Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Worm]

I've been thinking about this and I believe that Ishmael might actually be right about the DO being able to break the wheel. Alot of people assume that because it is the wheel of time nothing can ever really change and things will just keep repeating themselves. But the pattern has been described with the tapestry metaphor "look at a tapestry from a distance and then see the differences when you get closer" thing. It has also been said that if you could look at the pattern 100 cycles of the wheel ago it would look significantly different to the current one (well he didn't actually say that he said something else but its how I interpreted it)

 

My theory is that the DO has been forcing a draw (turning the dragon to the shadow etc) every age for countless cycles of the wheel; that he is slowly changing the pattern so that it is becoming possible for him to break out, however this will also mean that Rand will have a chance to kill him as he tries to escape from his prison.

 

If this is right it will explain alot of Ishy's comments including the one where he says something along the lines of "I think he will break out this age but he may not, but whether it is this cycle of the wheel or the next cycle he will succeed eventually". It also lends weight to the theory that the DO is trying to influence Rand somehow to achieve his goal and he is also slightly scared of him. Finally if this is true then it would allow the series to end meaningfully (does anyone really want the ending to tell us that Rand reseals the DO but it doesn't really matter because it was fated to and it is going to happen all over again anyway...)

 

 

[benr]

I view the relationship between the DO and humans as akin to a human's with bees.  Hard to understand each other, and generally a bee can't do too much to a human.  Human destroys bees that get too close as a matter of course, but uses them to his own devices as necessary.  If the bees get a swarm together, or maybe induce anaphylactic shock, then something could happen.  Don't know how this is relevant, other than to Verin's point that WOTers really have no idea what the DO is trying to accomplish.  In fighting the Forsaken, they are really just fighting other bees.

[Aleron688]

I believe you misspoke about the DO. He is in no way omnipresent. If he was omnipresent he would not be sealed away, he would not need crows, and he would not need to travel the world through SH vicariously. He might have been around since the beginning of the world, but this does not give him equal status with the Creator. Also, if the Creator created him, then the DO can not be stronger or equal to. Most of that was opinion, but by definition the DO is definitely not omnipresent.

 

fine. i rescind my earlier statement.  Now let me clarify.  He WOULD be omnipresent if the creator (who is equal to him) hadn't sealed him away from His creation. 

 

As proof of this, I give the fact that it says that he is EVERYWHERE, not just at the bore.  It is simply more possible to access him there because the pattern is thinnest there and he can exert his will there with more affect.  He uses rats/crows etc in the world because it is not his domain (expressly forbidden by the Creator) and so he needs agents to do his work there 

[MatrixM]

Actually, the bore is everywhere. You were talking about Shayul Ghul. But yeah, I agree.

[Aleron688]

Actually, the bore is everywhere. You were talking about Shayul Ghul. But yeah, I agree.

 

bore is not everywhere. i don't take back what i said :P 

 

Lanfear drilled BORE where SG is now.  that is why pattern is thinnest there.

[AvroChris]

Actually, the bore is everywhere. You were talking about Shayul Ghul. But yeah, I agree.

 

bore is not everywhere. i don't take back what i said :P 

 

Lanfear drilled BORE where SG is now.  that is why pattern is thinnest there.

 

Didn't Lanfear drill the bore at Paaran Disen (sp), whereas what is now Shayol Ghul was a peaceful island used as a holiday retreat?

[MatrixM]

Indeed.

[Mr Ares]

Is the DO a god? The DO is extremely powerful, but I don't know about it being a god. If the DO is a god I think it's in the sense of the Norse deities, who can be killed and destroyed.

 

he is a god as much as the creator is.  he has been around since the beginning and was sealed away at the moment of creation.  He is omnipresent.  He is as much a god as the creator is.

 

however, this doesn't necessarily mean he can't be destroyed... because it seems as though Rand is determined to do that... and LTT telling him he can't just makes it seem as though we will see the impossible happen.  I have mixed feelings about this

 

Seems like a funny kind of god to me. Definitely not omniscient, nor is he omnipotent.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. Gods tend not to be omniscient or omnipotent, for the most part.

 

I have serious issues with that whole section, because the Creator doesn't speak again for the rest of the series, nor does he intervene in any other way, which makes me think that either RJ was still fleshing out the idea of deity in the Wheel, or it wasn't the Creator.

It says I WILL TAKE NO PART. You wouldn't expect it to talk again of interfere further, after just saying you're on your own.

 

He might have been around since the beginning of the world, but this does not give him equal status with the Creator. Also, if the Creator created him, then the DO can not be stronger or equal to. Most of that was opinion, but by definition the DO is definitely not omnipresent.

Wait a minute. The Creator did not create Shai'tan. Or at least we haven't been given any reason to think so.

 

Quite frankly, in 100 years not many people will remember anything about any of us. We will be buried and forgotten forever.

Which is why you should traumatise your children now, so their pain is remembered long into the future. Remember, a caress is forgotten while a scar remains, so scar your kids to achieve immortality.

 

Actually, the bore is everywhere. You were talking about Shayul Ghul. But yeah, I agree.

bore is not everywhere. i don't take back what i said :P

No, the Bore is everywhere, but can best be felt at SG. It's in the books.

[Aleron688]

No, the Bore is everywhere, but can best be felt at SG. It's in the books.

 

show me quote.  i don't believe you! :)

 

DO is everywhere, outside of the world... but can be felt best at the bore. that is my interpretation

[Mr Ares]

"this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world" LoC Prologue.

[Aleron688]

"this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world" LoC Prologue.

 

SONOFABITCH! lol. fine then. SG, not Bore. i take it back

[Second Chance]

(does anyone really want the ending to tell us that Rand reseals the DO but it doesn't really matter because it was fated to and it is going to happen all over again anyway...)

Yes and NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Yes because it's RJ's world and that's an incredibly powerful theme for him, no for obvious reasons.

 

Does everyone need to be reborn and given a second chance if it's done right? Does destroying the Dark One and making a 'good' world stop the wheel turning and stop people being reborn? Maybe not...

 

Everyone assumes the cycles are fairly simply Dark One sealed and forgotten, Dark One unsealed, Dark One's prison patched, Dark One resealed to be forgotten. What about the idea that the Dark One is destroyed in one age only to be later replaced? I'm thinking about Fain who is like double distilled essence of darkness with the mark of two evils. We would have the satisfaction of Rand 'winning' but the wheel keeps on turning. I don't think Ishamael can be credited with the omniscience he claims.

[clu7ch]

As far as we know however, the Dark One isn't a person, but an idea with power. Fain is a person, with evil juice spilling out of his emaciated body. Am I the only person here who doesn't see fain as becoming the next DO?

 

Plus he hates the DO, he'd just kill himself. that'd screw up the pattern.

[karehiro]

I really wish now that heartless Dark Rand faced Fain this book.  He'll probably face him later when he's "enlightened" or whatever he's supposed to be now.  What a pity.  People like Fain and Gawyn are consistently granted a free pass in this series for what they pull.  Can't wait for the other shoe to drop on them.

 

Fain would have been hit with a big, and very unwelcome surprise.

[analyticalkeys]

I really wish now that heartless Dark Rand faced Fain this book.  He'll probably face him later when he's "enlightened" or whatever he's supposed to be now.  What a pity.  People like Fain and Gawyn are consistently granted a free pass in this series for what they pull.  Can't wait for the other shoe to drop on them.

 

Fain would have been hit with a big, and very unwelcome surprise.

 

I still think Perrin should kill Fain anyway... at least, I'm hoping that Perrin learns that his entire family was killed by Fain, and not random Trollocs. Perhaps the second time he's supposed to save Rand?

[hilightnotes]

Wooo! First post :p

 

I just wanted to mention a little idea/comment about Rand's connection with Moridin, and I figured this is the best place for it.

 

I'm thinking that when Rand was in his dark demeanor since he channeled the TP, his emotions were very close to those of Moridin, and there wasn't much difference between them. But what I'm getting at is this: I think that now that Rand has seemingly dispelled his horrible demeanor, Min, Aviendha, and Elayne are going to still feel the dark emotions. Why? Because I think that they will feel Moridin's feelings through the warder bond in addition to Rand's.

 

Anyways, that's my two cents.

 

I absolutely loved the book. Thank you so much Brandon Sanderson and Robert Jordan.

[Eleint]

For the record, most deities in mythology and theology are not all-powerful.  There are exceptions, but a lot of them aren't.  Even if the Dark One is a 'deity', it's not guaranteed that he's this semi-Abrahamic all-powerful deity that people are assuming.

 

I kind of like the idea that he -isn't-.

[The Dirty Landry]

I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up yet, but here goes:

 

Regarding the prophecy at the end of the book:

 

Does anyone else think this is not quite accurate and had been tampered with by Ishamael? The prophecy fragment is attritubed to the Seanchan version of the prophecy. I wonder if we are supposed to notice the contrast between what the prophecy says and what actually happens. I believe that it was meant to be positive and say that "He sees and laughs at what has been wrought". Instead it says he weeps. This indicates that it might not be something positive. Almost as if Ishamael was suggesting that Rand would open his eyes upon his grave and weep (mourn) at the futility of fighting the Dark One.

 

I realize that in some ways weeping can be positive, but he does NOT weep at the end of the book. We can only go on what has been written and we also know that Ishmael corrupted all of the prophecies in some form or fashion.

 

 

[cleantoe]

Maybe Fain himself will get turned to Cuendillar and be the seal to the DO's prison, and Fain's own weird taint will be a good buffer between the True Power used to seal the DO and the True Source or whatever it is the DO uses to taint stuff with.

[Sentinel78]

He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one

 

Rand doesn't have 'hands', he has one hand...  It would have been easy enough to make that prophecy "He shall hold a blade of light in his hand", instead of "hands".  Something's up with that.  *cough* body-swap with Moridin *cough*

[saidarisnowtainted]

What do you guys think about "why" and "how" Rand is connected to the world like this?

 

 

[Eleint]

The Wheel of Time is very deist.  The Creator creates a world and leaves it 'running' and doesn't interfere.  There's a lot of correction mechanisms in place in the world.  Ta'veren, Heroes of the Horn, the powers of prophecy, and so forth.  The Dragon is pretty much the ultimate corrective mechanism.  He was put there on purpose by the Creator for that purpose, to my mind.

[toss the dice]

ok so whos ready for my huge epic prophecy of the dragon rant ;D

 

here goes

 

And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered, and the Shadow shall lie across the Pattern of the Age, and the Dark One shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man. Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth. Neither shall anything stand or abide…

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before, and shall be born again, time without end. The Dragon shall be Reborn, and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind. Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. Let tears flow, O ye people of the world. Weep for your salvation.

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born,

born of a maiden wed to no man.

He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.

When the winds of Tarmon Gai’don scour the earth,

he will face the Shadow and bring forth Light again in the world.

 

- This is the “prologue” to the prophecy basically speaking about the Dragons birth: where he was born (Dragonmount), who his mother was (Aiel), and how he is destined to fight The Last Battle and save mankind.

 

Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.

 

- Talking about how he gets first the Heron tattoos and then the Dragon tattoos and what they symbolize: the herons for who he really is and the dragons for what his dealings with the Aiel mean. However the meaning of the price he must pay is unknown. My own interpretation of the “twice to live, and twice to die” is that, once he has gained the herons, his “new life” as the Dragon Reborn (twice to live). When he gets the Dragons it symbolizes how he will die twice: once as Lews Therin and once as himself.

 

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

 

- I think, although I’m not sure, that this talks about how he gets the set of double wounds on his side. I'm not sure what the mourning and the birth are though.

 

Red on black, the Dragon’s blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

 

- Don’t know yet.

 

Five ride forth, and four return.

Above the Watchers Over the Waves shall he proclaim himself,

bannered ‘cross the sky in fire.

 

- Book two, The Great Hunt, at Falme, when he is shown battling Ishmael across the sky and the Seanchen (watchers over the waves) see him and retreat.

 

When the Dragon is Reborn he will break all oaths, shatter all ties.

 

- Self explanatory

 

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon’s hand.

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till the People of the Dragon come.

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

 

- All having to do with him drawing Callandor out of the stone. Book three, the Dragon Reborn, when the Stone falls to the Aiel (people of the dragon) and he draws out Callandor. He then later puts it back to remind the people of Tear of him so they will not betray him. The person who follows after is Narishma when he retrieves the sword for Rand.

 

Power of the Shadow made human flesh,

wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.

The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,

dances the sword in dreams and mist,

chains the Shadowsworn to his will,

 

- The power of the shadow and the chains the shadowsworn could have to do with Asmodean being Rands aid for a while. The dances the sword could refer to the way the Aiel dance the spears and his relations with the Aiel.

 

from the city, lost and forsaken,

leads the spears to war once more,

breaks the spears and makes them see,

truth long hidden in the ancient dream.

He shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf.

 

- Responding to how he tells the Aiel about their past and about what he sees in Rhudien. Also the slaying with the sword of peace and destroying with the leaf is a reference to the Aiel returning to the Tinkers.

 

With his coming are the dread fires born again.

The hills burn, and the land turns sere.

The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle.

The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised.

 

- All self explanatory except for the last line. This, I believe is a referance to the DO’s prison weakening and the wall between the DO and the world being taken down.

 

Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth.

There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death.

 

- Pretty self explanatory.

 

The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign.

 

- Lord of Chaos, when the Aes Sedai start to swear fealty to Rand after Dumai’s Well.

 

The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen.

Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom.

What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up.

 

- Not sure about the serpent (other than the serpent of time reference) but the rest is kind of self explanatory (i.e. Rand taking over kingdoms and throwing down their rulers)

 

Order burns to clear his path.

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow,

for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.

 

- Reference to the food growing scarce and how Rand causes destruction even if he means to do good. By saying that the land is one with the Dragon they are saying there is absolutely nothing anyone can do while he is in his Dark Rand mode. Things will be foul when he is foul and things will be good when he is good.

 

Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield.

He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow.

Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

 

- The first two lines are talking about him forcing all the rulers of the lands into submission and making them one empire to fight at TG. However the last line is a reference to when Rand is in his evil mode and going on a total emotionless rampage.

 

As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men,

and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes.

The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice,

and he shall wear a crown of swords.

 

- Self explanatory (wearing the Laurel Crown/Crown of Swords). However the ravens could be a reference to the Seanchen in some way because the Imperial families symbol is a raven. If they were looking for an ordinary carrion bird why not say crows or vultures. I think the word raven is their for a reason.

 

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,

wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.

Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,

may learn the truth too late.

 

- This shows that Rand is not omnipotent although he likes to think he is. I think their will be some dire consequences in the final two books because of Rands view on how he works in the wheel’s schemes.

 

The Seals that hold back the night shall weaken,

and in the heart of winter shall winter’s heart be born,

amid the wailings of lamentations and the gnashing of teeth,

for winter’s heart shall ride a black horse, and the name of it is Death.

 

- Reference to where Rand started to go downhill and into his schizophrenic/madness/everything else stage. Winters Heart is where this really starts to happen.

 

And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides,

when the right hand falters and the left hand strays,

that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight,

and all that is, all that was,

and all that will be shall be shall balance on the point of a sword,

while the winds of the Shadow grow.

 

- I think this is a reference to Matt and Perrin. If your remember, the right hand (Matt) started to stray away from Rand and was not sure where he wanted his future to take him. The left hand (Perrin) strayed away in order to save his wife and in doing so, both of them left Rand, which as we know is a dangerous thing.

 

He shall heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope.

 

- Reference to the cleansing of Saidin

 

He shall bind the nine moons to serve him.

 

- Reference to the Seanchen

 

The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.

 

- Okay this is an interesting line. This is basically the same advice the finns give to him. However no where does it say that the two must be bound together in the prophecies. I know the finns said the two must be as one but I think they were talking about a different two and not the nations of the world.

 

He shall break the nations, and shatter the world.

 

- Duh.

 

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul,

washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man’s salvation.

 

- Not sure of how this will play out in the end yet.

 

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

 

- I think this is a reference specifically to Matts dealing with the finns. As you recall, his medallion has a picture of a fox chasing some ravens. Also after his meeting with the finns, he aquired his great source of good luck. The snatching the moons is a reference to Tuon.

 

When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known.

 

- When Perrin, throws away his axe and takes up the hammer, it’s a sign TG is getting closer.

 

When the Fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown.

 

- Matt marrying Tuon. Also the trumpets of battle could refer to the HoV. It is not mentioned anywhere else in the prophecy and it is hinted in the books that it must be present at the last battle.

 

well theres my two cents worth. comment as you like.

 

[dhill]

That was a really great post what about the prophesy at the end of TGS

thanks you for all the hard work.  toss the dice

[toss the dice]

That was a really great post what about the prophesy at the end of TGS

thanks you for all the hard work.   toss the dice

 

I think, although im not 100% sure, that that is from a different translation of the prophecies. This is all from one source that I found and not pieced together from several sources. Their might be other prophecies that im missing in which case, it would be cool to see if we can compare the different translations of the prophecy.