asked her to use the binder(oath rod) remember.

What does Semirhages reluctance to be bound by the Binder have to do with Messanas attitude to the Binder? Messana turned after being denied a research grant (or something similar)

 

I suppose Verin could have been mistaken or lying about Laras, but that calls everything she told Egwene into question.

 

My point was we know Mesaana is in the tower(BS confirmed it), it means that she can be any one of the aes sedai there but every one has held the oath rod now. Egwene thinks that Mesaana could have cheated oath rod I believe this is a deliberate red herring because no one can cheat oath rod(from semiraghe's experience) which leaves Laras as the only non-channeler main character who could be messana.

[Declan]

Mesaana is Laras in disguise because every one remaining in the tower has taken oaths with the oath rod.

 

Egwene concern about Mesaana being able to deceive oath rod is a red herring. Semiraghe turned dark side because they asked her to use the binder(oath rod) remember.

 

Sorry wrong thread dont know how to delete post  :(

 

there are plenty of other people that she could be without being Laras. and if you actually had realized that on the correct thread many people have argued and come up with the decision that the mask of mirrors cannot hold up so well for so long without being detected. Laras is not Mesaana. get over it.

[Kivam]

Seems like the reunification is just the start of the troubles. There's the immediate threat of the blood knives.  Keeping the blacks from sneaking back into the tower for damage. Mesaana is still lurking around. It will be interesting to see if the Seanchan see the raid as a success and would want to strike again though this time with gateways. Then there's that dream of a Seanchan with a sword helping Egwene. First people to figure out anti gateway wards will have the new edge. 

 

That was fulfilled with the Seanchan attack, which helped Egwene secure the tower, both by letting her shine in beating it back and (more significantly) by removing Elaida.

 

Sorry Akiva, I'm gonna give a solid 'no' to that. The dream has Egwene climbing a cliff, whereupon she is helped by a Seanchan woman who states that they 'can make it together'.

 

The cliff is symbolic; it's her struggle to reunify the WT and keep it from crumbling beneath her

 

Irrespective of who the Seanchan woman is, its clear that the problem they overcome is a threat to both of them. Yes, Egwene is in dire straights whilst the Seanchan woman is handling things much better, but the threat is still to them both.

 

Actually, no - the dream has the SC woman coming down the cliff, without any issue at all, and offering to help Egwene to the top.  In other words, no danger to the SC woman at all, only to Egwene.

 

Personally I see the Seanchan Woman Dream as representing Fortuona leading an army to the Aes Sedai's help against the Shadow. Consider--the figure is female with a changing face, yet the sword is solid--the sword is the focus. That is because because it is an army (the Sword, many faces) led by Fortuona (thus showing the sex).

 

I'd say it's Fortuona giving the order to attack Tar Valon, which leads directly to Egwene becoming the Amyrlin of a reunified tower

 

By the way do you truly think it took the Seanchan attack to see Egwene Amyrlin? She'd near achieved that anyway. It might have taken a week or two more, but she did not need the Seanchan.

 

I disagree - Elaida had thrown her in the dungeons and threatened to change the 3 Oaths, yet she was still standing.  Between the black ajah, the distrust between the sisters in various Ajahs, and the Red's support for Elaida, it was unlikely to happen any time soon without the Seanchan attack.  Hell, Silviana got tossed in the dungeons for her trouble, and nobody stopped Elaida from doing that.  Combine that with the black working to maintain the division . . . no, I think it was unlikely without the SC attack demoralizing the Aes Sedai, removing Elaida without a successor already in place, giving Egwene time to impress the entire tower and eating away at the Tower's ability to stand up to the Salidar crew if it came to an attack.

[ed2funy]

What I'm thinking about is what is she gonna do with the King of Illian Mattin Stepaneos den Balgar?? How is she gonna handle that considering her ignorance of Rand's action/motives

 

Maybe he died in the Seanchan attack....

 

then she would just have to worry about putting the blame on Elaida...

 

:D

[ed2funy]

First of all....Egwene is freakin awesome!!!

 

I think everyone can agree that in this book she had some of her best moments.

 

Now for those who think she is doing things for the wrong reasons or whatever...WOW!!!

Seriously, Egwene has proven she is doing this for the good of not only the White Tower, but for the wolr d and victory at Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Egwene is going to be the greatest Amrylin because she not only has a strong core and belief, but because she is also adaptable!!!

She is not so stuck in the Aes Sedai way that she will haughtily go to Rand and demand he let her guide him.

Whenever they do face off, yes she will get angry at him, but I also believe he will get angry and they will both teach each other some things.

 

She will realize what other Aes Sedai and Elaida's cronies have done to him...and she will put him more at ease with Aes Sedai. She will tell him that she does not mean to lose TG, and she knows that he is their only hope, but will aslo let him know he cannot do it alone!!!

 

As for reuniting the Tower:

Of course it id important, and I don't believe she went overboard or so single-minded/focused in it.

The world has always known that the WT has been a place of power, and the Amrylin could "make thrones tremble."

But she is not so conceited that she wants the power for herself. She knows that a strong Tower will make TG all that more winnable.

The WT behind the Dragon Reborn, or side by side with him, will make countries and even the more hesitant thrones bow before them or realize that TG needs men and unity!!!

[ed2funy]

So a chained AS can't be used as a weapon? I thought that wasn't true because it's the suldam who is actually in control

 

The Oaths still hold...even Tuon has said that Aes Sedai damane are worthless as weapons, but make great skylights...

[ed2funy]

If it were Darth Rand, he would have smoked Gawyn with the CK as soon as he drew his sword.  I would like to hope that Post-Veins of Gold Rand would talk him down, or at the very least not let it come to blows...  Rand is not that foolish...

 

And when do u think Gawyn will actually find out his mother is alive and sworn to Perrin and Faile?

I believe Rand is going to find out real quick since Perrin met up with Galad.....

 

 

[ilgross]

Perhaps the cliff dream refers to the Last Battle where the Seachan help break the shadows siege of the white tower. I mean if any thing is going to turn Seanchan from the stubborn idiots they are now into a shadow fighting force, the trollocs and dreadlords would be it...

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 05:05:14 AM

Quote from: Kivam on Today at 04:33:25 AM

Quote from: aeshma on November 04, 2009, 04:05:41 PM

Seems like the reunification is just the start of the troubles. There's the immediate threat of the blood knives.  Keeping the blacks from sneaking back into the tower for damage. Mesaana is still lurking around. It will be interesting to see if the Seanchan see the raid as a success and would want to strike again though this time with gateways. Then there's that dream of a Seanchan with a sword helping Egwene. First people to figure out anti gateway wards will have the new edge. 

 

 

That was fulfilled with the Seanchan attack, which helped Egwene secure the tower, both by letting her shine in beating it back and (more significantly) by removing Elaida.

 

 

Sorry Akiva, I'm gonna give a solid 'no' to that. The dream has Egwene climbing a cliff, whereupon she is helped by a Seanchan woman who states that they 'can make it together'.

 

 

 

The cliff is symbolic; it's her struggle to reunify the WT and keep it from crumbling beneath her

 

I agree the cliff is symbolic--symbolic of a struggle, a struggle Egwene is loosing. I don't think that is applicable at all to the struggle to become Amyrlin. I mean consider the wording.

 

She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. [...] Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold.

 

Egwene's struggling up this cliff, it falls away, she's hanging on by her fingertips. In dire straights by anyones understanding. Now consider where Egwene was at in the Tower before the Seanchan came--by her own words she'd just won a great victory. Here: "But she'd won. The realization was just beginning to dawn on her. She'd won! She'd resisted the worst punishment Elaida could contrive, and had come out victorious!"

 

That wasn't even my emphasis. Mere pages before the Seanchan attack, with the only other occurences being Saerin following her commands, her red guards abandoning her, and a visit from Verin.

 

The 'dangling by her finger-tips' doesn't fit. Whatever symbolic adversity the cliff represents the struggle for the Tower against Elaida was going too well. Maybe, maybe if she were still in the cells I'd buy it. But she isn't.

 

Quote

Irrespective of who the Seanchan woman is, its clear that the problem they overcome is a threat to both of them. Yes, Egwene is in dire straights whilst the Seanchan woman is handling things much better, but the threat is still to them both.

 

Actually, no - the dream has the SC woman coming down the cliff, without any issue at all, and offering to help Egwene to the top.  In other words, no danger to the SC woman at all, only to Egwene.

 

Irrespective, the Seanchan woman is on the same cliff. She's in a better position than Egwene, and perhaps better capable of climbing it, but they are facing the same metaphorical adversity. Notice, she doesn't say 'I can help you make it.' She says '"We can reach the top together,"'

 

They can reach the top together. Does this mean Fortuona is also the Amyrlin, if the 'top' is Egwene ataining the stole and uniting the Tower? No. But the dream is clear--this is an adversity shared, and a goal shared, that the attainment of which requires they help each other.

 

 

[coteaz]

I dont think that egwene will ally with the seanchan unless all collaring is stopped immediately, otherwise i see her doing raids on the damane in ebou dar and freeing collared aes sedai

[Luckers]

I see it as being more--Shadow forces have breached all of Egwene's defences. She is about to lose. Fortuona rides in and attacks.

 

Its not so much an alliance as it is them both fighting the same enemy. And I expect it only applies to the one incident.

[coteaz]

Yeah, although, id see rand and co helping out egwene, seeing as now he may be a much better persona and leader for his followers, and thus ally with egwene to use her in the overall war effort against the dark.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

When I read that scene, I instantly thought "ALIVIA!"

[coteaz]

The vision mentioned a seanchan woman with a sword, Alivia doesn't really have a need of one much less knowing how to actually use one.

[kyndkristen]

none

[Ninkharsag]

A seanchan woman with a sword brings to mind the general that fought along side Perrin.

[Declan]

that would be Tylee Kirghan. correct?

 

But i dont really want to know for sure what or who the dream was about. i like to be surprised.

[Bob T Dwarf]

For what it's worth, I agree with Luckers.  There's more danger ahead for Egwene.

 

Tylee is an interesting choice.  She's the one who is already thinking that the Seanchan need to ally with the Randlanders rather than fight them.  She would fit that dream scenario better than any other Seanchan we've met.