Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[lillcheese]

I may be wrong, but most people seem to think Graendal is indeed dead and that the Shadow played a minimal role in this book, and that the greatest evil was Rand himself...

 

As Rand searches for the king, a source to find him is provided. An extremely handsome man, supposedly Graendal's courier, is a captive of the merchant Rand captured (however, we know Graendal rarely gives up her pets for small jobs. Her previous couriers were never handsome enough). Convenient. This captive is then promptly killed on Rand's arrival, which should lead him/someone near him to believe that this man held the key to Graendal's secret location.

 

If anyone were to come looking for this man, a conveniently placed "spy" of Graendal's would be found, on whom suspicion will fall immediately because he has been poisoning the imprisoned merchant! Why would Graendal have him do that if she wants to avoid notice?

 

More importantly, why kill the first courier? His brain would have been damaged by the compulsion. One could argue Graendal foresaw what happened with Kerb and wanted to prevent her courier from blabbing. But it makes no sense to replace one such threat with an equal threat (Kerb), and then have a fiery arrow pointed at the new threat!

 

Kerb was meant to be found. And his mentioning of Natrin's Barrow a case of Graendal's subtle compulsion, which we know is very difficult to detect.

 

So, you think, Rand has been pointed towards Graendal's lair. Natrin's Barrow makes sense, since we know Graendal's lair was in sight of the Misty Mountains (according to Sammael). But Sammael also says that her palace was widely known in Arad Doman. Rand directly contradicts this when he says the general populace of Arad Doman doesn't remember Natrin's Barrow, nor does the king, and the royal archivist had to search for four hours to locate it. No way will the royal archivist in one of the worlds foremost libraries take four hours to locate a fortress that is well known in his own country!

 

Another thing... Sammael guesses that everyone leaving Graendal's lair probably left subtly compelled into believing that she was a descendant of a family that had lived here since the Breaking. That Rodel Ituralde comes to visit "Lady Basene" certainly points to such an impression being created by Graendal.

 

Yet, Rand reports that his scouts heard from the villagers that someone new lives in Natrin's Barrow and that the old occupants were no longer there, and they never thought about the change. This doesn't add up to what kind of history Graendal would have set up for herself.

 

Therefore, Natrin's Barrow was never Graendal's lair! It was a palace full of innocent people that Rand was to destroy.

 

 

I found this argument fairly convincing.  The "Lady Basene" evidence could really go either way though.  

 

Everything Rand tries to do in this book ends up tragically wrong until the very last when he's cured.  I'm not sure that it makes sense for this one part to work out the way he wants it.

[Mr. Micawber]

I really would not be surprised to find that she either wasn't in the palace, or she timed the weave to vanish after a Delving, and then got the flaming Pit of Doom out of there.

[richnewton82]

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[Mr. Micawber]

Rich, the only possible response to that is clear:

 

"But I don't want to leave my aged aunt!"  :P

[bushleague]

I really would not be surprised to find that she either wasn't in the palace, or she timed the weave to vanish after a Delving, and then got the flaming Pit of Doom out of there.

 

Agreed.  I have no doubt that she was in there when he sent his messenger in, but bailed before Rand blasted the bejesus out of it.  Although it seems like it was way too obvious she would survive (based on RJ in the past) I think she actually did.  Everytime a Forsaken is killed we clearly see in their, or another's PoV, their death.  

 

Personally I think Graendal will be the last Forsaken (other than Moridin) left standing... in fact I'm going on a limb and saying she will be the only one to survive the last battle... moghedian and cynfear will have to fight because of Moridin, Arangar has already died once and I have no doubt she will again, Demandred is way to focused on LTT for one of them not to die and we already know that either Rand or Moridin is going to kick the bucket... or bodyswap.

 

Rj could have swapped the PoV of the forsaken but he constantly used Graendal, especially when Sammael was around and even now when she's one of the few left.  They're planning something big for her, I'm just not sure what.

[bushleague]

Just finished the book and I gotta say IMO one of, if not the, best in the series. Honestly, I think BS did a better job even than RJ of making the characters real and believeable. Not to take anything away from the master, he did plot and storyline better than anyone i've ever read, but characters just weren't his strong suit.

 

Having said that, my only disappointment was Mat. Maybe BS just didn't get him, but I thought he just came off whiny in this one. I actually found myself liking Egwene in this one for the first time in the series. And Rand, OMG, Rand. The scenes with him were probably some of the best i've ever read in any book. At several points in the book i actually found a tear or two sliding down my face. Pure awesomeness.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have to agree on Mat being the only character I found odd under BS.  It seemed like he was way more sarcastic than usual and talked far too much.  It's hard to describe but I feel like BS was overcompensating... like he was trying to hard to make Mat be Mat.  Then again I've always been a Perrin fan anyways <waits for tomatoes for be thrown at him>

[algspkr]

I believe that Rand will channel the True Power at least one more time.

 

Lewis Therin says that Sadin was tainted because they used it to push the DO into his prison.  This implies that they cannot safely do this with the One Power and so Rand will use the True Power to push the DO in.

 

I will post this again when we are allowed to post such things elsewhere.

 

 

[richnewton82]

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[The Desert Pea]

What a book... That was amazing. BS did an amazing job here. And that ending... Wow. It hasn't hit me yet, but that was just amazing. Can't describe it in any other way.

[theblacksmith]

 

This is my first time posting in a forum, so please forgive if I bungle.

Just a huge fan of the series.

Something's been bothering me since the beginning of the series and I thought had more evidence in this new book and I wanted to see if anyone agreed.  

For some reason, I really think that Ileyana has been reborn as Min, Aviendha, and Elayne.  I think this is what it means with the "Sword becomes light, three become one" prophecy (Min, Aviendha & Elayne becoming one again).  And in the last chapter Rand wonders if "she" was reborn again too.

I have some more evidence from the other books, too but don't want to clog this thread.

For some reason, I think this is important for the later books . . .  

Any one else agree?

 

 

my friend called me the other day and had this exact same thought, and i did think about it after i read that part, but...   why would ileyana need to be respun, yes she was AS and maybe she was very powerful but i dont see why she would need to be spun out or why the thread would be split.  Remember Min saw the three women over Rand's body and if we take the 3 are Min Aviendha and Elayne then they have not become one when he "dies"

 

well we know that the pattern often spits out great loves  (Brigitte said she was always spun out with Cain)  I can't imagine that ileyana wouldn't be spun out since lews therin killed himself over his grief for her.  as far as the thread splitting.  if we assume a soul is one thread, and we know a soul can be ripped from a body (Ishmael tried to rip Rands from his body in TDR), can we not assume a soul can be ripped in three?  and what would cause a soul enough pain to rip in three than the fact that the person that is your husband is/has killed you?

I don't think the three becoming one will be permanent though.  Just a way to combine powers and mount an attack, but I can't imagine the "bodies" being fused. 

 

I believe everyone is looking at this completely wrong. I believe the true message was you go on living so you can get a chance to get it right. LTT knew he made a mess of it last time, Rand was debating ending it all for all time( why go on, why be spun out again again) to avoid the repeated breaking and horror humanity faced at "his" rebirth time and time again. The answer was not to find and love Ileyana ,this was an example, sure she could be reborn, but I just cannot figure this would be the driving force of "The Dragon" in every rebirth we know for true, he killed her ONCE. What of the other thousand turnings. All Dragons perhaps have a "female issue" LTT killed all of his Kin, Rand does  not want to hurt women. The heroes in TGH told him, "you always pick women  who give you trouble." and they laughed because it was a commonly accepted fact there is a constant female issue. The bright light and three becoming one is obviously LTT, Moridin, and Rand, the light the threatening balefire weave directed at his father. Which drove him to DM where he could have this revelation.

 

 

BTW love this site :)

[algspkr]

When can we start posting about TGS in the general WoT forums? Can we do it now?

 

For the love of god no. Spoilers go on this board until everyone has had a chance to read it, including foreign countries where it hasn't been released yet. So at least another month.

Can you please at least adjust the rules of this board so that we can discuss it openly here?

[Beren]

About Graendal, would anyone like to quote what Moridin said to her at the start of the book?

 

He said she did a better job at being a spider than Moghedien did. And we know that all the Forsaken are annoyed that Moghedien always seems to pop back up just when you think you have killed her.

 

I think Graendal is still alive. I would say there is an 80% chance of it. If not, I think Brandon did a very poor job of that death scene.

[Beren]

When can we start posting about TGS in the general WoT forums? Can we do it now?

 

For the love of god no. Spoilers go on this board until everyone has had a chance to read it, including foreign countries where it hasn't been released yet. So at least another month.

Can you please at least adjust the rules of this board so that we can discuss it openly here?

 

The full book thread (the one you are in right now) would be the place to discuss something although I think we were asked to only give our views of the book and not discuss too much.

[richnewton82]

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[The Desert Pea]

The amount that Moiraine is mentioned by various characters in the book makes me very excited for ToM.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Dude, I said it like an hour ago. Think of her as Hannibal Lecter, and it will make more sense. When someone(i think it was you) said Rand himself knew she was smarter and had to do something she wouldn't expect, he was in fact doing exactly what she knew he would. Sociopathic, genius people like her read people like most of us read a book. In case something like this happened, she had this remote fortress set up, which fit what LTT knows of her, and everything planned out. She knew he wouldn't come at her directly, so that leaves a massive assault, probably with callandor or the choedan kal. She left just enough evidence through the compulsion vanishing that he would believe her dead, and took off. Now she is effectively off of his radar until she places herself there again, as she is too careful to make a mistake and expose herself unintentionally. She has until the last battle (or whenever Moridin or Shai'tan calls upon her) to sow chaos and pursue her pleasures. I think this fits perfectly with both the fact that there are two more books, and with Graendal's personality.

[bushleague]

you guys are all assuming she would have known what Rand was going to do. I don't see that as being remotely possible. I doubt a single reader expected rand to walk through that gateway and balefire the entire place instantly. she wouldn't have either. you are talking about putting plans in place weeks and weeks in advance knowing this would go down in this way.. that's pretty absurd.

 

until I see a reason to believe otherwise, graendal is dead to me. anything else is completely unreasonable speculation.

 

I know this discussion will go on forever, but it's all good.

 

From the info we get from Rand, Graendal never liked to fight in the open and would run at the first sign of suspicion... we know that she knew that Rand had sent an emmissary to her.  She would also have to figure that she knew he was in the area.  Rand talked in length about how she would not fight him and that she would have many other places to hide.

 

From the info we've had from Graendal throughout the series, she directly says she has no problems with leaving and starting over, that shes not too stubborn to get herself killed, and most of all she is the ONLY forsaken who doesn't underestimate Rand.  She realizes that he is way stronger than her and she would lose if they fought openly.  From her comments when she tries to persuade Sammael to leave Illian before he's attacked by Rand, we know that she is willing to give up her position in order to live.  She is not stubborn like the other forsaken, a fact that has allowed her to be one of the few left.

 

Why then, is it not concievable that she would be smart enough to leave as soon as she becomes aware of Rand's knowledge of her palace?  Even if she's not sure that he found it on purpose or accidently?  She could also have bailed to check another location to make sure that it's prepared if she needs to leave, and in the next book we'll see her travel back and find her palace and everything in it gone.

 

You could very well be right and she might be dead, I just think there were WAY too many things that point to her leaving and assuming that Graendal was ignorant of Rand's knowledge of her whereabouts is too easy of a solution.  And once again, no confirmation = almost complete assurance she's alive IMO

[theblacksmith]

I thought Verin's big reveal to Egwene was poorly done ... it seemed kinda fanfic to me.

 

Your shirt is green! lol just kidding I'm black ajah!

 

 

 

Hmmm, I don't know...I can honestly say there were very clear hints from Verin's PoV (while she was putting delicate webs of compulsion on the captive sisters) where she all but admitted she had done things and served very mean people. I assumed she was Black Ajah at the time, but I never really wanted it to be true. The way it was finally revealed was wonderful to me, and it fit her personality. Her serious interest in Rand, Mat, and Perrin, her very unbrown-like looks from time to time, her almost poisoning Cadsuane, and all of life saving help she provided throughout the series. I believe RJ did her justice in her final scene and if a few of us loved it ***shrug*** was one of the best scenes ever. Right up their w/Nynaeve launching "The Golden Crane"

[richnewton82]

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[DemandredFO]

I don't believe Greandal is dead either, she's in favor with Moridin and then she dies and no confirmation other than something that could be faked.

Aginor/Balthamel 1st time:  seen as dead by multiple people

Be'lal:  killed by moraine

Ishamael:  killed by Rand

Rahvin:  killed by Rand/helped by Nyneave and corraborating evidence

Lanfear:  dragged through the door by Moraine and killed by the Finns

Sammael:  killed by Rand, Balefire and Mashadar were around

Aginor 2nd time:  killed by Elza and witness by her

Asmodean:  POV of Death

 

Greandal was too important not to have a death scene.

What I'd most like to know is what the hell is Aran'Gar doing.  I wonder if he's at the black tower now.

 

About the Purge, in the testing there's still black ajah in there and they have Myrdraal there and Rand.  Now, some of this is probably the testing and no more but I'm wondering if someone(Mesaana) tampered with the Oath Rod.

[Wesley_O]

When can we start posting about TGS in the general WoT forums? Can we do it now?

 

For the love of god no. Spoilers go on this board until everyone has had a chance to read it, including foreign countries where it hasn't been released yet. So at least another month.

Can you please at least adjust the rules of this board so that we can discuss it openly here?

 

The full book thread (the one you are in right now) would be the place to discuss something although I think we were asked to only give our views of the book and not discuss too much.

 

Isn't it possible to hide thread titles to those not actually in the section?

It would be a lot easier to discuss the book if it were opened to people who wanted to discuss. And people on the outside could be protected by no thread titles.

[richnewton82]

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[bushleague]

I don't believe Greandal is dead either, she's in favor with Moridin and then she dies and no confirmation other than something that could be faked.

Aginor/Balthamel 1st time:  seen as dead by multiple people

Be'lal:  killed by moraine

Ishamael:  killed by Rand

Rahvin:  killed by Rand/helped by Nyneave and corraborating evidence

Lanfear:  dragged through the door by Moraine and killed by the Finns

Sammael:  killed by Rand, Balefire and Mashadar were around

Aginor 2nd time:  killed by Elza and witness by her

Asmodean:  POV of Death

 

Greandal was too important not to have a death scene.

What I'd most like to know is what the hell is Aran'Gar doing.  I wonder if he's at the black tower now.

 

About the Purge, in the testing there's still black ajah in there and they have Myrdraal there and Rand.  Now, some of this is probably the testing and no more but I'm wondering if someone(Mesaana) tampered with the Oath Rod.

 

Agreed.  Killing off one of the 13 most powerful dark channelers, especially by balefire, with no confirmation is what makes me certain shes alive.

[Trutino]

I may be wrong, but most people seem to think Graendal is indeed dead and that the Shadow played a minimal role in this book, and that the greatest evil was Rand himself...

 

As Rand searches for the king, a source to find him is provided. An extremely handsome man, supposedly Graendal's courier, is a captive of the merchant Rand captured (however, we know Graendal rarely gives up her pets for small jobs. Her previous couriers were never handsome enough). Convenient. This captive is then promptly killed on Rand's arrival, which should lead him/someone near him to believe that this man held the key to Graendal's secret location.

 

If anyone were to come looking for this man, a conveniently placed "spy" of Graendal's would be found, on whom suspicion will fall immediately because he has been poisoning the imprisoned merchant! Why would Graendal have him do that if she wants to avoid notice?

 

More importantly, why kill the first courier? His brain would have been damaged by the compulsion. One could argue Graendal foresaw what happened with Kerb and wanted to prevent her courier from blabbing. But it makes no sense to replace one such threat with an equal threat (Kerb), and then have a fiery arrow pointed at the new threat!

 

Kerb was meant to be found. And his mentioning of Natrin's Barrow a case of Graendal's subtle compulsion, which we know is very difficult to detect.

 

So, you think, Rand has been pointed towards Graendal's lair. Natrin's Barrow makes sense, since we know Graendal's lair was in sight of the Misty Mountains (according to Sammael). But Sammael also says that her palace was widely known in Arad Doman. Rand directly contradicts this when he says the general populace of Arad Doman doesn't remember Natrin's Barrow, nor does the king, and the royal archivist had to search for four hours to locate it. No way will the royal archivist in one of the worlds foremost libraries take four hours to locate a fortress that is well known in his own country!

 

Another thing... Sammael guesses that everyone leaving Graendal's lair probably left subtly compelled into believing that she was a descendant of a family that had lived here since the Breaking. That Rodel Ituralde comes to visit "Lady Basene" certainly points to such an impression being created by Graendal.

 

Yet, Rand reports that his scouts heard from the villagers that someone new lives in Natrin's Barrow and that the old occupants were no longer there, and they never thought about the change. This doesn't add up to what kind of history Graendal would have set up for herself.

 

Therefore, Natrin's Barrow was never Graendal's lair! It was a palace full of innocent people that Rand was to destroy.

 

 

I found this argument fairly convincing.  The "Lady Basene" evidence could really go either way though.  

 

Everything Rand tries to do in this book ends up tragically wrong until the very last when he's cured.  I'm not sure that it makes sense for this one part to work out the way he wants it.

 

The actual text from Sammael's PoV LoC, pg. 173-174 says it all:

 

"It never ceased to amaze him that she chose to remain here in a palace well known across Arad Doman, with civil war and anarchy all around her. Of course, he did not think she had let any others of the Chosen know where she had established herself. That she trusted him with the knowledge made him wary. She liked her comforts, and never wanted to expend much effort to keep them, yet this palace was in sight of the Mountains of Mist, and considerable work was necessary to keep the turmoil away from her, to keep anyone from asking where the former owner had gone, along with his family and servants. Sammael would not be surprised if every Domani who visited here left believing that this land had been handed doen in her family since the breaking."

[bushleague]

To change the pace a little, was anyone thrown off by the huge edge the light seems to have after this book?  I was always of the opinion that the Shadow was dominating, but this book seemed to swing the other way.  Rand finally rids himself of madness for good and kills one (or maybe two) of the forsaken for good.  He also finally seems to have a purpose.  Egwene not only unites the White Tower but kills a good quarter of the BA and banishes the rest.

 

The only blow to the light was the failed truce with the Seanchan and a few hurt feelings because of Rand's destruction.