Is it possible that the DO isn't real?

[nnokwoodeye]

I have been thinking, what if the DO really is just a mindless source of energy? Maybe it just seems sapient because it has somehow been imprinted with the personality of the first person who tapped into it, the nihilistic ishy. Maybe there is no eternal struggle between good and evil, ishy just expected to find something like the DO in the bore, so the power provided a being that suited his expectations.

 

Does this theory make sense?

 

[Master Norry]

No.

[chuckievi]

I think the theory in general makes sense, however I don't think it is plausible in the context of the Wheel of Time.

[Builder]

Seriously, both my bullshit and fantasy detector just went through the roof. Of course the Dark One exists. It would kinda kill the entire series if we found out that he didn't exist in the 12 book.

[nnokwoodeye]

I didn't say he doesn't exist just that he isn't real. In my theory ishy is the dark one (since the wheel spin him every cycle to end the AOL), he just doesn't know it because he has some kind of strange split personality disorder / Superiority complex.

[Builder]

I dunno. It sounds waaay too fantastic to be true. I don't think RJ was going for that when he wrote the series.

[Gentled Ben]

I didn't say he doesn't exist just that he isn't real. In my theory ishy is the dark one (since the wheel spin him every cycle to end the AOL), he just doesn't know it because he has some kind of strange split personality disorder / Superiority complex.

There's no evidence that Ishamael is tied to the Wheel, and indeed, all the evidence points to the Pattern only spinning out forces for the Light. The only suggestion we have that Ishamael is a recurring champion of the shadow is his own assertion, and as the author himself said in reference to that very assertion, Ishamael is a "lying liar who lies."

[Builder]

Ishamael returns time after time because nobody has permanently killed him yet and he has eternal life.

[Gentled Ben]

None of the Chosen have eternal life because the Dark One hasn't won yet. It is a conditional promise, and the conditions have not been met.

[Nasty Butler]

I have been thinking, what if the DO really is just a mindless source of energy? Maybe it just seems sapient because it has somehow been imprinted with the personality of the first person who tapped into it, the nihilistic ishy. Maybe there is no eternal struggle between good and evil, ishy just expected to find something like the DO in the bore, so the power provided a being that suited his expectations.

 

Does this theory make sense?

 

I would say no since we have heard speech from both the creator(supposedly) in EotW and the DO in LoC.

[Builder]

None of the Chosen have eternal life because the Dark One hasn't won yet. It is a conditional promise, and the conditions have not been met.

 

I personally think that prize is irrelevant because all you would have to do is basically do what the DO tells you to do and you get to live.

[fikkie77]

I have been thinking, what if the DO really is just a mindless source of energy? Maybe it just seems sapient because it has somehow been imprinted with the personality of the first person who tapped into it, the nihilistic ishy. Maybe there is no eternal struggle between good and evil, ishy just expected to find something like the DO in the bore, so the power provided a being that suited his expectations.

 

Does this theory make sense?

 

No, how did Aginor, Balthamel and Lanfear get recycled without the DO?

 

And why do you think that Ishy was the first to tap into the True Power? It might be Lanfear, who was the one to drill the bore, but we don't know for sure. Nor do we know who tapped into it afterwards. We only know that Ishy did quite often.

[Gentled Ben]

None of the Chosen have eternal life because the Dark One hasn't won yet. It is a conditional promise, and the conditions have not been met.

 

I personally think that prize is irrelevant because all you would have to do is basically do what the DO tells you to do and you get to live.

Yet all of the other Chosen in the AOL did not get to live, despite having apparently followed the DO's instructions. They all died out as the War of Power wound down and The Breaking ran its terrible course. Only the Chosen who were trapped in the Bore with him lived, and only because they were suspended in time. Immortality comes after the DO's victory, and there is no evidence that the Pattern has ever spun out a champion for the shadow. Ishy lied.

[mb]

I didn't say he doesn't exist just that he isn't real.

Is not real & does not exist, those two seem the same thing in this case.

 

 

The Dark One resurrected Balthamel/Aginor/Ishamael & maybe Lanfear (or more accurately put their souls into different bodies); a non-real/non-existent entity cannot do that.

The Dark One affected the weather of at least the main continent; a non-real/non-existent entity would not be able to do that either.

With out the Dark One, the miasma & ghosts and True Power would likely not exist.

 

[Alex Wan]

In the Lord of Chaos prologue, Demandred goes to the Pit of Doom and hears the DO's words in his head.  Specific words implying intelligence.

[albino_dog]

So if he isn't real then wtf is Shaidar Haran?

[Dunderdan]

I like this idea, its a fun alternative perspective, but theres a 0% chance of it corresponding to RJs plans. Thanks for the post though :)

 

Side note: I dont like either that Ishamael claims hes fought "this fight" many times before. I am under the impression that Ishamael is originally from AoL which was the last time "this fight" was fought, which to me should mean that TG should be only his second time fighting the fight? Ive so far accepted his claim as either an outright lie or a prosaic statement including himself the same way a team member takes credit for team victories done decades ago by other team members.

 

 

[t-bag]

I always thought it was their souls that had battled for many turnings of the wheel.

[Mr Ares]

Ishy is a lying liar who lies.

[Titan Orion]

Ishamael returns time after time because nobody has permanently killed him yet and he has eternal life.

 

Ishamael never left. He died when Rand killed him but the Dark One reincarnated him; he hasnt returned time after time at all. He was only partially bound, this I believe to him no longer being fully human as the Forsaken say. Ishamaels rantings about himself fighting Lews Therin was Ishamael thinking he himself actually was Baalzamon.

 

 

Taken from a WinespringBrother interview with RJ, regarding Shaidar Haran.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=17

 

It’s as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature...it is the Dark One in shadowy form

 

What does everyone make of that passage? I may very well be misinterpretting, but isnt it impossible for both of those statements to be true? Did RJ correct himself, or slip up, or what?

[Tel Janin]

So if he isn't real then wtf is Shaidar Haran?

 

A really big Myrdraal who gets his kicks by 'breaking in' fallen Forsaken.  Are you trying to intimate that he is an avatar of the Dark One?

 

Ishy is a lying liar who lies.

 

Not only that, but he's been known to use a falsehood on occasion...  ;D

[Gentled Ben]

Ishamael returns time after time because nobody has permanently killed him yet and he has eternal life.

 

Ishamael never left. He died when Rand killed him but the Dark One reincarnated him; he hasnt returned time after time at all. He was only partially bound, this I believe to him no longer being fully human as the Forsaken say. Ishamaels rantings about himself fighting Lews Therin was Ishamael thinking he himself actually was Baalzamon.

 

 

Taken from a WinespringBrother interview with RJ, regarding Shaidar Haran.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=17

 

It’s as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature...it is the Dark One in shadowy form

 

What does everyone make of that passage? I may very well be misinterpretting, but isnt it impossible for both of those statements to be true? Did RJ correct himself, or slip up, or what?

I don't see what confuses you, Titan Orion. It seems that RJ is just phrasing the same thing in two different ways. Twice, he is saying that Shadar Haran is the Dark One's pale, diluted presence. He is the DO in shadowy form. He is the shadowy form of the DO, because the DO is able to project his form, to a limited extent, into Shadar Haran. Because the DO can somewhat project his essence into the body of Shadar Haran, Shadar Haran can be considered, to some extent, the essence of the DO. Am I missing what you're talking about?

[Ashaman Kovan]

Is this what we've come to?.... :'(

[torrente]

I have been wondering this too.

 

I think he's still real in that he's a dark power . . . but I wonder if he will ever take physical form and enter the Pattern himself. 

 

 

[Durinax]

This is interesting. . . personnally I think that it is awesome theory, coinciding with the chaos theory, kind of. . .

 

It is true that the DO is a potentially infinite energy source, I take it with this theory that the energy is bound within the world and should it be released that the ultimate release of energy would snuff out all life. And that the energy goes towards the destructive side of the spectrum because of the Chaos theory (all things gravitate away from order and towards chaos) which fits in with the DO. But the creator 'voice' is a big speedbump to this. But then again LTT's attempt to completely seal the DO could have imprinted his personallity (a lesser amount than the dark alter ego) upon the energy source thus explaining why the creator is less prevalent than the DO. The backlash against Saidin could be an unstable energy source exploding upon an relatively stable one, with a constant leak upon the stable one.

 

BTW wasnt it Lanfear that drilled the bore, thus her personallity would have been imprinted if any. Which coincides, after all Lanfear is a dark personality, who is power hungry and thus controlling over anyone else who has a bit of power along with being overly possessive.