How could Salidar legitemately oppose Elaida?

[bob bobato]

Something that's been bugging me. The Salidar Aes Sedai say that Elaida is a false Amyrlin, because her raising was barely legal and contrary to all custom. And yet, their own Amyrlin is also barely legal, and could only have been raised because of a loophole in the law. So, how is it that Salidar has the moral right to oppose Elaida on legal terms, when their own Amyrlin was raised much the same way?

[mb]

Same way?  Elaida did scheming before she was raised and purposely eliminated Blue sitters.

The rebel Aes Sedia chose someone that knew nothing about their plans until they told a few minutes before the ceremony.

 

[bob bobato]

It's not the scheming that matters. Elaida's raising was barely legal, because the full Hall didn't meet and it was rushed. Egwene wasn't fully legal either- she was only able to become a candidate because the lawmakers didn't bother to mention that the Amyrlin had to be Aes Sedai.  The Blue Ajah, honestly I forgot, but all the same, the Blues were only 'disbanded' after they fled, and it doesn't have that much to do with their claim that Elaida is a false Amyrlin. I think it would be better to change my question from 'how could they legitimately oppose Elaida' to 'how could they legitimately claim Elaida is false'.

[zanotam]

It's not the scheming that matters. Elaida's raising was barely legal, because the full Hall didn't meet and it was rushed. Egwene wasn't fully legal either- she was only able to become a candidate because the lawmakers didn't bother to mention that the Amyrlin had to be Aes Sedai.  The Blue Ajah, honestly I forgot, but all the same, the Blues were only 'disbanded' after they fled, and it doesn't have that much to do with their claim that Elaida is a false Amyrlin. I think it would be better to change my question from 'how could they legitimately oppose Elaida' to 'how could they legitimately claim Elaida is false'.

 

The point is that neither sides is really legal. Basically, the two sides are having hissy fits and sticking their tongues out at eachother and going "na na na na na we can't hear you!" and on and on. This is a case of the victor writing history.

[Gentled Ben]

It's not the scheming that matters. Elaida's raising was barely legal, because the full Hall didn't meet and it was rushed. Egwene wasn't fully legal either- she was only able to become a candidate because the lawmakers didn't bother to mention that the Amyrlin had to be Aes Sedai.  The Blue Ajah, honestly I forgot, but all the same, the Blues were only 'disbanded' after they fled, and it doesn't have that much to do with their claim that Elaida is a false Amyrlin. I think it would be better to change my question from 'how could they legitimately oppose Elaida' to 'how could they legitimately claim Elaida is false'.

It has everything to do with the rebels claim against Elaida. It is the basis of their contention.

[Nightstrike]

Both raisings were legal. Both raisings used the law. Now it's up to each individual Aes Sedai which Amyrlin Seat they support. Eventually one of them will manage to triumph over the other, but it will not be done through their law.

[silent_spectre]

Aes Sedai inner workings are not known to the outside world, so it is more a duel for control.  It would appear that most nations are preferring to sit on the sidelines until one has dealt with the other, as picking a side before the outcome could have bad consequences.  The "legality" of who is the rightful Amyrlin Seat is also up for grabs.

 

Elaida rushed her ascension and barely held to the customs and the laws, if she did at all, as there seems to be three sides two don't agree. 

 

Egwene became Amyrlin through a technicality, but can be supported be the laws barely, again the three sides 2 of which don't agree.

 

It will more than likely turn out that the Aes Sedai will do what is best for the Aes Sedai and the White Tower.  Elaida has made a bad run of things both on her own and through the manipulations of Massana, via the black ajah.  Egwene has created a core of followers and creates more sympathy amongst novices, accepted, and sisters through her skillful maneuvering and even uses imprisonment to her advantage.

 

So to wrap up this ever lengthening post both sides have tower law on their side, however tenuous, but it is up for the two opposing factions to settle their differences through diplomacy, war, or possibly the loss of one of the sides' Amyrlin. (I think Elaida would go insane if introduced to the adam, but personally I think she'll die fighting the Seanchan which lets her exit with grace, after all love or hate her, she isn't evil, just doing what she thinks is right.)

[Nasty Butler]

Although I must say that I'm bugged that nobody in the Salidar camp seems bothered that their reason for taking down Elaida and the Reds is based on a lie (The Reds told Logain to declare himself and then gentled him).  You'd think we how justicey Egwene is she would be atleast somewhat bothered by it. 

[Elgee]

The Salidar group don't know that it is a lie. Siuan told it to them as truth, but they had forgotten that she can lie now, since she was stilled.

[Nasty Butler]

The Salidar group don't know that it is a lie. Siuan told it to them as truth, but they had forgotten that she can lie now, since she was stilled.

Don't more people other than Leane and Siuan know about it though?  I coulda sworn that Egwene and the Teen Girl Squad(Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne) all knew about it as well.  I'm surprised that none of them have had a strong feeling of guilt over it.

[Titan Orion]

The Salidar group don't know that it is a lie. Siuan told it to them as truth, but they had forgotten that she can lie now, since she was stilled.

Don't more people other than Leane and Siuan know about it though?  I coulda sworn that Egwene and the Teen Girl Squad(Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne) all knew about it as well.  I'm surprised that none of them have had a strong feeling of guilt over it.

 

The people who know about it are those who wish more than most to pull Elaida down. The Supergirls want Aes Sedai to support Rand and they know that will never truly happen until Elaida is dealt with and the Tower whole again. The plan with Logain was to give people another reason to oppose Elaida, to set the Salidar Aes Sedai firmly against herwhen they were at first not sure what to do. Siuan is a very resourceful woman; who would have known she'd end up using a former False Dragon the way she has?

[Gentled Ben]

I really think the lie is restricted to Siuan, Leane, and Logain. Also, the Aes Sedai in Salidar fled Elaida before the lie; they were already opposed to her. They are actively trying to pull her down because Egwene made them take action. They knew about the lie before Egwene was summoned to them, but they would have sat in Salidar until Elaida restored the Blue and allowed them all to return without penalty regardless had she not conned them into giving her wartime authority.

[Mr Ares]

So, how is it that Salidar has the moral right to oppose Elaida on legal terms, when their own Amyrlin was raised much the same way?

In times of conflict the law falls silent.

[Paradox]

And yet, their own Amyrlin is also barely legal...

 

Egwene the barely legal :P

 

But yeah from what we know of tower law you need sitters from every Ajah to rise a Amyrlin. Which both of them lacked.

[Nightstrike]

But yeah from what we know of tower law you need sitters from every Ajah to rise a Amyrlin. Which both of them lacked.

We probably don't know the exact phrasing of all the paragraphs of the Tower law. If they needed sitters from every Ajah, then Elaida would be completely illegal. Not barely legal. I say both were raised legally according to the exact phrasing of the law. They can choose which one they support.

[Paradox]

You're right we do not know all the paragraphs of tower law and there might very well be a loophole. And since the Aes Sedai seems to think of them both as legal, they are probably right. But,as I said, from what WE know* none of them are legal.

 

*"The greater consensus requires that every sister who is present must stand, and that a minimum of eleven Sitters be present; The presence of at least one Sitter from each Ajah is also required"

[balefireruinssteaks]

Undoubtedly Elaida figured that it was no longer necessary to have a Sitter from every Ajah when she blamed Siuan and perhaps the Blue Ajah (else why would she have disbanded the entire Ajah instead of just going after one of them?) so she probably felt she was within the law when she was raised without the Blue Ajah Sitters.

 

Also, it seems that many Aes Sedai agree, including Cadsuane.  When she confronts Bera and Kiruna, she mentions Elaida as a "lawfully raised Amyrlin".

[Mr Ares]

Undoubtedly Elaida figured that it was no longer necessary to have a Sitter from every Ajah when she blamed Siuan and perhaps the Blue Ajah (else why would she have disbanded the entire Ajah instead of just going after one of them?) so she probably felt she was within the law when she was raised without the Blue Ajah Sitters.

But legally, she was in no position to abolish the Blue until she had been raised.

[draconian]

Undoubtedly Elaida figured that it was no longer necessary to have a Sitter from every Ajah when she blamed Siuan and perhaps the Blue Ajah (else why would she have disbanded the entire Ajah instead of just going after one of them?) so she probably felt she was within the law when she was raised without the Blue Ajah Sitters.

 

Also, it seems that many Aes Sedai agree, including Cadsuane.  When she confronts Bera and Kiruna, she mentions Elaida as a "lawfully raised Amyrlin".

Elaida is for Cadsuane purposes a "lawfully raised Amyrlin". Although siuan was never properly deposed which imo means neither r lawfully raised b/c the post was not properly released.

 

My bet is both lose.

How? a hall of male and female channelers raise him as the Tamrylin though to shut up every he would nd the ring of tamrylin.

 

[JenniferL]

When deposing an Amyrlin, you do not need the votes of the Ajah she was raised from. So the Blue Ajah wasn't called for that sitting.

[Tyrell]

Do you not still need votes from every Ajah to raise one? Elaida did disband the Blue after her ascension giving her ex post facto legitimacy, but really her raising was just as dodgy as Egwene's.

 

Her kangeroo court trial of Suian was absolutely legal in the fine details, but morally bankrupt and showing exactly how dumb the WT's internal legal system is. Any matter that important should require the full hall to sit, no excuses, no loopholes. I find it absolutely ridiculous that any motion that could be defeated before a full hall can nonetheless be passed by a smaller group of sitters acting in collusion.

[Graendals favourite]

I can't recall now, this is discussed somewhat in Egwene povs, what is custom and what law when it comes to informing Sitters of a Sitting. There may also be different provisions for the Hall sitting to depose or raise an Amyrlin, as there may be different laws governing them and ordinary Sittings. There may be differences in whether the Hall is sitting on its own, when as I recall custom says the Amyrlin must be informed, or when the Amyrlin calls the sitting. Though the customs in normal practice can be stronger than law, Elaida could have ignored them and still be legally raised. Going against custom would explain the argument of her following the bare letter of the law.

 

The greater consensus really is not that much larger than the lesser consensus, if not all Sitters are informed of the Sitting. After all, the greater consensus requires uniformity, but only of the minimum 11 Sitters who are present, while the lesser requires, is it the same 11 out of 21 Sitters voting for it nevermind how many are present. Nevertheless, we know Elaida only informed those Sitters she was sure would vote for deposing Siuan, and dared not risk informing more than the number needed in case any might vote against. After this, those Sitters who were not informed of the Sitting, I understand they fleed the city, probably they had good reason to fear their safety. Anyway, with them gone, Elaida could well inform all Sitters in the Tower of the sitting and receive their unanimous support for the Amyrlin Seat, and these happened to be those who deposed Siuan plus Seaine.

 

Actually, what might have happened could have been that the Hall declared the fleen Sitters no longer Sitters, so that they were not Sitters at all after they had fleed. Then Elaida was put forward as Amyrlin, and probably this could not be delayed even to name new Sitters, and only after Elaida was Amyrlin could new Sitters be chosen for the Hall.

[Mr Ares]

Although siuan was never properly deposed

Actually, Siuan's getting deposed was entirely legal.

 

a hall of male and female channelers raise him as the Tamrylin though to shut up every he would nd the ring of tamrylin.

Two questions: who is this "him", and what is a "Tamrylin"?

 

Do you not still need votes from every Ajah to raise one?

From what we are told, you should, yet no-one in the series criticises Elaida's legitimacy on those grounds - in fact, she is generally accepted as being lawfully raised, even by those who oppose her. Perhaps she found a loophole. As she introduced the two proposals (depose Siuan, replace with Elaida) together, perhaps it required only the Sitters who would need to be there for the deposing. So the Blues didn't need to be informed of Siuan going down, but Elaida going up was made part and parcel of that, so if they didn't need to be informed for one part, they didn't need to be informed for any.

[Luckers]

On the issue of how Elaida was raised--Graendal's Favourite is correct. The law does not require all Ajah's be represented, it only requires the Greater Consensus of those who are there[LoC--35--In The Hall of Sitters] in a legal seating. A seating of the Hall requires only eleven Sitters be present.

 

Elaida's raising was therefore lawful, if not noble.

 

The key to all this--both Elaida and Egwene being raised, and Siuan being deposed--is that none of these things were technically illegal. Which, by definition, makes them legal.

 

Two questions: who is this "him", and what is a "Tamrylin"?

 

Tamyrlin was a person--reputedly the first channeler. The First Amongst Servants wore his/her ring as a sign of office.

 

But I suspect the point you were making was just that 'the Tamrylin' was not nessasarily a title for the First Amongst Servants.

[Chernabog]

On the issue of how Elaida was raised--Graendal's Favourite is correct. The law does not require all Ajah's be represented, it only requires the Greater Consensus of those who are there[LoC--35--In The Hall of Sitters] in a legal seating. A seating of the Hall requires only eleven Sitters be present.

 

ACoS Glossary states this for the Greater Consensus:

 

The Greater Consensus requires that every sister who is present must stand, and that a minimum of eleven Sitters be present; the presence of at least one Sitter from each Ajah is also required, except when the matter before the Hall is the removal of an Amyrlin or Keeper, in which case the Ajah from which she was raised will not be informed of the vote until after it has been taken

 

So, for the vote to raise Elaida it's assumed that these Sitters voted to raise her.

 

Pevara and Teslyn for Red

Sedore and Doesine for Yellow

Yukiri and Evanellien for Gray

Talene and Rubinde for Green

Saerin for Brown

Velina for White

 

I'm assuming that a third Red Sitter replaced Elaida and was an eleventh vote, since the list comes up one vote short for Lesser Consensus. Also, there were no Blues present when it's stated that the presence of at least one was required for the Greater. Unless Alviarin had some Black Ajah Blue fill in, Elaida is lacking that vote just like Egwene is lacking the vote from a Red Sitter.