The Thread Previously Known As (Something Else) (Chapter 1 spoiler)

[Corvinus]

Ok, first of all I am not going to read all the pages on this thread. So if the sword has been confirmed to be Justice, or LTT's sword, or whatever, then good. But here is my original opinion on what the sword is:

 

If you remember the angreal Rand carried for a while and then lost (probably stolen by Taim) which is in the shape of a fat little man that holds a sword. I think this sword is a life size real replica of the sword held by the fat little man. Which means the sword in from AoL, so it could be LTT's sword, or someone else's (Demandred)

[dmanmiller34]

I will not divulge who it was, to prevent them being inundated with PMs and emails for more details.  But it is indeed someone who has read the manuscript in full.  They told me that it was ok for me to let you guys know the tidbit about Justice.

 

:)

I am kind of sad that I found this out... When i saw the spoilers I thought they were only spoilers for epople who had not read the prolouge and Ch1 and Ch2. I never dreamed that there would be REAL spoilers in here for those us us who had not read the entire book. I think I'll stay away from the forums for a while incase anymore Actual spoilers leak out. Farewell for a few weeks. :(

[wconn1979]

I will not divulge who it was, to prevent them being inundated with PMs and emails for more details.  But it is indeed someone who has read the manuscript in full.  They told me that it was ok for me to let you guys know the tidbit about Justice.

 

:)

I am kind of sad that I found this out... When i saw the spoilers I thought they were only spoilers for epople who had not read the prolouge and Ch1 and Ch2. I never dreamed that there would be REAL spoilers in here for those us us who had not read the entire book. I think I'll stay away from the forums for a while incase anymore Actual spoilers leak out. Farewell for a few weeks. :(

 

I am really interested in how getting confirmation that the sword is justice will in anyway take away from your reading of the book.  Some people over react to the smallest things but I will cut off now before I go on a rant about such things. 

[Aagaard]

Maybe the Seanchan prophesies are corupted, but so far we have informations about mat and Perrin from them, not from mainland-randland prophesies. The Wolf King wearing a hammer and the Fox startling the ravens is part of the Seanchan prophesies. Why/how would this be part of Ishy's meddling.'

 

I believe too that Ishy did meddle with the prophesies, but I don't believe that the ones in Randland are much better. a couple of millenia can do that to a myth.

 

And the mention of the Wolf King and the Fox seems very likely to be parts of the original prophesies so at least some of the Seanchan's must still be accurate.

[Luckers]

Maybe the Seanchan prophesies are corupted, but so far we have informations about mat and Perrin from them, not from mainland-randland prophesies. The Wolf King wearing a hammer and the Fox startling the ravens is part of the Seanchan prophesies. Why/how would this be part of Ishy's meddling.'

 

Actually the bit about Mat is stated by Noal, and we know that the Randland Karaetheon Cycle contains the passage about the Wolf King--Verin references it in tSR.

 

The difference between the Randland version of the Karetheon Cycle and the Seanchan version is the reference to Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne--and besides, that version, the version that is different, was said to be brought BY Luthair FROM Randland. The Seanchan man states that the original prophecies in Seanchan were akin to those in Randland--containing no mention of Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne.

[Aagaard]

Maybe the Seanchan prophesies are corupted, but so far we have informations about mat and Perrin from them, not from mainland-randland prophesies. The Wolf King wearing a hammer and the Fox startling the ravens is part of the Seanchan prophesies. Why/how would this be part of Ishy's meddling.'

 

Actually the bit about Mat is stated by Noal, and we know that the Randland Karaetheon Cycle contains the passage about the Wolf King--Verin references it in tSR.

 

The difference between the Randland version of the Karetheon Cycle and the Seanchan version is the reference to Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne--and besides, that version, the version that is different, was said to be brought BY Luthair FROM Randland. The Seanchan man states that the original prophecies in Seanchan were akin to those in Randland--containing no mention of Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne.

 

Oh yeah, forgot about the part with Verin asking him to start wearing a hammer. But still seems to me that a lot of the prophesies are unknown to most of the people, even though they should fill a lot in their minds with TG coming... For instance Moiraine never seems to think that they are mentioned in the prophesies. - Please days go quicker - I'm impatient and can't concentrate on my studies

[NetSlider]

What if it is a fat little man's angreal sword? It's crazy, but who knows...

[Raezold]

What if it is a fat little man's angreal sword? It's crazy, but who knows...

 

Well, that's one way to show you didn't read the entire thread  :-X

[NetSlider]

Sorry, guys, didn't mean to come out ignorant (light, I even started a new post with this thing, but will remove it now). You caught me red handed  :-[. I read this post when it was originally posted but now seeing that its another 15 pages of posts to read I took a short cut. I did realize that it was probably mentioned already...cough, cough...I'll move on. But still, it's amazing that I'm not the only one who is going crazy about things like this. Two cheers to WoT people!!!

[Ticondrius]

There's been a lot of posts in this topic, so to be fair, I only made it about 5 pages in before I felt the need to post.

 

First, I've been a lurker for years.  It took TGS to get me to finally register and decloak.

 

I think the sword is Justice.  The fact that the scabbard is decorated with dragons is inconsequential.  Scabbards are usually made of wood, leather, cork...and other materials that easily decompose when buried.  Usually only metal trimmings or belt fastenings are left after a few "centuries".  So, if this sword was buried since Hawkwing's time, there's little chance the original scabbard survived.  I see nowhere in WoT that references a power-wrought scabbard.  :D

 

(character limit per post is way too short...)

[Ticondrius]

Also, let's deal with the Great Sword issue.  The great sword Justice.  Any sword can be great.  It can mean that the sword is famous rather than a true "Great Sword".  There have been other mentioning of the fact that there is canonical evidence that the blade is one handed in this topic, so I'll refrain from reposting everything.  Though, it is possible to hip-sheath a great sword, you just have to know how to draw it.  However, they are so heavy I'd never consider trying to wield one single handed.

 

I admit, at first I too thought it was LTT's sword, but then right after it said it was from Rand's own memories.  However, do we all recall the period of time right after he became He Who Comes With The Dawn?  He'd spout phrases and knowledge that were certainly not his, such as being "buried in the Can Breat."  While his ability to recognize difference between his memory and LTT's, he's also in the process of fusing with Moridin as well.  Who's to say he really isn't remembering it as his own memory, but instead a memory from one of the other two?

[Luckers]

Once again this issue is answered definitively on page 7 or 8.

[Mr.Big]

I hope that the sword "Justice" is used as a way for Rand to gain prestige and respect from Tuon and the Seanchan when they are trying to negotiate a treaty.

As far as the prophecies go,I think both versions can easily be fulfilled if taken literally.Rand could simply kneel before Tuon as a show of respect and a way to pragmatically fulfill that prophecy without him being under her control.Also when they sign a treaty,this would essentially bind Tuon/Seanchan to Rand under the auspices of a contract. 

[kuhn101]

First off I don,t know why AH would have a scabbard with a dragon on it. I'm more inclined to think that Rand saw that sword and its meaning behind the twisted doorframe in dook 4.

[Luckers]

It's been suggested that Hawkwing took Justice from Guire Amalasan--it was his first major victory, after all.

[Copperfield]

Will someone lock this thread?

[Luckers]

As long as people are still interested in discussing the issue, and there is no rudeness, we do not lock threads.

 

Also, generally speaking, when a mod is the last person to actively engage in a conversation, they're usually not willing to close it. It stinks of hubris.

 

That'd be a no on two levels on the locking of this thread. If you have no interest in it, don't enter it.

[scott_swampy]

The thread is not in need of locking, so thanks for not Luckers. But people just need to follow the edict and read the thread, then post. Really not that hard ;). Although it is painfull when you have theories to tell on page 3 of an 18 page thread. But the main issue, of what is the sword, has been confirmed what I would like to know is who gave it to him?

[DemandredFO]

I think the reason Moraine and other AS, except Verin, miss the parts of the prophecies about Mat and Perrin is that they are focused on the dragon.  The neglect to understand what it means that Rand had two taveren with.  Moraine starts to realize that they're important but time kind of ran out.

[jmd]

This might not be the best thread to post this in....but it has been talked about in this thread...so I will proceed.

 

Regarding the corrupted Seanchan prophecies....I am currently re-reading TSR and at the end of Chapter 38 Hidden Faces Egeanins POV states "Women who could channel were dangerous animals rather than people. It had been they who Broke the World...That was what she had been taught, what had been taught in Seanchan for a thousand years. Strange that that seemed not to have happened here."

 

So not only have the prophecies been corrupted...which could have been corrupted through irpretation anyways, but concrete history has been corrupted too. I thought that was very interesting when I read it and thought I would share it. Again, if it is not the right thread...my apologies.

[EEK a Trolloc]

I am currently re-reading TSR and at the end of Chapter 38 Hidden Faces Egeanins POV states "Women who could channel were dangerous animals rather than people. It had been they who Broke the World...That was what she had been taught, what had been taught in Seanchan for a thousand years. Strange that that seemed not to have happened here."

 

So not only have the prophecies been corrupted...which could have been corrupted through irpretation anyways, but concrete history has been corrupted too. I thought that was very interesting when I read it and thought I would share it. Again, if it is not the right thread...my apologies.

 

Thanks! This is an interesting thought Egeanin had. I can't believe I've missed it over and over again. I always thought that Ishamael had a hand in sending the corrupted Prophecies to Seanchan. It would be very easy for him to have a hand in corrupting history as well since Hawkwings people would already be predisposed to hate Aes Sedai.

[Vassili]

Ishamael didn't do that: time did. Even in randland many people beleive that female Aes Sedai took part in the breaking. Remember tEotW? Rand himself thought women had helped break the world, and he was hardly the first.

 

LTT saved the world from the DO. 3000 years later and most common folk think he opened the DO's prison. Time changes things, or at least their perception.

 

 

[jmd]

Rand himself thought women had helped break the world, and he was hardly the first.

 

 

 

True, but how I read into it (and maybe too deeply) is that every Seanchan was taught it was only women...while in Randland some people thought, however mistakenly,it was women and men together.

 

Another thing is that this had been taught in Seanchan for only the last 1000 years...when Hawkings sons would have sailed overseas...so what about those who were already on Seanchan? Did they have a different history? Did they even know about the Breaking in the prior 2000 years? I know we might never get answers to these, but it makes for interesting speculations :)