Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Sharaman]

According to Brandon, it's extremely difficult but not impossible to channel TP without GLoD's permission.

Rand didn't ask GLoD for help or offer to trade his allegiance, he grabbed the only weapon he could find in desperate circumstances.

At least his Rand persona didn't know what it was, before he took it and he's used to ignoring LTT's rantings.

So there's no real moral dilemma there for him. What the consequences are/ will be, we don't know.

 

About the CK Access Key, one thing that did occur to me - Rand may have been subconsciously factored the risk of losing it to a Chosen. In fact, like everyone else, he must be wondering why it was just left behind since Elza knew what it was, etc.

 

So by destroying it, at least he denies the use to GLoD's minions in a worst-case scenario. It may be like having an insecure nuke and deciding to disarm it to prevent terrorists from taking it.

 

 

[witsd]

Second, access to the True Power is limited exclusively to those with the Dark One's permission. And it's available to a very select few, not even to all of the Forsaken. But Rand even gets access to it to kill one of those very Forsaken. So what's the message there? Is it the Dark One trying to lure Rand to his side with the potential of unlimited power?

 

I think your assumption that Rand has been 'granted' access to the TP is flawed, and he has actually managed to 'hack' into it. Imagine that the one power is like a wireless network with no password protection, whilst the TP is fully encrypted. What Rand seems to have done is drill a hole through to his neighbour's house, and hook his PC up to his neighbour's (his link with Moridin), allowing him to (with a bit of effort) bypass the required password, and make full use of their network.

 

Admittedly, this does leave the suggestion that Rand was almost linked with Moridin – something I doubt is possible to do with the TP.

[Sharaman]

It's a really strange situation because Saidin channelers cannot directly link with Saidin channelers.

They need a Saidar channeler as a conduit

However, apparently either TP channelers can link directly even if they are same gender (after TP can be channeled by genders)

Or, the transference with Moridin transcends channeling laws.

(Possibly off-topic - male and female channeler would logically use different weaves even when channeling TP. That would imply that a woman channeller would need to "feel" TP differently since handling Saidar is all about surrender, whereas Saidin is a battle and according to Rand, TP is a bigger battle than Saidin.) 

[alexthegray]

I for one would find it amusing if the "blindness," the prophecies in the book spoke of. Would be the manifestation of the burning eyes, a result of Rands use (later use in the following books) of the TP.

[dapianoplay3r]

Im guessng that Cadsuane has some experiance with child birth so my theory is that elayne mite hav trouble during birth and cadsuane is the only one who can help and Rand will be so happy when the kids are born he wil cry. Here endth the lesson

[witsd]

Im guessng that Cadsuane has some experiance with child birth so my theory is that elayne mite hav trouble during birth and cadsuane is the only one who can help and Rand will be so happy when the kids are born he wil cry. Here endth the lesson

That's all well and good, but Min's viewing stated that Cadsuane would teach something to Rand and the asha'man, and it gave me the impression that this was a single thing (although I suppose there's no reason it would have to occur all at once).

[OptimusPrime]

What I was wondering is, when Rand is forced to nearly kill one of the women he loves most (Min), he grabs on to the last straw. He finds a new source of power, the True Power, and kills Semirhage with it and saves his loved one.

 

First, what is the message here? Is it that if the need is big enough, one would even turn to the Dark One for a solution? What would that mean for future situations of pressure or blackmail, would the desire to grab the 'last straw' always be there? And has that changed when Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal, which could be interpreted as a signal that using the power as a way to forcibly dominate all opposition has made way for an approach of 'love, happiness and laughter'?

 

Second, access to the True Power is limited exclusively to those with the Dark One's permission. And it's available to a very select few, not even to all of the Forsaken. But Rand even gets access to it to kill one of those very Forsaken. So what's the message there? Is it the Dark One trying to lure Rand to his side with the potential of unlimited power? And why not let Semirhage have her way, let Rand kill Min (if that was even what she intended), to get Rand enraged and distracted? It's not like Rand's own life is on the line.

 

Maybe my questions are suggestive, and perhaps they have been addressed already. Still I would appreciate some thoughts.

 

This is how I see it. Because the link between Rand and Moridin has begun to grow stronger, the merging has got to the point where they are considered one person in some ways now. Look at their meeting in TAR; to Rand it felt like it used to in EotW, as if Moridin had summoned him, yet Moridin asks why Rand summoned him. They are becoming one, and as a result I believe Rand has inheritted whichever part of Moridin that counts as "permission" to use the True Power. And I think a number of things are to be taken into account regarding why he felt the True Power when he did. First off, as saidin was so familiar, a new power could have been masked by the familiar presence of saidin itself; when he cant get to saidin, he acknoledges that they have won. He feels despair; he gave in mentally, which must have been what frame of mind Moridin must be in. Rand gave up, as Moridin did, although they did it for different reasons. Then, as a combination of being connected to Moridin and acting like Moridin, and desperately searching for saidin or anything, the True Power became available.

 

The message I got from it is that Rand became a whole lot darker than he ever was; his personaility from the events leading up to discovering the True Power and using it to kill a woman, and his Ta'veren effect on the Pattern as noted by Cadsuane, because of how dark he became.

 

I think the whole Dragon-Bae'blis rivalry is great. Especially the way it lead to Dark Rand.

 

I wonder how Rands thinking in Veins of Gold affected Moridin.

[alexthegray]

Out of curiosity. Does anyone else think that this Rand turning harder and caring less about people and adopting an ends justify means attitude; have anything to do with his merging with Moridin? Who himself was a nihilistic philosopher and not to mention one of the forsaken. That Rand is slowly becoming more and more Moridin, whilst Moridin is slowly becoming affected in his mannerisms as well by turning a bit softer with time (aka the two are opposites that will meet in the middle when their two beings fully merge)?

[OptimusPrime]

Out of curiosity. Does anyone else think that this Rand turning harder and caring less about people and adopting an ends justify means attitude; have anything to do with his merging with Moridin? Who himself was a nihilistic philosopher and not to mention one of the forsaken. That Rand is slowly becoming more and more Moridin, whilst Moridin is slowly becoming affected in his mannerisms as well by turning a bit softer with time (aka the two are opposites that will meet in the middle when their two beings fully merge)?

 

Exactly. There was a bit in Rands PoV where I literally thought "Hello Ishamael" but I cant remember which bit it was. It was before Veins of Gold as well. What I want to see is whether or not Moridin is resisting Rands emotions, especially when Rand/Lews Therin remembered love.

 

What I want to know is, do we think Rand has access to more than just Lews Therins memories now? Other than what he experienced in Rhuidean? I just wonder what was meant in the prophecy at the end, where it says "the many become one."

[Kaveman26]

I get the sense that what Cadsuane will teach Rand and the other Ashaman is that they must submit. Men will need to submit to the leadership of women in order to survive the Last Battle. I certainly know it is something that none of them will want and they certainly won't be happy with it. But the whole relationship between the sexes has been so paramount the entire series that it seems fitting

[dflinn]

According to Brandon, it's extremely difficult but not impossible to channel TP without GLoD's permission.

Rand didn't ask GLoD for help or offer to trade his allegiance, he grabbed the only weapon he could find in desperate circumstances.

At least his Rand persona didn't know what it was, before he took it and he's used to ignoring LTT's rantings.

So there's no real moral dilemma there for him. What the consequences are/ will be, we don't know.

 

About the CK Access Key, one thing that did occur to me - Rand may have been subconsciously factored the risk of losing it to a Chosen. In fact, like everyone else, he must be wondering why it was just left behind since Elza knew what it was, etc.

 

So by destroying it, at least he denies the use to GLoD's minions in a worst-case scenario. It may be like having an insecure nuke and deciding to disarm it to prevent terrorists from taking it.

 

 

 

I think it was left purposefully. We just hit a milestone in the Wheel of Time books. One of those crossroads where the wrong decision would have been the end. For those who read the Eddings books, thats a good example. When the critical times approached, generally it was a decision or a choice made, not outright combat. Rand came to the crossroads. The DO was doing everything possible to push Rand to making the choice of destroying the pattern. He would absolutely need the CK to accomplish that. Of course his decision was for the light, so instead of complete annhiliation, he is back on the path leading to Tarmon Gaidin. It seems to me that the only way the DO can escape his prison is by destroying the pattern. Ultimately it is the pattern that ensures he is imprisoned. It also seems to suggest by destroying the pattern, the DO effectively destroys everything including himself. Maybe its just his chaotic nature that his victory ends in his destruction, or maybe he just would rather be "dead" than imprisoned forever and ever.

[dflinn]

I get the sense that what Cadsuane will teach Rand and the other Ashaman is that they must submit. Men will need to submit to the leadership of women in order to survive the Last Battle. I certainly know it is something that none of them will want and they certainly won't be happy with it. But the whole relationship between the sexes has been so paramount the entire series that it seems fitting

If they have to submit to those idiot Aes Sedai I will feel I wasted the past 15 years of my life reading this series. NO WAY IN HELL will that be the case IMO. If anything this series has shown what spoiled impulsive little whiney-babies AES SEDAI have turned into and they need to be taken in hand and controlled. I almost agree with the Seanchan and just collar every AES SEDAI.

[OptimusPrime]

The Wheel makes events happen so that every time he breaks free he is imprisoned again. So his ai is to break free with Rands forces weak enough to give the Dark One enough time to destroy the Pattern, thus being free. Thats what I reckon.

 

Rand finally found his staff in TGS! When he went to Tear.

[alexthegray]

Out of curiosity. Does anyone else think that this Rand turning harder and caring less about people and adopting an ends justify means attitude; have anything to do with his merging with Moridin? Who himself was a nihilistic philosopher and not to mention one of the forsaken. That Rand is slowly becoming more and more Moridin, whilst Moridin is slowly becoming affected in his mannerisms as well by turning a bit softer with time (aka the two are opposites that will meet in the middle when their two beings fully merge)?

 

Exactly. There was a bit in Rands PoV where I literally thought "Hello Ishamael" but I cant remember which bit it was. It was before Veins of Gold as well. What I want to see is whether or not Moridin is resisting Rands emotions, especially when Rand/Lews Therin remembered love.

 

What I want to know is, do we think Rand has access to more than just Lews Therins memories now? Other than what he experienced in Rhuidean? I just wonder what was meant in the prophecy at the end, where it says "the many become one."

 

 

I wonder. All the memories Rand claims to possess. How do we know some of those are not shadows of Moridins memories? Could Rand accurately tell the difference between a Lews and an Elan memory?

 

 

I found Rands murder of Graendal to be very much like Ishamael in it's nature. It was just so cold and calculating. It somehow fit the modus operandi of Moridin/Ishamael. The extreme and over the top nature of it. As if to ensure complete success, without any chance of failure. It seems to have some similarity to how Rand briefly described how Ishamael received the title "Betrayer of Hope."

 

Also the "all must become one," I find interesting. I wonder if the final incarnation of Rand shortly before the last battle will be a fusion character mixing the traits of the morally principled farmboy, the courageous hero Lews and ruthless Elan/Ishamael/Moridin.

[lordofsoup]

well, he was dark rand, and pretty much hated the world and wanted to kill everything

[yoniy0]

I get the sense that what Cadsuane will teach Rand and the other Ashaman is that they must submit. Men will need to submit to the leadership of women in order to survive the Last Battle. I certainly know it is something that none of them will want and they certainly won't be happy with it. But the whole relationship between the sexes has been so paramount the entire series that it seems fitting

If they have to submit to those idiot Aes Sedai I will feel I wasted the past 15 years of my life reading this series. NO WAY IN HELL will that be the case IMO. If anything this series has shown what spoiled impulsive little whiney-babies AES SEDAI have turned into and they need to be taken in hand and controlled. I almost agree with the Seanchan and just collar every AES SEDAI.

 

I don't think you have to worry. RJ's theme wasn't "women dominate men", but rather how both genders have to work together to achieve greatness. Remember he talked of how the women in his family were strong, but so were the men (because the women would have eaten weaker men, is how I think he phrased it). That's the way he built the Two Rivers society (remember Tam is probably the only one we've seen talking back to Cadsuane), and I just don't see those boys yielding to strong women (that's not to say I think we'll ever see Nynaeve or Egwene ever yielding to men, either). Both halves fighting against each other, and at the same time working together, if you'd like.

[thewalrus777]

I get the sense that what Cadsuane will teach Rand and the other Ashaman is that they must submit. Men will need to submit to the leadership of women in order to survive the Last Battle. I certainly know it is something that none of them will want and they certainly won't be happy with it. But the whole relationship between the sexes has been so paramount the entire series that it seems fitting

If they have to submit to those idiot Aes Sedai I will feel I wasted the past 15 years of my life reading this series. NO WAY IN HELL will that be the case IMO. If anything this series has shown what spoiled impulsive little whiney-babies AES SEDAI have turned into and they need to be taken in hand and controlled. I almost agree with the Seanchan and just collar every AES SEDAI.

 

I don't think you have to worry. RJ's theme wasn't "women dominate men", but rather how both genders have to work together to achieve greatness. Remember he talked of how the women in his family were strong, but so were the men (because the women would have eaten weaker men, is how I think he phrased it). That's the way he built the Two Rivers society (remember Tam is probably the only one we've seen talking back to Cadsuane), and I just don't see those boys yielding to strong women (that's not to say I think we'll ever see Nynaeve or Egwene ever yielding to men, either). Both halves fighting against each other, and at the same time working together, if you'd like.

 

I believe that Rand and Egwene will come together and realise that women and men will need to start working together again in the use of the OP. One won't submit to the other. The WT has nothing to fear from men who can channal, now that the taint on Saidin is cleansed. Yeah they still need to worry about some of those channelers and their mental health(the damge done before the cleansing). But after that, the sky is the limit. I also believe it will take men and women to seal the DO completely. 

[DarkLite]

Out of curiosity. Does anyone else think that this Rand turning harder and caring less about people and adopting an ends justify means attitude; have anything to do with his merging with Moridin? Who himself was a nihilistic philosopher and not to mention one of the forsaken. That Rand is slowly becoming more and more Moridin, whilst Moridin is slowly becoming affected in his mannerisms as well by turning a bit softer with time (aka the two are opposites that will meet in the middle when their two beings fully merge)?

 

Exactly. There was a bit in Rands PoV where I literally thought "Hello Ishamael" but I cant remember which bit it was. It was before Veins of Gold as well. What I want to see is whether or not Moridin is resisting Rands emotions, especially when Rand/Lews Therin remembered love.

 

What I want to know is, do we think Rand has access to more than just Lews Therins memories now? Other than what he experienced in Rhuidean? I just wonder what was meant in the prophecy at the end, where it says "the many become one."

 

 

I wonder. All the memories Rand claims to possess. How do we know some of those are not shadows of Moridins memories? Could Rand accurately tell the difference between a Lews and an Elan memory?

 

 

I found Rands murder of Graendal to be very much like Ishamael in it's nature. It was just so cold and calculating. It somehow fit the modus operandi of Moridin/Ishamael. The extreme and over the top nature of it. As if to ensure complete success, without any chance of failure. It seems to have some similarity to how Rand briefly described how Ishamael received the title "Betrayer of Hope."

 

Also the "all must become one," I find interesting. I wonder if the final incarnation of Rand shortly before the last battle will be a fusion character mixing the traits of the morally principled farmboy, the courageous hero Lews and ruthless Elan/Ishamael/Moridin.

 

You know, Rand spends a bit of TGS wearing red and black.

[Wantanswers]

We know the Essanik Cycle was corrupted by Ishy and probably the Karaethon Cycle as well. That implies there must be a original cycle, that isn't corrupted. But we don't know if Ishy added or removed lines to/from that original. Suppose it is found and we can read the following lines in it:

 

He will kneel before the Chrytal Throne

He will bind the Nine Moons to serve him

 

Remove the first line from the KC and the second line from the EC. Both cycles are still true, but incomplete and corrupted.

'Kneeling before the Chrystal Throne' doesn't mean he will be 'kneeling before the Nine Moons'. I think he will kneel before that throne when it is emtpty and then sit down on it. By doing so he will fullfill a dream of Egwene:

 

Rand sitting down in a chair, and somehow she knew that the chair's owner would be murderously angry at having her chair taken; that the owner was a woman was as much as she could pick out of that, and not a thing more. (tFoH, What can be learned from dreams)

 

Sitting on that throne he won't have any difficulties to bind the Nine Moons

[Sharaman]

Maybe there's a little knob under the Crystal Throne that turns the compulsion thermostat up and down? Rand kneels in order to adjust and then, he binds Fortuona.

This could work. This is a PG site else one could develop the theme. 

[Tensai0211]

Has there been speculation that the crystal throne is the Tamyrlin seat and that Rand will recognise it

[Wantanswers]

I don't know if it is the Tamyrlin Seat, but it an ter'angreaal from AoL. So I think Rand wil recognise it.

[Sharaman]

Was it the Ring of Tamyrlin or the seat??

I seem to remember LTT wore the Ring of Tamyrlin,

[Tensai0211]

I was reading the Tuon/Seanchan thread where someone was talking about using the oath road to "bind" Tuon/Fortuona when i suddenly remembered Sammael talking to Sevanna and the Wise Ones, i think its in aCoS or later. he gives them another Oath Rod but he says they'd need something else to bind Rand, he refers to it as "a Binding Chair" and this lead me back to the Crystal Throne and the possibility it could be a binding chair.

 

I believe you are right, i went back and check tEotW and its does say the Ring of Tamyrlin.

[Durinax]

The ring of the tamyrlin is a sa'angreal I believe. The throne was probably made during the war of power by the shadow to force people to be devoted to the shadow.