The Very Helpful Verin Theory

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your premise that Verin is only trying to do what she sees as best for Rand, I'm just pointing out that what she believes to be true is not necessarily true, ie. her belief that Cadsuane is trying to help Rand also.

 

Elaida believes that what she wants to do is what's "best" for Rand, too.  Everybody else who is involved with Rand has his or her own laundry list of what's "best" for him, too.

 

Almost all of it is mutually contradictory, and not everyone ( including Verin ) can be correct here.

 

So, my point is that whatever Verin may ultimately intend, only the unfolding of events will reveal whether her actions have really been helpful.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

That's my whole problem with Cadsuane - nothing she has done thus far shows me that she is intent on helping Rand in any way.  Everything she does is so totally misguided, and wide of the mark.  Unless her real intent is not her stated intent.

 

The best thing that Verin could have done to help Rand would be to have killed Cadsuane when she had the chance.

Wide of the mark? She and her henchmen saved him from Fain, she rescued him from Far Madding, and she saved him from the Forsaken at the Cleansing and from Semirhage at the meeting. What are you talking about?

[Balefire to da face!]

 

That's my whole problem with Cadsuane - nothing she has done thus far shows me that she is intent on helping Rand in any way.  Everything she does is so totally misguided, and wide of the mark.  Unless her real intent is not her stated intent.

 

The best thing that Verin could have done to help Rand would be to have killed Cadsuane when she had the chance.

Wide of the mark? She and her henchmen saved him from Fain, she rescued him from Far Madding, and she saved him from the Forsaken at the Cleansing and from Semirhage at the meeting. What are you talking about?

 

Exactly.

 

Here's the thing, the #1 problem of most Aes Sedai is that they want to dictate what Rand does. They want to control him. The problem with the AS(even Moiraine) has always been that they think they know better then Rand himself what he needs to do.

 

Rand is not the creator, Rand is not perfect, he doesn't have all the answers. But he alone should be the one deciding what he does, because he is the Dragon Reborn. And win, lose, or draw his decisions are the ones that are going to fulfill the prophecies.

 

What Cadsuane does differently is that she's not trying to make Rand's decisions for him. She's trying to make sure that the decisions he makes aren't the wrong ones(yes, Rand can make the wrong ones) or to make sure that his decisions don't get him killed. And so far, she's done a damn good job of it.

 

I've always found it strange that some people find Cadsuane to be as bad as other AS, or that she's arrogant or anything like that. Because in her own way I think she has shown Rand more respect then any other AS in the series. She doesn't play games or manipulate him anymore then Rand's own pride and arrogance have pretty much forced her to.

 

Maybe Cadsuanes' view of 'what is best for the boy' is something that rand might not see is best for him. I personally can't like her, whatever her intentions; shes a bully, she mean, shes like an ultra-Nynaeve, (and i dont like Nynaeve one bit.)

 

You know rereading the series I have noticed something.

 

How old are you Blackhoof? Just curious.

 

I remember when I was 17 and just started the series Nyn bugged the hell out of me. On subsequent rereads I have found more and more that Nyn is easily one of my favorite female characters. I think it's because to someone younger Cad's and Nyn's overbearing nature can grate on the nerves of someone who has parental figures like that. But as I've grown older, I've related much, much more to characters like Cads and Nyn. They are perfect examples of characters that are just trying to protect Rand, and sometimes that means protecting him from himself(and the further into the series we've gotten, the more Rand has required that...Dragon Reborn or not).

 

If nothing else, at least Cads and Nyn see Rand as more then just a tool to serve a purpose. Something you can't say about just about any other AS. Even Moiraine and Egwene with thier blue mindset didn't/don't really see a man first anymore.....

[Seven of Nine]

That's my whole problem with Cadsuane - nothing she has done thus far shows me that she is intent on helping Rand in any way.  Everything she does is so totally misguided, and wide of the mark.  Unless her real intent is not her stated intent.

 

The best thing that Verin could have done to help Rand would be to have killed Cadsuane when she had the chance.

Wide of the mark? She and her henchmen saved him from Fain, she rescued him from Far Madding, and she saved him from the Forsaken at the Cleansing and from Semirhage at the meeting. What are you talking about?

 

Exactly.

 

Here's the thing, the #1 problem of most Aes Sedai is that they want to dictate what Rand does. They want to control him. The problem with the AS(even Moiraine) has always been that they think they know better then Rand himself what he needs to do.

 

Rand is not the creator, Rand is not perfect, he doesn't have all the answers. But he alone should be the one deciding what he does, because he is the Dragon Reborn. And win, lose, or draw his decisions are the ones that are going to fulfill the prophecies.

 

What Cadsuane does differently is that she's not trying to make Rand's decisions for him. She's trying to make sure that the decisions he makes aren't the wrong ones(yes, Rand can make the wrong ones) or to make sure that his decisions don't get him killed. And so far, she's done a damn good job of it.

 

I've always found it strange that some people find Cadsuane to be as bad as other AS, or that she's arrogant or anything like that. Because in her own way I think she has shown Rand more respect then any other AS in the series. She doesn't play games or manipulate him anymore then Rand's own pride and arrogance have pretty much forced her to.

Some of my issue with Cadsuane is the AS arrogance. She decided that he was little more than a misbehaving child and needed to be put in his place. She doesn't get to know him or what he's been through; she makes that decision right up front upon first seeing him. It's the power tripping that all the AS seem to do (and our un oathed by new AS--Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne--are not better). Cadsuane gets better, imo, as she starts to get to know him a bit, and especially after Dumai's Wells when Min talks about what happened to him. I think that's when she really takes on the role of adviser and not bullying "teacher".

 

Verin sometimes comes across as looking after Rand's interests, but she was pretty mellow when Alanna bonded him against his will--something was dreadful if they are comparing it rape.

 

[Blackhoof]

 

Maybe Cadsuanes' view of 'what is best for the boy' is something that rand might not see is best for him. I personally can't like her, whatever her intentions; shes a bully, she mean, shes like an ultra-Nynaeve, (and i dont like Nynaeve one bit.)

 

You know rereading the series I have noticed something.

 

How old are you Blackhoof? Just curious.

 

I remember when I was 17 and just started the series Nyn bugged the hell out of me. On subsequent rereads I have found more and more that Nyn is easily one of my favorite female characters. I think it's because to someone younger Cad's and Nyn's overbearing nature can grate on the nerves of someone who has parental figures like that. But as I've grown older, I've related much, much more to characters like Cads and Nyn. They are perfect examples of characters that are just trying to protect Rand, and sometimes that means protecting him from himself(and the further into the series we've gotten, the more Rand has required that...Dragon Reborn or not).

 

If nothing else, at least Cads and Nyn see Rand as more then just a tool to serve a purpose. Something you can't say about just about any other AS. Even Moiraine and Egwene with thier blue mindset didn't/don't really see a man first anymore.....

 

I suppose you may be right. I'm 13 and i read the series first when i was 12, so i suppose your theory may be correct, and your right, nyn and cads are the only AS that see rand as a person and not some dangerous animal. But that doesn't change how annoying i find them, either.  ;)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Wide of the mark? She and her henchmen saved him from Fain, she rescued him from Far Madding, and she saved him from the Forsaken at the Cleansing and from Semirhage at the meeting. What are you talking about?

 

Cadsuane's done no more than Elza, and Elza is a Black as they come.  Preserving Rand now while planning to betray him later to serve the greater purposes of the Dark is still a possibility with Cadsuane.

[Charlz Guybon]

Wide of the mark? She and her henchmen saved him from Fain, she rescued him from Far Madding, and she saved him from the Forsaken at the Cleansing and from Semirhage at the meeting. What are you talking about?

 

Cadsuane's done no more than Elza, and Elza is a Black as they come.  Preserving Rand now while planning to betray him later to serve the greater purposes of the Dark is still a possibility with Cadsuane.

 

Except we've seen her point of view and everything about it suggests exactly the opposite.

[rygar]

I don't trust Cadsuane or Verin, and I know this is a stretch, but in the prequel Moraine says she thinks Cadsuane is black.  And then, remember when Egwene is being tested for accepted,Verin is the one who gave her the ring that caused the interference.  I think RJ is setting us up for both Verin and Cadsuane to be BA.

[Luckers]

Neither Verin nor Cadsuane is black. This is confirmed in POV.

[deathgate]

I like Lucker's theory as it explains anything Verin does that is ahrd gto explain. Go to the Two Rivers and stay after? Maybe the notes showed a dream and how important Bode and the other girls were. Can't explain how she finds Mat, Rand and Perrin? Well having a dream road map would let you know when and where. Egwene and Perrin might be able to do a lot of that with more training and it seems some of the wise ones do that very thing (Verin was a little unnerved when she first found out about them).

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Luckers, you mean its confirmed in points of view (POV) right? I only ask because i cant find anything concrete from either of them. Im not attempting to start a debate id just like to hear youre reasoning on it, because i cant find where either of them come right out and say anything.

 

One of my pet theories has always been cads is black. How she has survived so long has always bothered me, and i thought that the whole wilder in the black hills may have been some type of darkfriend training facility. Verin i was up in the air about, because i thought moraines note to rand to be wary of her was a little too obvious, yet it would sort of fit with my overall take on her character.

[Charlz Guybon]

Luckers, you mean its confirmed in points of view (POV) right? I only ask because i cant find anything concrete from either of them. Im not attempting to start a debate id just like to hear youre reasoning on it, because i cant find where either of them come right out and say anything.

 

One of my pet theories has always been cads is black. How she has survived so long has always bothered me, and i thought that the whole wilder in the black hills may have been some type of darkfriend training facility. Verin i was up in the air about, because i thought moraines note to rand to be wary of her was a little too obvious, yet it would sort of fit with my overall take on her character.

She's only 295, for an Aes Sedai of her power that's reasonable. Romanada is 270 isn't she?

[Luckers]

Luckers, you mean its confirmed in points of view (POV) right? I only ask because i cant find anything concrete from either of them. Im not attempting to start a debate id just like to hear youre reasoning on it, because i cant find where either of them come right out and say anything.

 

One of my pet theories has always been cads is black. How she has survived so long has always bothered me, and i thought that the whole wilder in the black hills may have been some type of darkfriend training facility. Verin i was up in the air about, because i thought moraines note to rand to be wary of her was a little too obvious, yet it would sort of fit with my overall take on her character.

 

For Cadsuane: "there was always the possibility that one or two might be Black Ajah. Once [Cadsuane] had thought herself on the point of rooting out the Black only to watch her quarry slip through her fingers like smoke, her bitterest failure except possibly for failing to learn what Caraline Damodred's cousin had been up to in the Borderlands until the knowledge was years too late to do any good. Now, even the Black Ajah seemed a diversion from what was truly important." [WH: 13, Wonderful News]

 

Verin's is proven by a number of POV's--her thinking that a captured forsaken would be useful in [WH: 35, With the Choedan Kal]. Her listening to Cadsuane talk about aiding Rand and then not poisoning her, and thinking that it was nice to be sure of Cadsuane at last in [WH: 25, Bonds] Her compelling Aes Sedai to aid Rand in, and her reaction to learning Katerine was free. And the fact that she dances around lying in her own head, as an oathbound Aes Sedai must do. Note the distinction between her thinking around the lie to justify it to herself, and Galina lying, whilst thinking how pleasent it is when the truth works anyway.[tPoD: Prologue, Deceptive Appearences].

[Farslayer82]

Wide of the mark? She and her henchmen saved him from Fain, she rescued him from Far Madding, and she saved him from the Forsaken at the Cleansing and from Semirhage at the meeting. What are you talking about?

 

Cadsuane's done no more than Elza, and Elza is a Black as they come.  Preserving Rand now while planning to betray him later to serve the greater purposes of the Dark is still a possibility with Cadsuane.

 

Lol. Some of these whacko theories the people on these forums have make me wonder if we read the same books.

[rygar]

 

Verin's is proven by a number of POV's--her thinking that a captured forsaken would be useful in [WH: 35, With the Choedan Kal]. Her listening to Cadsuane talk about aiding Rand and then not poisoning her, and thinking that it was nice to be sure of Cadsuane at last in [WH: 25, Bonds] Her compelling Aes Sedai to aid Rand in, and her reaction to learning Katerine was free. And the fact that she dances around lying in her own head, as an oathbound Aes Sedai must do. Note the distinction between her thinking around the lie to justify it to herself, and Galina lying, whilst thinking how pleasent it is when the truth works anyway.[tPoD: Prologue, Deceptive Appearences].

 

I don't think this unequivocally proves she isn't black.  Black Sisters and Dark Friends have both had thoughts about rising higher than a foresaken.

 

You could turn around the poison one too.  Aiding Rand?  Half the of the Dark Friends/Black Sisters want to aide rand by keeping him alive.  This could be no different.

 

Does an oathbound sister have to dance around the lie?  One could make an argument that the fact she has to dance is more proof she isn't bound by the oathrod?  How many times have other oathbound sisters danced around in a POV scenario?

 

I guess the ultimate question in my mind - would RJ give all these hints about Verin for no purpose?

[Luckers]

No, they have a purpose. It's just not that she is black.

[scott_swampy]

Good job rehashing it Luckers, I've always agreed with this theory.

 

I think Verin's currently going back for the horn, though how she plans on tracking down Mat I don't know, unless there's more about him in the prophecies.

 

Well Noal makes reference to a prophesy about Mat that she would probably know was him seeing as she asks Perrin when he is going too give up the axe for a hammer.

 

CoT CH28

 

“Fortune rides like the sun on high

With the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, lightning his eyes,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.”

 

I am sure she would have deduced that this is Mat and a reference to the Seanchan and if she hasn’t yet I am sure she will at some point. She knew Rand was the Dragon reborn before almost everyone else.

 

[Mr Ares]

Does an oathbound sister have to dance around the lie?

Yes. Black sisters can lie outright, only those bound by the Oaths have to dance round it, speaking half truths.

[Seven of Nine]

Does an oathbound sister have to dance around the lie?

Yes. Black sisters can lie outright, only those bound by the Oaths have to dance round it, speaking half truths.

The only thing the Blacks have to be cautious about is getting caught in an out and out lie.

[The Dirty Landry]

I could definitely see this theory being true.

 

I think that Verin recognized that Cadsuane is essentially trying to be a mother figure to Rand. You have to remember that Rand has never really had a mother figure that was in his life. Although at times she seems annoying, I recognize that she kind of disciplining him. Rand needs somebody like this as he has become extremely arrogant and whatnot as the series has gone further and further along. Granted a lot of factors have driven him to become this way, not least the manipulation of Aes Sedai. Cadsuane is the perfect person to bring him down to earth. Rand does not need the Sister approach (Egwene, Nynaeve), but he does need somebody to be a "mother" to him. Verin recognized this and that Cadsuane's only concern is the preservation of the world. Cadsuane I think doesn't really give a fig for the Tower right now, she realizes there are more important things.

[Nightstrike]

The only thing the Blacks have to be cautious about is getting caught in an out and out lie.

I think it's impressive that they've managed not to be caught. I don't know how many Black Ajah there are, but during the AoL they were roughly 50 percent. They have probably not been that common since then. Impressive none the less.

 

I like the theory that Luckers has presented. I also agree that Verin & Cadsuane walk in the Light. Much to look forward to in the last three books. :)

[Thorn]

 

Verin's is proven by a number of POV's--her thinking that a captured forsaken would be useful in [WH: 35, With the Choedan Kal]. Her listening to Cadsuane talk about aiding Rand and then not poisoning her, and thinking that it was nice to be sure of Cadsuane at last in [WH: 25, Bonds] Her compelling Aes Sedai to aid Rand in, and her reaction to learning Katerine was free. And the fact that she dances around lying in her own head, as an oathbound Aes Sedai must do. Note the distinction between her thinking around the lie to justify it to herself, and Galina lying, whilst thinking how pleasent it is when the truth works anyway.[tPoD: Prologue, Deceptive Appearences].

 

Just to note, I think all those make it very unlikely that Verin is a member of the Black Ajah, but they don't make it "proven." She could (much like the Black sister she Compels) just be trying to get Rand to the Last Battle.

 

Personally I think it unlikely (I think she's either a "dark brown," or a former BA member who managed to wriggle out somehow). But it's still technically possible for Verin to be a Black Ajah member, just very unlikely.

[Seven of Nine]

Personally I think it unlikely (I think she's either a "dark brown," or a former BA member who managed to wriggle out somehow). But it's still technically possible for Verin to be a Black Ajah member, just very unlikely.

Interesting idea, Thorn. How would one wriggle out of that kind of oath?

 

*ponders*

[Thorn]

Personally I think it unlikely (I think she's either a "dark brown," or a former BA member who managed to wriggle out somehow). But it's still technically possible for Verin to be a Black Ajah member, just very unlikely.

Interesting idea, Thorn. How would one wriggle out of that kind of oath?

 

*ponders*

 

Well, it depends on how the Black Ajah are bound. If they're bound with the Oath Rod, then she could presumably

 

1) Use the oath rod to free herself of the oaths (presuming she'd figured that one out)

 

2) Kill everyone left in the Black Ajah who knew she was a Black Ajah member.

 

 

 

Beyond that, I don't really know. But it's presumably possible to renounce the BA -- after all, "no one can walk so long in the darkness that they cannot come to the Light," etc. etc. Presumably, the hard part about renouncing the BA isn't the oath; it's 1) the sort of people who join the BA aren't going to be the sort of people who renounce it, and 2) the rest of the BA is likely to kill you very dead just for trying.  Again, I'm not saying this is a likely scenario, just a theoretically possible one.

[Mablir Dorlig]

Personally I think it unlikely (I think she's either a "dark brown," or a former BA member who managed to wriggle out somehow). But it's still technically possible for Verin to be a Black Ajah member, just very unlikely.

Interesting idea, Thorn. How would one wriggle out of that kind of oath?

 

*ponders*

 

Well, it depends on how the Black Ajah are bound. If they're bound with the Oath Rod, then she could presumably

 

1) Use the oath rod to free herself of the oaths (presuming she'd figured that one out)

 

2) Kill everyone left in the Black Ajah who knew she was a Black Ajah member.

 

 

 

Beyond that, I don't really know. But it's presumably possible to renounce the BA -- after all, "no one can walk so long in the darkness that they cannot come to the Light," etc. etc. Presumably, the hard part about renouncing the BA isn't the oath; it's 1) the sort of people who join the BA aren't going to be the sort of people who renounce it, and 2) the rest of the BA is likely to kill you very dead just for trying.  Again, I'm not saying this is a likely scenario, just a theoretically possible one.

 

Not sure why she'ld have to to do #2 - wouldn't it be best for her to retain contact with her former comrades (if she was BA which I'm not sure off)

 

Here's a thought what if Verin had used the ring ter'angreal to enter Tel'Aran'Rhiod and had, while there, had the three oaths removed either through some action of her own or by accident - this removal would apply when she returned from TAR and she would be free of the three oaths, but would have to appear to be bound by them for her own safety