Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Thanks for posting that mrclark as I'm sure you know we had a huge debate on the tp/choedan kal question over the last week. A couple of people couldn't see that if it really was stronger (which RJ said it wasn't) then the war would have been over long ago, and the dark one free. If I can get up to Boston tomorrow I intended on asking him that very question but now I can just cross it off the list and ask another one.

 

Also, I have always thought Rand had one more 'leap' in strength of the power before the end. It has been less than 3 years since he began channeling, and we know he got stronger when Asmo taught him, but nothing else has been said about it since. I found it hard to believe that men make one jump in strength and are maxed out, especially since it sometimes takes women like 5 years or more to reach their full potential. Your interpretation of BS's answer gives this idea a bit more merit. Thanks again.

[Second Chance]

Also, I have always thought Rand had one more 'leap' in strength of the power before the end. It has been less than 3 years since he began channeling, and we know he got stronger when Asmo taught him, but nothing else has been said about it since. I found it hard to believe that men make one jump in strength and are maxed out, especially since it sometimes takes women like 5 years or more to reach their full potential. Your interpretation of BS's answer gives this idea a bit more merit. Thanks again.

I agree that Rand may well get more powerful - I posted in another thread about when Merise talks to Cadsuane about Narishma's jumps in power (of which there must have been a few to merit discussion) and Rand hasn't had many. But I would say the odds are against him going into battle without an an angreal at the very least, or linked, if not using Callandor. Unless destroying the Choedan Kal was his way of saying he doesn't need any of those things.

 

Also my bad on the balefire thing. Myself and the people I usually talk about the book with generally aren't big forum readers/posters, and we all thought it was curtains for eternity.

 

[kevin-nivek]

well, were probably gonna finally get a fair fight between moridin and rand. Ishamael was always said to be the only forsaken equal to lews therin. on top of that he has years of extra experience now from all the times he was released from the seal. Any kind of angreal would give rand an unfair advantage and we'll never get to see whos truly the most talented channeler of the age

[ed2funy]

It's becoming very clear that the Dark One cannot be free with the Dragon dead. The Dragon is the only one that can free the Dark One. Why? I dont know yet.

 

True, but what's the point of granting Rand access to the True Power?

 

Wouldn't it serve the Dark One's purpose better for Rand to be captive of Semirhage with the Domination Band?  With that Band, presumably they could make Rand do whatever they want, including finding and breaking the seals holding the Dark One back (or at least holding him still to forcibly turn him to the Shadow with the 13 Dreadlords/Fades)

 

I'm gonna be quoting a lot...so you might see my name quite a few times...

Now, I don't have the direct quote...because i am too lazy to look through the book to get them....but i don't believe the True Source is granted by the Dark One.

 

Yes, I think the True Power is related to the Dark One, but only in the sense that Rand became a very dark person at that moment he drew on the source.

 

He believed he had nothing left, and he grew detached from all emotions, enabling him to kill women because it won't affect him like it used to. He felt nothing...all his emotions were hidden and he was in a deeper void than ever.

This power can be granted by the Dark One, but that is not the only way to reach it!

 

Unless of course, I am completely wrong and it was his connection to Moridin or both....

[anotherfingolfin]

I dont think that rand will go backwards in any way it just seems too late in the race for him to go back to a farm boy who gets pushed around by everyone. but now we meay see some better interaction between rand mat and perrin

 

i really, really hope it plays out the way you say. also, the first thing he needs to do is find Tam, apologise and have the heart-to-heart he resisted earlier.

 

I asked BS about that tonight at the DC signing because it bugged me too.  Sanderson said Rand realized that he did not need the CK for the last battle.  BS also said that Rand was not at a point where he needed the CK for anything he wanted to do.  He said the sentence in a way that leads me to believe post epiphany Rand is much stronger than pre epiphany Rand though that is my interpretation of his sentence.

 

On the subject of the CK, BS said that the true power was not as strong as someone with the CK.  Just it felt as tempting and as addictive as the one power through the CK.

 

hmm. i still don't see how having a powerful ace up your sleeve is unnecessary. i still get the feeling it was symbolic. but if BS said so, let's see how it plays out. sure, i understand that Rand was being an idiot to think that he could destroy Dark One with OP, but still, i am sure he will have other instances where his strong ability will save his neck.

also, another increase in his strength would be cool, but i think it is unlikely.

[ed2funy]

A Verin thread would also be nice  ;D

 

Yes, I always loved her character...and I was soooo shocked when she said she was Black.

But, in effect, she was not, she went undercover, because her life depended on it...

I think Egwene will see her memory is good...and that all Aes Sedai will know of her "sacrifice"

[kevin-nivek]

Destroying the CK wasn't just a plot requirement to stop rand from winning to easy. If that was the case RJ would of made it melt like the female one did. It was obviously to show rand that a bigger hammer isnt the key

[ed2funy]

3 will become one...

 

I believe that Avienda will sense that the Dark One's prison is, in fact, a type of ter'angreal.

 

Rand will be wielding Callandor, form a circle with Avienda and Elayne. Elayne will lead. She will create a new prison for the Dark One with her abilities creating ter'angreal.

 

The Lion Throne is "the key to victory" is she not?

 

In the process they will all, knowingly, burn themselves out. Callandor lacking the buffer that all sa'angreal have that allows the person using it to wield it safely..

 

Min will be killed in book 13, causing them all great pains, but allowing Elayne and Avienda to marry Rand as first sisters...

 

3 will become one....

 

 

 

ter'angreal thing could work...

I don't think she will create a new one, if it is that way, but she can re-activate it....I mean seriously, you think she will have time to make a whole new ter'angreal while people are fighting the DO and his forces!!!???

 

"The Royal line of Andor" is the key to victory, and even it directly said "the lion throne", then rand is still tied to Elayne, by bonding and, hopefully eventually, marriage.

 

Callandor lacks buffer, yes. That is why a man needs two women to guide him, ACTING AS THE BUFFER!!!

 

NO....Min can't die....I don't think she will...she can still marry Rand with Aviendha and Elayne....

[ed2funy]

Yet in any 2 person link, ( and possibly some other larger ones ) she was required to take a backseat, to surrender control of the link to the man.

 

Wrong. Either person can direct the flows. We see Rand do it at the cleansing. We see female Aes Sedai do it with their Ashaman warders.

 

Wrong. It never said that they channeled...only that they can fell Saidin.

At Shadar Logoth, I believe that every two person group was led by the asha'man, and the three member groups were led by women.

[ed2funy]

That's why that scene is no important.. not that Rand used the TP which is bad in and of itself.. but what the TP actually is. Rand channeled the Dark One through himself like a conduit. That's awful! He's the proxy for the light. The greatest taveren to ever live. Is it any surprise that immediately after he went into darthRand mode and food would spoil simply being around him? He was more Moridin than Moridin at that point! The reconciliation at the end was beyond important. We were about 1 second from the end of the world when he nearly blasted the borderlander army. And about .1 second away from the end of the world when he nearly destroyed the Seanchan. By allowing the DO to funnel through him he nearly turned. That is probably how 13 dreadlords and 13 myrdraal forcibly turn people.. by funneling the DO through them. Rand nearly did it to himself.

 

I just want to point out something in what you said, and what others probably said...

 

the food didn't just spoil because he was there, but because of the choice he made!

He decided to leave Bander Eban and leave thousands upon thousands of people to deal with the Seanchan, and surviving....

 

That was the moment the food spoiled, when he decided to leave defenseless poeple starve, he in effect took the Light away from them, took the hope of survival from them...and the DO had more power....

 

anyway, that's what I think....

[sheikh chilli]

my only grievance was the CK destruction, but that is a whole different debate.

 

I asked BS about that tonight at the DC signing because it bugged me too.  Sanderson said Rand realized that he did not need the CK for the last battle.  BS also said that Rand was not at a point where he needed the CK for anything he wanted to do.  He said the sentence in a way that leads me to believe post epiphany Rand is much stronger than pre epiphany Rand though that is my interpretation of his sentence.

 

On the subject of the CK, BS said that the true power was not as strong as someone with the CK.  Just it felt as tempting and as addictive as the one power through the CK.

 

 

which does not make sense because while the CK wont be used in sealing up the bore, it would have been very handy in smashing the dark one's armies at the final battle.

 

 

you know trollocs, fades and all sorts of shadow spawn are going to pour out from the blight. Not to mention dreadlords as well. Rand could simply hand the kal to logain, narishma, or flinn and  tell them to wield it against the maurading armies of the dark one. While rand takes up the sealing of the bore itself.

 

 

That would save the light their armies and people's lives as well. Unlike the war of power where they were getting their ass kicked by the shadow forces and millions of people were getting killed under the might of sammael and demandreds forces.

 

 

 

[Ashamandragoran]

my only grievance was the CK destruction, but that is a whole different debate.

 

I asked BS about that tonight at the DC signing because it bugged me too.  Sanderson said Rand realized that he did not need the CK for the last battle.  BS also said that Rand was not at a point where he needed the CK for anything he wanted to do.  He said the sentence in a way that leads me to believe post epiphany Rand is much stronger than pre epiphany Rand though that is my interpretation of his sentence.

 

On the subject of the CK, BS said that the true power was not as strong as someone with the CK.  Just it felt as tempting and as addictive as the one power through the CK.

 

 

which does not make sense because while the CK wont be used in sealing up the bore, it would have been very handy in smashing the dark one's armies at the final battle.

 

 

you know trollocs, fades and all sorts of shadow spawn are going to pour out from the blight. Not to mention dreadlords as well. Rand could simply hand the kal to logain, narishma, or flinn and  told them to weild it against the maurading armies of the dark one. While rand takes up the sealing of the broe itself.

 

 

That would save the light their armies and people's lives as well. Unlike the war of power where they were getting their ass kicked by the shadow forces and millions of people were getting killed under the might of sammael and demandreds forces.

 

 

 

 

Maybe Rand realizes that during the final battle he won't be dealing with the fades/trollocs and will be dealing with more important issues. He doesn't trust anyone else to have that much power, he says so himself, so if he doesn't need it, than he destroys it.

[Whiskeyob]

So am i the only one that assumes that Rands Sickness when he grabs hold of saidin will be gone in the next book?  Everyone seems to think that it has to do with the taint on saidin but why is it then that none of the asha'man are experiencing it? neither Logain or taim are experiencing it even tho they both have dealt with the power longer?  My explanation is that rand has be making himself more emotionally cut off, harder.  Notice that the sickness doesn't start until he starts hardening himself after killing Liah in Shadar Logoth. the harder he becomes the more intense the sickness becomes.  Up to the final time in Ebou Dar when "The sickness washed across him more powerfully than it ever had before."  If it was the taint then why is it that the sickness keeps getting worse even after the taint of cleansed.

[cavolt]

Yet in any 2 person link, ( and possibly some other larger ones ) she was required to take a backseat, to surrender control of the link to the man.

 

Wrong. Either person can direct the flows. We see Rand do it at the cleansing. We see female Aes Sedai do it with their Ashaman warders.

 

Wrong. It never said that they channeled...only that they can fell Saidin.

At Shadar Logoth, I believe that every two person group was led by the asha'man, and the three member groups were led by women.

 

A man must lead the circle if there are more than 13 women in it. Otherwise either can lead.

[sheikh chilli]

my only grievance was the CK destruction, but that is a whole different debate.

 

I asked BS about that tonight at the DC signing because it bugged me too.  Sanderson said Rand realized that he did not need the CK for the last battle.  BS also said that Rand was not at a point where he needed the CK for anything he wanted to do.  He said the sentence in a way that leads me to believe post epiphany Rand is much stronger than pre epiphany Rand though that is my interpretation of his sentence.

 

On the subject of the CK, BS said that the true power was not as strong as someone with the CK.  Just it felt as tempting and as addictive as the one power through the CK.

 

 

which does not make sense because while the CK wont be used in sealing up the bore, it would have been very handy in smashing the dark one's armies at the final battle.

 

 

you know trollocs, fades and all sorts of shadow spawn are going to pour out from the blight. Not to mention dreadlords as well. Rand could simply hand the kal to logain, narishma, or flinn and  told them to weild it against the maurading armies of the dark one. While rand takes up the sealing of the broe itself.

 

 

That would save the light their armies and people's lives as well. Unlike the war of power where they were getting their ass kicked by the shadow forces and millions of people were getting killed under the might of sammael and demandreds forces.

 

 

 

 

Maybe Rand realizes that during the final battle he won't be dealing with the fades/trollocs and will be dealing with more important issues. He doesn't trust anyone else to have that much power, he says so himself, so if he doesn't need it, than he destroys it.

 

 

thats a fair point. rand not trusting anyone besides himself to use the kal. But that would mean he's has become crazy rand again. the rand that suspects almost everybody. after veins of gold and his transformation to normal rand again, his suspicion has to be low.

[EnderWarrior]

Thats a good point with the sickness and it does match up, Another thing LTT  was alsot getting more and more active as the books went on and now he wont hear him any more they become one maybe it was due to his struggling with LTT for control

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Yet in any 2 person link, ( and possibly some other larger ones ) she was required to take a backseat, to surrender control of the link to the man.

 

Wrong. Either person can direct the flows. We see Rand do it at the cleansing. We see female Aes Sedai do it with their Ashaman warders.

 

Wrong. It never said that they channeled...only that they can fell Saidin.

At Shadar Logoth, I believe that every two person group was led by the asha'man, and the three member groups were led by women.

 

A man must lead the circle if there are more than 13 women in it. Otherwise either can lead.

 

Wrong.  When the circle contains seventy-two members, or when it only contains one man and one woman, or for most circles of up to thirteen that have more than one man, the leader must be one of the men.

 

Taken from http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Linking_Information

[benr]

How?

 

(Refers to "It occurs to me that Rand nearly became Rand al'Thor Kinslayer.")

 

By almost killing his (adoptive) father.

[deepak_dragonreborn]

I was just thinking..Rand has only revealed 2 of the questions that he asked the Aelfinn(if my memory isnt failing me..if Rand has revealed all the 3 questions someone plz post the 3rd one )...What if the 3rd answer he gets is the real clue tht will play a huge role in the next books??I mean we havent really discussed about it much and we dont really have any clue as to what question he asked..Thoughts???

[Red2111]

sorry if this has been said, but i had a revalations last night while reading Moridin/Rand convo.

 

if the DO controls who gets access to the TP, and Moridin and Rand are some how connected. (i believe through LTT)

 

then maybe it was this connection is what allowed Rand to access the TP. 

[mrc1ark]

you know trollocs, fades and all sorts of shadow spawn are going to pour out from the blight. Not to mention dreadlords as well. Rand could simply hand the kal to logain, narishma, or flinn and  tell them to wield it against the maurading armies of the dark one. While rand takes up the sealing of the bore itself.

 

 

That would save the light their armies and people's lives as well. Unlike the war of power where they were getting their ass kicked by the shadow forces and millions of people were getting killed under the might of sammael and demandreds forces.

 

This was my point I made back to BS when asking about the CK.  Why didn't Rand go blow up bad guys for like 30 minutes then destroy the CK.  That was when BS told me that Rand didn't need the CK for anything he wanted to do anymore.  This is what makes it sound like Rand is strong enough that he could go just roll the Dark Army if he wanted on his own now.  Thats what it sounded like to me at least but BS wouldn't get more specific.

[Davemandred]

Just a couple of thoughts....

 

One, everyone who is angered by the smashing of the CK needs to remember something. The One Power is addictive. The more you have, the more you want. And, like anything that causes addiction, it clouds your judgement when used.

 

Due to the nature of Saidin, channeling that much power is simply too tempting for Rand. He has proven he can't handle it mentally. Nobody can. That is why the CK should never have been built. It is the AOL equivalent of a nuke. Undoubtedly effective, but way to dangerous to use. It would have destroyed Rand. It may have been the only thing that could have completely set the Dark One free.

 

Two, some have said Rand must use the True Power as the buffer while sealing the bore. This is totally impossible. It's like saying I am going to seal a hole in a jar of peanut butter, because peanut butter is escaping. I will use peanut butter as a buffer so I don't touch peanut butter.

 

The True Power IS the Dark One. It is his essense. It is altogether corrupt, and Rand can never touch it again, or else he is corrupted anew.

 

A much better alternative for a buffer would be the Mordeth, in the person of Padan Fain. We already know Mordeth is anathema to the Dark One....they don't mix. If the Dark one tries to taint Fain, it will be a useless jesture since Fain has already been tainted by the Dark One's distilling of his soul. After all, Shadar Logoth and all its evilly badness was used to help cleanse Saidin. And the DO wants Fain dead as much as he wants anything. Why? Surely Fain increases chaos. Fain must pose a danger.

 

This is how Fain could have his smeagol moment. Rand uses him as a focus for the new seal on the DO's prison. Poetic justice. Balance. Kharma.

 

Or maybe he just shoves Fain and Moridin in the bore and watches the eternal catfight. :)

 

[tneva82]

Rand could simply hand the kal to logain, narishma, or flinn and  tell them to wield it against the maurading armies of the dark one.

 

Sheesh. If Rand doesn't trust himself to not blow the universum with it how can he trust others with it? Could YOU trust anybody with something that can destroy the universum without 2nd thought?

 

And CK wouldn't be end-of-all deus-ex-machina anyway. It does have it's limits you know. You don't become god with it.

[tneva82]

Due to the nature of Saidin, channeling that much power is simply too tempting for Rand. He has proven he can't handle it mentally. Nobody can. That is why the CK should never have been built. It is the AOL equivalent of a nuke. Undoubtedly effective, but way to dangerous to use. It would have destroyed Rand. It may have been the only thing that could have completely set the Dark One free.

 

Worse than nuke really. Nukes can blow out our world. CK can take out whole creation, whole universum, and lot more easily than nukes can. And nukes aren't nearly as addictive as saidin boosted by CK is. Yes we have nukes in our world but I don't see any country activelly tossing them around...Rand was using CK pretty freely on tGS. Universum was within second of total annihilation 2-3 times in that book as it was...

[Vorkia]

Ok maybe I'm missing something (or I'm just too dense to understand) but how under the light can someone use a person as a buffer?  Not that I don't think its a plausible theory, but I have tried to wrap my brain around it and It just does not want to comprehend.