two river rebellion

[Thorum]

It is a lot easier to handle a single nation, than three separate entities.

Why would he still be holding on to Ghealdan after TG?

 

Because Alliandre will ask nicely.

 

Saldaea can keep its name. Were talking about the over all name of the greater kingdom.

Indeed. Saldaea. It can homogenise under that name. If they try and forge it into one nation, that is. If they keep them separate, then there is no reason for a name for the greater kingdom.

Saldaea = king; Two Rivers = lord; Ghealdan = something higher than Queen. So, in feodal logics, the combination would be called Ghealdan.

 

To rebel is to act against the established authority.

If he is refusing to kneel, that is exactly what he is doing.

The key word is "established".

 

 

Also, you keep on asuming Elayne will have a better army than Perrin. She won't. Perrin's army will be way grander (not even counting the wolves). Which will also stop Elayne from trying something.

[Majsju]

It is a lot easier to handle a single nation, than three separate entities.

Why would he still be holding on to Ghealdan after TG?

 

Because...

Under the Light, I, Alliandre Maritha Kigarin, pledge my fealty and service to Lord Perrin Aybara of the Two Rivers, now and for all time, save that he chooses to release me of his own will. My lands and throne are his, and I yield them to his hand. So do I swear.

Under the Light, I do accept your pledge and will defend and protect you and yours through battles wrack and winters blast and all that time may bring. The lands and throne of Ghealdan, I give to you as my faithful vassal. Under the Light, I do accept...

No mention of TG in this pledge. Alliandre is quite clear that this holds until Perrin chooses to release her, something Perrin is honourbound to not do as long as Ghealdan is in need of his protection. And a quick look at the map does tell us that there will still be a threat to Ghealdan once the dust settles after TG.

 

[Thorum]

How the heck did you remember that?

[Majsju]

Remember what, the quotes? I did not, but I remember roughly where pretty much everything is in the books, and I have all books pretty much within arms reach. Except for TEOTW, I have a bad habit of giving away all my copies to people I think should start reading WOT ;D

[Luckers]

Haha. Me. To. I have two copies of the eye of the world though, so it's ok.

 

Literally I leant it out, got it back. Then got it back from someone else. I've no idea which was originally mine.

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 01:23:08 AM

No one said the Two Rivers was hard to farm.

 

It's said in EotW that that's the reason for the stubborness of TR folk - those who aren't stubborn, leave. Wolves and weather were mentioned, and the stony soil of the TR. It's a tough place to make a living, and as they make their livings as farmers, it's a tough place to farm.

 

You got quotes for that, because all I remember is that it's stated that they're stubborn folk and if hardship strikes they might complain but they'll roll up their sleeves and get done what needs to be done.

 

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Their primary exports are wool and tabac because shipping produce would be pointless--it'd all go off before it reached any markets worth maintaining.

 

The why is less important than that they do not have the food supplies needed.

 

I addressed that. "There will be a year before the produce anything worthwhile, its true (though they do have significant livestock), but famine's only going to support Perrin gaining hold since during that year Elayne won't be able to do anything about the famine in the west anyway. After a year of hardship and empty bellies food out of the Two Rivers will do the same thing for Perrin as food out of Tear did for Rand in Illian."

 

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Actually it was Perrin's savy-ness that was the issue. Your comment to which that was a reply was about Perrin's realisation.

 

This point seems to have drifted somewhat. Andor forced a border change without realising, Andor did know what they were doing and thus this is different to Perrin's situation, Perrin won't realise, it doesn't matter if Perrin doesn't realise because what matters is whether Elayne realises. Andor forced a border change, Perrin won't be. He won't want to keep this land. Elayne will realise the result of inaction will be losing it, and thus she will act. How savvy Perrin is not at issue. He will act regardless of any potential border change, and he has no desire to change the border. His actions in this regard will only change the border if he makes it happen. He has no reason to. Therefore, how savvy Elayne is comes into question - if she perceives a border change as being likely. If she does, she has reason to act against Perrin.

 

Actually you drifted. My points on all of these things have remained quite constant.

 

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Saldaea can keep its name. Were talking about the over all name of the greater kingdom.

 

Indeed. Saldaea. It can homogenise under that name. If they try and forge it into one nation, that is. If they keep them separate, then there is no reason for a name for the greater kingdom.

 

I addressed that. And there will be a name, sooner or later. That's human nature. Won't be Saldaea though.

 

Perrin, feeding her subjects, killing bandits, and doing so in his own name, laying claim to her lands in his own name, refusing to kneel to her, being in rebellion against her?

 

My scenario involves him very much NOT laying claim to her land in his own name, nor being in rebellion to her. Sorry.

 

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making Perrin bow to her would be something she'd want, but knowing him she'll set it on the backburner for a later date because she will have several issues which are SIGNIFICANTLY more important.

 

She might put aside making him bow, but she will not leave the situation there unaddressed, not to the extent required for the border change you propose.

 

That will be too late. They will be loyal to him by the end of the second year (simply from food) and long before she feels the need to do something about it. That will force the issue for both of them, and that will be that. New nation.

 

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He is not her enemy in Andoran internal affairs, he simply won't subject himself to her.

 

Which is what makes him her enemy.

 

Disengenuous and dissapointing Ares. That comment continued "In a vacuum that would have meant he was her enemy since she is a monarch and he lives within land nominally claimed by her throne, however its not a vacuum and he IS her ally in the big stuff. TG and the leading of the Light."

 

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To rebel is to act against the established authority.

 

If he is refusing to kneel, that is exactly what he is doing.

 

Actually no it's not. There is no 'action', but rather the lack of action. There is a distinction in that, and it is that distinction that makes the difference between her deeming him threatening and her deeming him 'irritating but to be set right later when I have the time'.

 

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They will be forced to fight alongside each other, and their individual sense of integrity will impress each other.

 

If respecting someone was enough to stop them fighting, we wouldn't be having this argument. People can respectfully disagree, even respect an enemy. They will be enemies with respect for the other's integrity.

 

Actually you serve my point though--were my family starving or criminals stealing my television we would not be arguing--you'd be sitting at your computer and I'd be grabbing a knife, calling the cops, and in all honsety probably locking myself in the bathroom. I never suggested Elayne would like what Perrin was doing, nor even that she wouldn't have been planning to deal with it eventually. I simply say that she will set it aside in favour of more important matters, more immediate matters.

 

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No, that's generally called an 'alliance', though in these specific circumstances perhaps 'syncronisation' would serve better.

 

Or amalgamation.

 

I like syncronisation because of the cross-cultural implications, but that may just be a result of the Australian multi-cultural heritage (thats been a big 'politically correct' thing for the last twenty years, and I grew up on the concept, though like all such things its not really worked that well in practice--cronulla riots anyone?). Amalgamation works--certainly in the long run.

 

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It was thrust on him, and he will impress that on her.

 

And if he does, she has reason to stop her other subjects thrusting yet more titles on him. If her (well, Morgase) doing nothing in the TR while he did something lost her the region, then not doing something in other regions while he does merely spreads the problem. She might accept that it will be recoverable in the long term, but that doesn't mean she still has good reason to nip it in the bud, stop it before it gets out of hand. Much easier to act at an early stage.

 

Actually my view of events is that it will be when she finally gets around to asserting herself in the west that this will become formal. Before that he'll just be 'doing what needs to be done', but my guess is the people will react badly to the women who 'abandoned them blah blah blah' and shout Lord Perrin's name from the rooftops. By the time either realises whats happened they'll be at the brink of war--at which time both will back down because the worlds still recovering.

 

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Perhaps they'll say 'silly Ares, taking on Padraic_Seebrr'.

 

:p

They might, but only if they're currently saying "silly Luckers, taking on Ares". If they're currently saying "silly Ares", then it should be "silly Padraic_Seebrr". Passing the torch, you see. Of course, even when doing very sensible things I'm silly, but in a very dignified way.

 

That'd be your age. Me. I'm just plain silly, and I love it.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Woah! Luckers VS Ares, two of the big dogs fighting to the end! I feel like I should be paying for tickets!

Just think, if you put in the effort, one day people might look up and say, "Woah! Padraic_Seebrr VS Mr Ares, a true clash of the titans!"

 

I feel as if I'm already halfway there :P.

[Perrin 187]

You guys are making alot assumptions about whats to come, famine in western andor, that there won't be another breaking, that Elayne, Alliandre, Faile, survive as well as a bunch of other people.

 

The bickering is pretty pointless since the two of you are making alot different assumptions and scenarios.

 

What if Rand dies and his alliance falls apart. The one guy powerful enough to stop Perrin and Elayne from fighting is gone. My point is with Rand in the equation war is unlikely, with him out it is more likely Perrin and Elayne will fight.

 

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

You guys are making alot assumptions about whats to come, famine in western andor, that there won't be another breaking, that Elayne, Alliandre, Faile, survive as well as a bunch of other people.

 

The bickering is pretty pointless since the two of you are making alot different assumptions and scenarios.

 

What if Rand dies and his alliance falls apart. The one guy powerful enough to stop Perrin and Elayne from fighting is gone. My point is with Rand in the equation war is unlikely, with him out it is more likely Perrin and Elayne will fight.

 

 

 

Well really everything we do on this site is speculation and assumptions. We really don't know anything unless its clearly stated, but some things we just have to infer on our own. Ex: We all "know" Graendal killed Asmodean, but since its not stated in the books we have to use evidence to infer that it was Graendal. So we are not 100% sure its Graendal, since it is not stated in the books or quotes, but it is 99.9% sure. Also, quit being such a downer.

[Luckers]

You guys are making alot assumptions about whats to come, famine in western andor, that there won't be another breaking, that Elayne, Alliandre, Faile, survive as well as a bunch of other people.

 

The famine is already in play--currently the rot is just causing food poisoning, but the next season results of such speedy decomposition is worldwide famine. Min even foresees this.

 

As for a breaking--one RJ stated a story with Mat and Tuon was supposed to occur ten years after the last book, so political cohesion does apparently survive, and not post-breaking level either. Two, this ain't aSoIaF. RJ doesn't destroy his people.

 

As for the bit about people dying. On Faile, Perrin gets the Broken Crown, so she doesn't die before then. Elayne is safe because of her kids (although that attitude did get Sareitha and Vandene killed so i don't condone it at all). Alliandre COULD die, but i rather suspect that Arganda will be fairly excessive in protecting her so we have at least some basis to suggest she'll not fall dead in the next ten seconds.

 

Did you have any other 'well you don't know it therefore...' comments to make? It hasn't really worked for the Catholic Church but I'm willing to play.

 

What if Rand dies and his alliance falls apart. The one guy powerful enough to stop Perrin and Elayne from fighting is gone. My point is with Rand in the equation war is unlikely, with him out it is more likely Perrin and Elayne will fight.

 

Rand survives his death, that is certain. But i doubt he will have a roll in this. And yes, Elayne and Perrin will probably fight in the long run--at the very least they'd have a spat over the issue. Their strength is fairly equal though, and given both will have suffered losses i doubt it will go to real war. Though, to be fair, it's possible.

 

 

[mb]

It is a lot easier to handle a single nation, than three separate entities.

Like I posted before, Perrin would give up claim of Two Rivers and Ghealdan; and do whatever it takes to make sure that they have a leader.  Probably also release people of their oaths.  All this probably right after Tarmon Gaidon if not sooner.

The duties to the people would probably end when Tarmon Gaidon is over.

 

A single nation may be easier, but generally when it is relatively small.  The bigger the land, the more people required to hold it; of which there might not be enough directly after Tarmon Gaidon.

 

You said that the land would be gained through assimilation over the years, yet the Seanchan would probably get the land alot quicker.

Even if the land is gained before the Seanchan could take it, holding it long would be improbable since the Seanchan would be able to conquer it quickly.

Or even if they (the people holding the land) are able to hold the land, there would always be governmental issues for Perrin and for his descendants to deal with.

 

[Majsju]

It is a lot easier to handle a single nation, than three separate entities.

Like I posted before, Perrin would give up claim of Two Rivers and Ghealdan; and do whatever it takes to make sure that they have a leader.  Probably also release people of their oaths.  All this probably right after Tarmon Gaidon if not sooner.

The duties to the people would probably end when Tarmon Gaidon is over.

 

A single nation may be easier, but generally when it is relatively small.  The bigger the land, the more people required to hold it; of which there might not be enough directly after Tarmon Gaidon.

 

You said that the land would be gained through assimilation over the years, yet the Seanchan would probably get the land alot quicker.

Even if the land is gained before the Seanchan could take it, holding it long would be improbable since the Seanchan would be able to conquer it quickly.

Or even if they (the people holding the land) are able to hold the land, there would always be governmental issues for Perrin and for his descendants to deal with.

 

 

So to summarise, you are saying that Perrin would surrender the Two Rivers - the place where he grew up, and Ghealdan, the nation he has sworn to protect, so that the Seanchan can swoop in and conquer them instead?

 

Does that really sound like Perrin to you? I mean, really?

[Vambram]

It is a lot easier to handle a single nation, than three separate entities.

Like I posted before, Perrin would give up claim of Two Rivers and Ghealdan; and do whatever it takes to make sure that they have a leader.  Probably also release people of their oaths.  All this probably right after Tarmon Gaidon if not sooner.

The duties to the people would probably end when Tarmon Gaidon is over.

 

A single nation may be easier, but generally when it is relatively small.  The bigger the land, the more people required to hold it; of which there might not be enough directly after Tarmon Gaidon.

 

You said that the land would be gained through assimilation over the years, yet the Seanchan would probably get the land alot quicker.

Even if the land is gained before the Seanchan could take it, holding it long would be improbable since the Seanchan would be able to conquer it quickly.

Or even if they (the people holding the land) are able to hold the land, there would always be governmental issues for Perrin and for his descendants to deal with.

 

 

This is making an assumption that the Seanchan, with Tuon and Mat, will be able to, or even want to, continue their conquest of Randland after Tarmon Gaidon. In my opinion, I believe that this conquest by the Seanchan shall not continue after Tarmon Gaidon.

[Mr Ares]

Because Alliandre will ask nicely.

If she asks nicely, he'll let her go.

 

Saldaea = king; Two Rivers = lord; Ghealdan = something higher than Queen. So, in feodal logics, the combination would be called Ghealdan.

No, in "feudal logics" the Queen of Ghealdan kneels to the King of Saldaea, making them the junior partner, not an alliance of equals.

 

Also, you keep on asuming Elayne will have a better army than Perrin. She won't.

No I don't. And I like your unsupported assumption there.

 

It is a lot easier to handle a single nation, than three separate entities.

Why would he still be holding on to Ghealdan after TG?

 

Because...

Under the Light, I, Alliandre Maritha Kigarin, pledge my fealty and service to Lord Perrin Aybara of the Two Rivers, now and for all time, save that he chooses to release me of his own will. My lands and throne are his, and I yield them to his hand. So do I swear.

Under the Light, I do accept your pledge and will defend and protect you and yours through battles wrack and winters blast and all that time may bring. The lands and throne of Ghealdan, I give to you as my faithful vassal. Under the Light, I do accept...

No mention of TG in this pledge. Alliandre is quite clear that this holds until Perrin chooses to release her, something Perrin is honourbound to not do as long as Ghealdan is in need of his protection. And a quick look at the map does tell us that there will still be a threat to Ghealdan once the dust settles after TG.

Alliandre currently needs Perrin, and Perrin needs Ghealdan. After TG, he won't need them, but he won't just ditch them because he will feel it's his duty to help get them back on their feet. But,once that has happened, they won't need him. So why would he refuse to let them go if they asked? He's not going to leave them in the lurch, but he is not going to rule them indefinitely. It's a short term arrangement. Perrin is not an imperialist, and he would need to be for him to hold on to it long term,  as more than just helping them out when they needed it.

 

You got quotes for that, because all I remember is that it's stated that they're stubborn folk and if hardship strikes they might complain but they'll roll up their sleeves and get done what needs to be done.

"People who had to watch the hail beat their crops or the wolves take their lambs, and start over, no matter how many years it happened, did not give up easily. Most of those who did were long since gone." "...as if there weren't rocks everywhere in the Two Rivers." Both EotW 1, and chapter 49 has a reference to the "stubborn, stony soil of the Two Rivers." Hardship strikes frequently, hence those who don't role up their sleeves and get on with it when it does move on. The stubbornness comes from it being a hard place where they needed to be stubborn in order to survive. The wolves might be gone now, but the weather isn't, nor are the stones.

 

I addressed that.

I know you did. But neither Perrin nor Elayne is in a position to combat famine, that's the point. And when people are producing crops again, whose to say they will need Perrin's, when they have their own? Or Elayne could buy it in from elsewhere. In fact, the best placed people to combat the famine are the AS and Asha'man, given they can Travel - and thus distribute food over a wider area in a shorter time than non-channelers. If Elayne can win either of those groups on side - she's already AS, and will need to come to an arrangement with the Asha'man anyway - then she has resources to combat the famine Perrin doesn't. So currently neither can feed them, and after wards they both can.

 

Actually you drifted.

Hence your confusion as to what was being talked about.

 

My scenario involves him very much NOT laying claim to her land in his own name, nor being in rebellion to her. Sorry.

Perrin is acting in his own name, not on behlaf of a higher authority. That's why they are coming to him. Both the people and Elayne will see that. And he will be laying claim to her land, eventually.

 

That will be too late. They will be loyal to him by the end of the second year

She won't leave it that long.

 

That comment continued

I know, but that changes nothing. With regards to TG, they are allies, but once that is over and done with they are not united by a common enemy, they are divided. Thus, he is her enemy.

 

Actually no it's not. There is no 'action', but rather the lack of action. There is a distinction in that,

And that distinction is irrelevant. If she asks him to kneel and he refuses, he is setting himself against her. Which makes him a rebel. And she will ask him to kneel once they meet. TG, if not before.

 

Actually you serve my point though--were my family starving or criminals stealing my television we would not be arguing--you'd be sitting at your computer and I'd be grabbing a knife, calling the cops, and in all honsety probably locking myself in the bathroom. I never suggested Elayne would like what Perrin was doing, nor even that she wouldn't have been planning to deal with it eventually. I simply say that she will set it aside in favour of more important matters, more immediate matters.

And I suggested that there will not be so many more immediate, more important matters that she will be unable to address this until the moment has passed. She will respect Perrin's integrity, but will still move to act against him, whether through military force or otherwise - other options are perhaps more likely, but still, she will act. Now, if Elayne can ally with Perrin, so they are both seen to help through the times of famine, then it diminishes the impact of Perrin's actions, thus reducing the chance of these areas breaking away. I have suggested this before. Perrin is not such a glory hound that he woould refuse her assistance, is he? Perrin says, "I must feed these starving people", and Elayne says "I'll help." Perrin says, "we must catch these bandits", and Elayne says "I'll help." And people see her helping, see the Queen's representatives helping, then they won't jump ship.

 

Before that he'll just be 'doing what needs to be done',

And so will she.

 

That'd be your age. Me. I'm just plain silly, and I love it.

Your youth and inexperience means you are unable to combine these things. Being silly is easy enough, as is being dignified. Being both together, that's the hard part.

 

You guys are making alot assumptions about whats to come, famine in western andor, that there won't be another breaking, that Elayne, Alliandre, Faile, survive as well as a bunch of other people.

Well, that is sort of the point of the topic. Our guesses about what is to come, and why we each tthink them more likely than the other guy's.

 

What if Rand dies and his alliance falls apart. The one guy powerful enough to stop Perrin and Elayne from fighting is gone.

Actually, Rand's death need not have any particular relevance. Luckers thinks that by the time Elayne acts, it will be too late and thus she will back down from an unwinnable war, and I think it more likely she will act before the moment of crisis, and thus the spectre of war need not rear its head in the first place. After all, Perrin is hardly going to fight to prevent Elayne from helping her subjects, is he? Rand might be able to act to prevent war, but even if he's not there it needn't come to that. A better argument about the pointlessness of continuing would be that by this point we have probably become so entenched in our positions, we are unlikely to make any significant headway, and therefore it would make more sense to agree to disagree.

 

This is making an assumption that the Seanchan, with Tuon and Mat, will be able to, or even want to, continue their conquest of Randland after Tarmon Gaidon. In my opinion, I believe that this conquest by the Seanchan shall not continue after Tarmon Gaidon.

I agree, a long term truce with the Seanchan is most likely.

[mb]

So to summarise, you are saying that Perrin would surrender the Two Rivers - the place where he grew up, and Ghealdan, the nation he has sworn to protect, so that the Seanchan can swoop in and conquer them instead?

Not exactly surrender.  I told that he would make sure they have a leader.  He would probably also make sure that they would have whatever protection necessary.

 

Also, very few rulers (if any) would be able to handle a nation the size of Saldaea though Ghealdan.  Their descendants also being able to handle the land would be rare; and rarer still with each successive generation.

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Maybe if it wasn't hereditary rule, and a high council of lords decide who the king would be when the prior king dies. Not like the Council of Nine in Illian though, the only power they would have with the central government would be choosing the king when the last one dies.

[Majsju]

 

Not exactly surrender.  I told that he would make sure they have a leader.  He would probably also make sure that they would have whatever protection necessary.

 

So, he would hand over the political power to a person of his chosing, and leave a military force behind to ensure the nations protection?

Hmm, that seems strangely familiar for some reason...And not in a good way.

 

Also, very few rulers (if any) would be able to handle a nation the size of Saldaea though Ghealdan.  Their descendants also being able to handle the land would be rare; and rarer still with each successive generation.

 

 

Quite a claim. Got any facts to back it up with? Preferebly start with why Perrin would decide to rule the entire nation all by himself, instead of appointing someone to govern everyday business for the Two Rivers, and let Alliandre govern everyday business in Ghealdan, allowing Perrin and Faile to focus on the big picture.

A suggestion, look up the difference between England and the UK...

 

Alliandre currently needs Perrin, and Perrin needs Ghealdan. After TG, he won't need them, but he won't just ditch them because he will feel it's his duty to help get them back on their feet. But,once that has happened, they won't need him. So why would he refuse to let them go if they asked? He's not going to leave them in the lurch, but he is not going to rule them indefinitely. It's a short term arrangement. Perrin is not an imperialist, and he would need to be for him to hold on to it long term,  as more than just helping them out when they needed it.

 

The longer Perrin is there for them, the more used they will become to it. It becomes convenient to have Perrin there. Unless Perrin would undergo a radical change of personality, he would be a ruler who actually cared for ordinary people, quite a nice change from the typical king/queen, yes?

 

And there lies the key here. Perrin will of course not actively seek to build an empire. Reality will simply push him in that direction, and once he notices what is going on, it will be too late to change. Which makes him very likely to be the best post-TG ruler of them all. After all, power is best handled by people who does not want it for the sake of power.

[Durinax]

Perrin and faile are smart enoguh to encourage industry in TR, accept refuges. The only question is what will the tools who follow 'the way of the sword' or whatever, do with almost nothign to do in TR cause I cant see Perrin allowing much crime to happen and those tools like to fight

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on August 30, 2009, 06:20:43 AM

You got quotes for that, because all I remember is that it's stated that they're stubborn folk and if hardship strikes they might complain but they'll roll up their sleeves and get done what needs to be done.

 

 

"People who had to watch the hail beat their crops or the wolves take their lambs, and start over, no matter how many years it happened, did not give up easily. Most of those who did were long since gone." "...as if there weren't rocks everywhere in the Two Rivers." Both EotW 1, and chapter 49 has a reference to the "stubborn, stony soil of the Two Rivers." Hardship strikes frequently, hence those who don't role up their sleeves and get on with it when it does move on. The stubbornness comes from it being a hard place where they needed to be stubborn in order to survive. The wolves might be gone now, but the weather isn't, nor are the stones.

 

Your first quote merely states what I stated, as for your other ones. As for your second one, here is your full quote.

 

The land to the west was just as fertile, and the pastures there lush in most years, but only a handful of farms could be found in the Westwood. Even those few dwindled to none miles short of the Sand Hills, not to mention the Mountains of Mist, which rose above the Westwood treetops, distant but in plain sight from Emond's Field. Some said the land was too rocky, as if there were not rocks everywhere in the Two Rivers, and others said it was hard-luck land. A few muttered that there was no point getting any closer to the mountains than needs be. Whatever the reasons, only the hardiest men farmed in the Westwood.

 

Lush in most years, but no one farms them due to superstition. This comment only states that that land is no more rocky than anywhere else in the Two Rivers, and follows up with the fact that it is consitently lush and fertile, with only the occaisional aberation--which, by the way, is true of all farmland.

 

Your second quote, in full, is...

 

Teeth bared in a rictus snarl, he sought the void, and found it in the stony, stubborn soil of the Two Rivers. "Manetheren!" He screamed back at the trees till his throat ached. The heron-mark steel flashed in the strengthless sunlight. "Manetheren! Manetheren!"

 

This is clearly a reference to the blood-born stubborness of the people of the Two Rivers. The soil, in this case, is not land, but heritage. Rand found percieved strength in his belief of the heritage of his peoples stubborn refusal to give in. The "thorn in the dark ones hand and the bramble in his side" grew from that soil.

 

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Actually you drifted.

 

Hence your confusion as to what was being talked about.

 

How delightfully disengenuos.

 

 

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My scenario involves him very much NOT laying claim to her land in his own name, nor being in rebellion to her. Sorry.

 

Perrin is acting in his own name, not on behlaf of a higher authority. That's why they are coming to him. Both the people and Elayne will see that. And he will be laying claim to her land, eventually.

 

Your repeating yourself.

 

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That will be too late. They will be loyal to him by the end of the second year

 

She won't leave it that long.

 

And again. I offered reasons for these comments you know. If you want us to discuss them you have to address those reasons with evidence to why you think the opposite. 'No she won't!' is a valid position, but it is not an argument.

 

Feel free to asser that you simply disagree with me. I've no problem with this.

 

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That comment continued

 

I know, but that changes nothing. With regards to TG, they are allies, but once that is over and done with they are not united by a common enemy, they are divided. Thus, he is her enemy.

 

It does make you once again disengenuos since you sought to avoid dealing with it. But, for the moment lets focus on your new point--that past TG that comraderie would fail. I disagree. Their commen enemy post the Shadow is famine and anarchy. Their comraderie against the shadow supports that continuing to dealing with the effects of that confrontation. Perrin, once again, will not be kneeling to her, but he will once again be doing what needs to be done, things she needs to be done, but can't do.

 

But, now lets flash back, if you'd again like to try and pretend those points change nothing, let me put up your next comment, to which they exist to provide counter-argument to.

 

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Actually no it's not. There is no 'action', but rather the lack of action. There is a distinction in that,

 

And that distinction is irrelevant. If she asks him to kneel and he refuses, he is setting himself against her. Which makes him a rebel. And she will ask him to kneel once they meet. TG, if not before.

 

So, let me again, reiterate my full comment. "He is not her enemy in Andoran internal affairs, he simply won't subject himself to her. In a vacuum that would have meant he was her enemy since she is a monarch and he lives within land nominally claimed by her throne, however its not a vacuum and he IS her ally in the big stuff. TG and the leading of the Light."

 

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Actually you serve my point though--were my family starving or criminals stealing my television we would not be arguing--you'd be sitting at your computer and I'd be grabbing a knife, calling the cops, and in all honsety probably locking myself in the bathroom. I never suggested Elayne would like what Perrin was doing, nor even that she wouldn't have been planning to deal with it eventually. I simply say that she will set it aside in favour of more important matters, more immediate matters.

 

 

And I suggested that there will not be so many more immediate, more important matters that she will be unable to address this until the moment has passed. She will respect Perrin's integrity, but will still move to act against him, whether through military force or otherwise - other options are perhaps more likely, but still, she will act. Now, if Elayne can ally with Perrin, so they are both seen to help through the times of famine, then it diminishes the impact of Perrin's actions, thus reducing the chance of these areas breaking away. I have suggested this before. Perrin is not such a glory hound that he woould refuse her assistance, is he? Perrin says, "I must feed these starving people", and Elayne says "I'll help." Perrin says, "we must catch these bandits", and Elayne says "I'll help." And people see her helping, see the Queen's representatives helping, then they won't jump ship.

 

Again though, why would she reguard him as a threat? He is an ally. He has no intentions against her lands. He is doing what she needs to do, but doesn't have the resources or the time to do.

 

As for him refusing her assistance--of course he wouldn't. She, given he's taken care of it and that her resources will be stretched thin by then, will simply let him. Because he does not represent a threat to her.

 

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Before that he'll just be 'doing what needs to be done',

 

And so will she.

 

Precisely. That, indeed, is the heart of my point.

[benr]

It seems to me that Perrin is being underestimated here.  Power seems to come to him wherever he goes; now that Faille is back he will be able to concentrate on being the "slow but wise" guy he was before.  Others don't see the "slow" part; just the wise.  Alot of it has to do with being taveran (sp).

 

Will being taveran survive TG?  Will Rand?  If it does, and Rand doesn't (or leaves for the Aiel Waste) I could see Perrin as the next Artur Hawkwing. 

[Charlz Guybon]

I have to agree with Ares here. Luckers, you don't really seem to understand how feudalism works. Elayne can't be seen to let Perrin rule in his own right as lord of the Two Rivers without acknowledging her authority by swearing fealty to her. Were she to do so she would gravely undercut her authority. The Great Houses that were opposed to her would view it as weakness and would use it against her. The easiest solution to this is for Perrin to rule Saldea and swear fealty to Elayne as Lord of the Two Rivers just as William of Normadie reigned as the King of England and as the Duke of Normandy swore fealty to Philip the King of France. Even if this were to sow the seeds of conflict done the line it is by far the simplest solution to this problem.

 

If he does not sumbit, I as a Captain of the Queen's Guard will be forced to crush him like a grape, as I did the rebels besieging Caemlyn.

[Manjunathan]

I have to agree with Ares here. Luckers, you don't really seem to understand how feudalism works. Elayne can't be seen to let Perrin rule in his own right as lord of the Two Rivers without acknowledging her authority by swearing fealty to her. Were she to do so she would gravely undercut her authority. The Great Houses that were opposed to her would view it as weakness and would use it against her. The easiest solution to this is for Perrin to rule Saldea and swear fealty to Elayne as Lord of the Two Rivers just as William of Normadie reigned as the King of England and as the Duke of Normandy swore fealty to Philip the King of France. Even if this were to sew the seeds of conflict done the line it is by far the simplest solution to this problem.

 

If he does not sumbit, I as a Captain of the Queen's Guard will be forced to crush him like a grape, as I did the rebels besieging Caemlyn.

 

C'mon man, it is Two Rivers' people we are speaking of. Easiest way to put their back up would be to move against them in force. They may die to the last man b'fore giving up. And I don't think Perrin will swear to Elayne since he doesnot consider TR  a part of Andor. 

TR ppl will remain loyal to him b'coz in Perrin they see a man who saved them when they needed it the most. Elayne has a lot of work to do to ensure that sort of loyalty. Being ta'veren also will favour Perrin(i.e, if he is still  ta'veren after TG).

 

[Mr Ares]

The longer Perrin is there for them, the more used they will become to it. It becomes convenient to have Perrin there. Unless Perrin would undergo a radical change of personality, he would be a ruler who actually cared for ordinary people, quite a nice change from the typical king/queen, yes?

Well, if he is doing most of his ruling there via Alliandre, then his presence is a bit more distant. If Ghealdan was managing, and Alliandre asked for her freedom, why would he refuse? Unless the people took to the streets, demanding he remain. Although, that works both ways - they could take to the streets demanding he leave Ghealdan alone, that they be allowed to go their own way.

 

Perrin will of course not actively seek to build an empire. Reality will simply push him in that direction, and once he notices what is going on, it will be too late to change.

If he doesn't want an empire, he needn't have an empire. Saying "these people need my help now" doesn't translate to "these people will always need my help", or "these people will be willing to keep me around." Gratitude only extends so far. They might be quite happy with his help without it going any further, into the realms of accepting him as their King/Emperor/whatever. Furthermore, his empire need not outlive him. A personal union that won't last beyond the person. So it doesn't amount to redrawing the map, not in the long term.

 

Your first quote merely states what I stated.

No, it states more than you say. It doesn't just say they are stubborn, it tells us why. "No matter how many years it happened." Those who [gave up] were long since gone." It speaks to a frequency of hard times. Those who aren't stubborn, who don't just roll their sleeves up and carry on probably won't last there.

 

"Some said the land was too rocky, as if there were not rocks everywhere in the Two Rivers". Stony soil = bad, and also = present throughout the TR. It's a long way from a wasteland, but it's still not an easy place to make a living as a farmer.

 

This is clearly a reference to the blood-born stubborness of the people of the Two Rivers. The soil, in this case, is not land, but heritage.

The one comes from the other. A stubborn land breeds a stubborn people. That's why I posted it.

 

And again. I offered reasons for these comments you know.

Yes, and she has good reason not to ignore the issues there, and no real reason to do so. She might not be able to give it her full attention, that I will grant you, but not to do nothing, to take no action at all. She wants to unite her country, not to see parts of it taken away. Perrin is already a rebel, already holding power but owing no loyalty to her. That is a threat. Perrin might not be at the top of her list, but if he starts subverting her rule elsewhere, she will act. She needs to do something about him, and if he acts he will only increase as a priority, not decrease. It needn't take an army, or months, to sort out some arrangement. Elayne herslef and a retinue, Travel to meet Perrin, they could potentially be done in an afternoon. Is she really so pressed for time that she could do nothing about this rogue lord? If he doesn't have to swear to her, why should anyone else? His mere exitence is a threat. She cannot afford to do nothing about a threat to her rule for two years. It is that simple. And there are courses of ction she could take that would bring him into the fold before the end of the first. So these people have no reason to leave Andor and join Perrin.

 

Their commen enemy post the Shadow is famine and anarchy.

And they can work together to combat that. Why should Elayne ignore it? And Perrin is a sign of that anarchy. He's just some guy who has set himself up as a lord, and is now winning over the rest of her country. She has no reason to ignore him.

 

So, let me again, reiterate my full comment. "He is not her enemy in Andoran internal affairs, he simply won't subject himself to her. In a vacuum that would have meant he was her enemy since she is a monarch and he lives within land nominally claimed by her throne, however its not a vacuum and he IS her ally in the big stuff. TG and the leading of the Light."

Your full comment is unimportant. TG changes nothing, as he is still her enemy in Andoran internal affairs. He might be an enemy she is willing to work with in the short term, but he is still an enemy. Yes, they share a common, and greater foe. They will not be fighting each other when TG looms. But that changes nothing. They are enemies. Now, maybe they are enemies who can come to terms before they come to blows - not unreasonable. But until they come to terms, they are still enemies, even if they are enemies on the same side.

 

Again though, why would she reguard him as a threat?

Because he is. His mere existence threatens the stability of her rule. Why should other lords follow her? What's in it for them? Why not follow him instead? Or get others to follow them. And others still can use it to help form alliances against Elayne - after all she cannot do anything to stop this rebel lord (even if she has too much respect for him to think of him this way, others might not share the view), and therefore she is a weak Queen. Support Lord/Lady X in his/her bid for the throne, and they will stomp on this. Even if he doesn't mean to be, he is a threat to her rule, because others can use his existence against her. If she does something about him, she neutralises this weapon before it can be used against her. If she doesn't, she will suffer the consequences.

 

As for him refusing her assistance--of course he wouldn't.

So, they work alongside one another. So why are people so eager to desert Andor, when it was Andor who helped them? Their Queen?

 

Before that he'll just be 'doing what needs to be done',

And so will she.

Precisely. That, indeed, is the heart of my point.

The heart of your point is that she will leave it to someone else.

 

I have to agree with Ares here.

Wow, someone supports me.

The easiest solution to this is for Perrin to rule Saldea and swear fealty to Elayne as Lord of the Two Rivers just as William of Normadie reigned as the King of England and as the Duke of Normandy swore fealty to Philip the King of France. Even if this were to sew the seeds of conflict done the line it is by far the simplest solution to this problem.

In the short term, most definitely. Is Perrin so proud he couldn't bend knee once? Shouldn't be too hard to come to an agreement. She could even agree to give the TR a degree of autonomy similar to what it has now, minimal interference from "central government".

 

If he does not sumbit, I as a Captain of the Queen's Guard will be forced to crush him like a grape, as I did the rebels besieging Caemlyn.

I wish you the best of luck with exterminating the rebels, good sir.

 

Easiest way to put their back up would be to move against them in force.

Then negotiate before moving in in force. As the whole point of war is to force the other guy to the negotiating table on favourable terms, it makes sense to see if he's on favourable terms before you start fighting.

They may die to the last man b'fore giving up.

Then kill them all. To the last man.

And I don't think Perrin will swear to Elayne since he doesnot consider TR  a part of Andor.

Given the choice between a fight that will see a lot of people - on both sides - killed, and a peaceful solution, which do you think Perrin would prefer? She's not going to be offering terms that are too onerous.

[Manjunathan]

Easiest way to put their back up would be to move against them in force.

Then negotiate before moving in in force. As the whole point of war is to force the other guy to the negotiating table on favourable terms, it makes sense to see if he's on favourable terms before you start fighting.

Of course, they will most likely negotiate first. But it is unlikely that Elayne will convince TR ppl to accept her as the queen. They are used to their freedom and won't give that up easily. Same for Perrin. I don't recall him bending his back b'fore anyone and I dont see him swearing fealty to anyone.

 

They may die to the last man b'fore giving up

Then kill them all. To the last man.

Something I am sure Elayne won't do(even if she have the resources needed, which I doubt).

 

 

And I don't think Perrin will swear to Elayne since he doesnot consider TR  a part of Andor.

Given the choice between a fight that will see a lot of people - on both sides - killed, and a peaceful solution, which do you think Perrin would prefer? She's not going to be offering terms that are too onerous.

Here's another way of looking at it.

Given the choice between a fight that will see a lot of people - on both sides - killed, and a peaceful solution, which do you think Elayne would prefer? Letting TR go is not that onerous given that it has been virtually Independent for many decades.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Of course, they will most likely negotiate first. But it is unlikely that Elayne will convince TR ppl to accept her as the queen.

Why? Given all she needs is for Perrin to kneel. Perrin is her subject. They don't need to lose any freedom over it. And Perrin has had no cause to kneel before. But he has taken a part of Andor, and set himself up as a lord. Of course he should be kneeling, in those circumstances.

 

Given the choice between a fight that will see a lot of people - on both sides - killed, and a peaceful solution, which do you think Elayne would prefer?

Peaceful solution. But if Perrin refuses to be reasonable, it will be war.

Letting TR go is not that onerous given that it has been virtually Independent for many decades.

But we are not talking about just letting the TR go. We are talking about Perrin taking Western Andor with him. About half the country. And Elayne is proud of her mother's refusal to give up so much as a square mile of Andoran territory. And there are important economic assets in the Mountains. And it would make her seem weak if Perrin doesn't kneel, and carries on ruling, even moreso if he takes the predicted swathe of Andor. Personal, political and economic reasons to act, no reason not to.

[Manjunathan]

 

 

Letting TR go is not that onerous given that it has been virtually Independent for many decades.

But we are not talking about just letting the TR go. We are talking about Perrin taking Western Andor with him. About half the country. And Elayne is proud of her mother's refusal to give up so much as a square mile of Andoran territory. And there are important economic assets in the Mountains. And it would make her seem weak if Perrin doesn't kneel, and carries on ruling, even moreso if he takes the predicted swathe of Andor. Personal, political and economic reasons to act, no reason not to.

Western Andor??!!.Now let me get this straight. I am talking about freedom of TR and TR alone. And trying to rule over TR against their wishes is something akin to colonialism.

 

Her pride is wasted against TR stubbornness.

 

 

Of course, they will most likely negotiate first. But it is unlikely that Elayne will convince TR ppl to accept her as the queen.

Why? Given all she needs is for Perrin to kneel. Perrin is her subject.

No one in TR(including Perrin) consider themselves Andor's subjects and I'd say they are right because Andoran queens have failed in their duty to protect them multiple times.

But he has taken a part of Andor, and set himself up as a lord. Of course he should be kneeling, in those circumstances.

All Perrin did was keep his neighbuors and friends from getting slaughtered.

As for setting himself as a Lord, TR ppl set him as their Lord, you could say he is their democratically elected leader...almost.

 

Peaceful solution. But if Perrin refuses to be reasonable, it will be war.

You mean, if Elayne refuses to be reasonable, it will be war.